Controlling and aiming with the A-164 and Neophon

[mausAU 10]

How exactly does one aim at an enemy to line up for a strafing run in these?

Coming in from a height and a distance, I can't see a damn thing until I fly past my desired target and see green tracer.

There's got to be a practical way to aim for effect in them, but I can't work it out. Firing off guided AG missiles and then landing for a rearm seems to be about as much use as I can find for them - compared to the F/A-18 and Su-35 E mod they seem kind of bad by comparison.

Any info on this? Anyone been able to do gun runs in one with repeatable success?

Thanks :)

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Edit: There's a bug when flying them - I tried three times in the A-164 and twice in the Neophron to achieve a target using the cannon, with no hits on anything, tried a fourth time and got an immediate target lock on all sorts of stuff all over the map I'm playing. Anyone else get this?

Also, the A-164 handles like a pig when trying for precise aim, it's more dangerous than the weapons it carries. Yeah?

Edited March 20, 2014 by mausAU

[dwaight 17]

Yup, i've noticed that too.

[roshnak 41]

How exactly does one aim at an enemy to line up for a strafing run in these?

Coming in from a height and a distance, I can't see a damn thing until I fly past my desired target and see green tracer.

I think this is probably a problem of view distance. I find that it helps to pick out landmarks in the terrain to reference as aiming points.

Firing off guided AG missiles and then landing for a rearm seems to be about as much use as I can find for them

This is pretty much how CAS is expected to work in conventional conflicts. You don't typically expect aircraft to use guns on ground targets (even the A-10).

Also, the A-164 handles like a pig when trying for precise aim, it's more dangerous than the weapons it carries. Yeah?

Well, I know the A-164 has a trim problem right now, where the nose always wants to dip. This can make it a bit hard to aim.

Other than that, when using a mouse, I like to change the x-axis so that it only controls roll. The way it is now, it yaws if you only move the mouse a small amount, and you don't really want to be using yaw when lining up for guns.

[flex 1]

i watched an ai fly this thing.. he crashed because of the wipping^^

[squirrel0311 16]

Well I agree that the controls are wonky but it’s still doable. I set up a mission today with 4 BTR’s, 4 Tanks, 4 Marids, 2 HMG Ifrits, and 1 Tigris AA in the field near…Therlsa? ….Something like that, over by the dirt airfield.

My first run I got shot down but I scored quite a few kills.

1 Tigris AA = AG missile

4 BTR’s = AG missiles

1 Tank = AG missiles

2 tanks = 3 Bombs

2 Marids = rockets and guns

2 ifrits = Guns.

I was shot down trying to kill a Marid APC with a dive bombing run. Haha

2nd run I crashed chasing down another dang Marid but the results were similar.

3rd run I killed them all but I had to go back and pick up the Yak because my A-10 was smoking.

For the most part I think the General CAS rules still apply.

1. Stay above 1km when in normal flight and when looking for targets.

2. Maintain speed after the dive and use it to get the heck out of there before they blow the doodie outta ya bootie!

3. Try to stay above 300m minimum when pulling out of a dive/attack run unless you’re using the terrain as cover.

4. Try to fly away from the threat in a direction that causes them to have to traverse and elevate… (Fly diagonally…at least that’s how I seem to take the least hits.)

5. Know your target, what threat they pose to you, and the best weapon to deal with that threat.

Mobile Anti-Air, Anything with a big AUTO CANNON, Tanks (Mostly for realisms sake.)= Air Ground missiles

Light armored vehicles (Hunters, Ifrits) = AP Rockets/Guns/Bombs

Soft targets(Trucks and Infantry) = HE rockets, Guns and Bombs

Basically just ask yourself, “What happens when I miss?†(Obviously all these weapons can kill the threats mentioned above but the key is to do it quickly and with the least amount of possible danger.)

6. Don’t take unnecessary risk.

As for actually spotting targets, yeah the view is a little stifling but you can still do it. Just stay pretty high up and keep one wing tilted down. (Fly on your side and use your rudder to help orbit.)

Just like in real CAS Missions… The pilot circles and stares at the grid until he gets a positive ID on the target. He notes the land marks and other important information….and calls “Wings Level†to let troops on the ground know he’s starting his attack. (Sometimes they say that.)

Also USE YOUR MAP! Fly over on your side and spot the target, quickly put a mark down of where you could easily begin your attack, circle around and go.

I think that’s one of the main things that people overlook when they talk about the A-10. The A-10 is an old aircraft; it’s one of the few aircraft in the inventory that you actually have to fly. Meaning it doesn’t have all the fancy computers and junk that do everything for you. A-10 pilots still use maps and plot grids on their kneed boards, I know this is the upgraded version but the map will always be a valuable tool…especially one that tracks your position!

This is pretty much how CAS is expected to work in conventional conflicts. You don't typically expect aircraft to use guns on ground targets (even the A-10).

YEP! Pretty much… I wouldn’t say they don’t expect the A-10 to use its gun since it’s one of the main focal points of the aircraft but it depends on what you’re trying to kill.

As I tried to explain above….It’s about RISK MITIGATION….Something that most gamers even the realsim ones seem to often overlook. You don’t swoop in 50m off the deck for an awesome rocket and gun run against a mobile AA vehicle when you have guided missles. Just like how you don’t watch 3 helicopters ahead of you get shot down while trying to land in one spot and say, “Duh…Ok guys…we’re landing in a hot LZ.†......or better yet, say that and then try to land with Auto Hover. haha

Oh another thing I noticed….you can’t here rounds hitting your aircraft. :/

I was flying along and suddenly noticed my screen turning fuzzy, I switched to third person and saw black smoke pouring from my engines…apparently I’d been shot a number of times yet my HULL indicator was still White.

[lao fei mao 21]

If you use keyboard and mouse to fly the hog, press"R" to reveal the target( a green square), then adjust your flying gesture until the pipper upon the target marker(better do this from 2000meters away), keep the gesture and do a minor adjust, when getting close to the target within about 600 meters, press the mouse left button to zoom in, fire the cannon.....good to go.

If you use joystick, aiming would be more easy.

Using cannon to engage ground targets is much fun than AG missile.

[Crielaard 435]

In real life you wont hear bullets impact your airframe. The only indication you have are warning lights if a system is hit. Or your wingman noticing the damage.

I once experienced a bad release of droptanks, it hit the horizontal stabiliser breaking of half of the tail. We never noticed until we were back on the grpund and the crewchief was looking at us like this: :butbut:

Ill post a video asap on how gun attacks should be flown.

[squirrel0311 16]

In real life you wont hear bullets impact your airframe. The only indication you have are warning lights if a system is hit. Or your wingman noticing the damage.

I once experienced a bad release of droptanks, it hit the horizontal stabiliser breaking of half of the tail. We never noticed until we were back on the grpund and the crewchief was looking at us like this: :butbut:

Yeah for behind and on the wings I can understand but I'm talking about the cockpit. My screen was turning blurry and when I got out I was covered in blood and had to abra kadabra myself back to health. Not to mention the smallest thing that could have hit me was the ...30mm? Or is it 20mm on the Marids. I would expect at least a thunk or tink of somekind if it got me in the bathtub.

On top of that, I figure that if you sustained enough damage for your aircraft to pour black smoke from the engines then you'd probably get a light of some kind.

Maybe there is something on the dash that I wasn't paying attention to. I never really looked....

Does anyone know what the Aircraft looks like when the HULL light is Yellow or Red? Mine just looked burned...

Edited March 29, 2014 by Squirrel0311

[mordeaniischaos 3]

I'm pretty sure most CAS is performed with input from the ground forces calling in the CAS. They give references and call out targets, paint targets with laser, smoke targets, etc. If you can't see it, you likely shouldn't be engaging it based on what you can see with your eyes. Guns aren't, as far as I know, for engaging infantry that you have a clear picture of from the air, unless you've got your cameras on those targets to help with targeting.

Theoretically, there would be PiP screens that would give you a good picture of the ground, but that sort of things is pretty hard to do well in the ArmA engine because it would have to get a good deal more complex or a good bit less useful.

And if you're flying, you need to have your view distance pumped up. If you're in MP, don't bother flying if the mission doesn't have a way to increase the view distance beyond the silly level it's locked to by default.

[Crielaard 435]

Here is myself doing a high angle and low angle gunstrafe as given per Multi-Command Handbook 11-F16

Chapter 5, paragraph 9. Page 147-150

Note my minimum altitude after the guns burst.

I'm pretty sure most CAS is performed with input from the ground forces calling in the CAS. They give references and call out targets, paint targets with laser, smoke targets, etc. If you can't see it, you likely shouldn't be engaging it based on what you can see with your eyes. Guns aren't, as far as I know, for engaging infantry that you have a clear picture of from the air, unless you've got your cameras on those targets to help with targeting.

Theoretically, there would be PiP screens that would give you a good picture of the ground, but that sort of things is pretty hard to do well in the ArmA engine because it would have to get a good deal more complex or a good bit less useful.

And if you're flying, you need to have your view distance pumped up. If you're in MP, don't bother flying if the mission doesn't have a way to increase the view distance beyond the silly level it's locked to by default.

A TGP is by far not carried by all aircraft. And even if they do carry it...there can still be problems with the system that prevents it from using it.

Yes with CAS there is Always someone controlling the aircraft and talking him on to the target. However, there is no direct need to see the target it's self neither any means of marking or such. The controller can give the pilot a 'talk on' to the target. If the target is a group of guys or a soft target like a truck "The truck is in this and that treeline" would be sufficient. The pilots just strafes the treeline in the hopes to hit it. (Or drop a 1000pound bomb would do the trick aswell... ;)

There are also 3 control types which dictate the need of seeing targets and the aircraft it self per see. But that's too much going into detail for now.

Edited March 29, 2014 by 87th_Neptune

[Sneakson 1]

I've tried the showcase a few times and it didn't go very well.

Ended up spamming all my missiles and bombs then having to use the gun to try to target the artillery or whatever that's impossible to spot...

A PIP with zoom on the MFCDs and not having to aim where you shoot would be useful.

Here is myself doing a high angle and low angle gunstrafe as given per Multi-Command Handbook 11-F16

Chapter 5, paragraph 9. Page 147-150

Note my minimum altitude after the guns burst.

A TGP is by far not carried by all aircraft. And even if they do carry it...there can still be problems with the system that prevents it from using it.

Yes with CAS there is Always someone controlling the aircraft and talking him on to the target. However, there is no direct need to see the target it's self neither any means of marking or such. The controller can give the pilot a 'talk on' to the target. If the target is a group of guys or a soft target like a truck "The truck is in this and that treeline" would be sufficient. The pilots just strafes the treeline in the hopes to hit it. (Or drop a 1000pound bomb would do the trick aswell... ;)

There are also 3 control types which dictate the need of seeing targets and the aircraft it self per see. But that's too much going into detail for now.

Private video, can't watch.

[Crielaard 435]

Fixed. It indeed was still private for some reason. Sorry.

Ill make a video flying the showcase. I found it far too easy I must say...

[Sneakson 1]

Fixed. It indeed was still private for some reason. Sorry.

Ill make a video flying the showcase. I found it far too easy I must say...

Watching that video I have no idea what you are shooting at :p Could you see anything? Or did you aim using the radar only, or did you know exactly where the targets were because you placed them there in the editor or something?

Shooting is easy enough if you know where the targets are at.

[Crielaard 435]

I only knew the general area. I did see them. Used no other methods of finding them than my eyes. Maybe due to the compression it's you don't see them that well in the video. Try setting it to 1080p.

It's about finding discrepencies in the ground. In real life it's way harder than in Arma.

P.S.

Here is my video of the Fixedwing showcase

Edited March 29, 2014 by 87th_Neptune

[roshnak 41]

It's about finding discrepencies in the ground. In real life it's way harder than in Arma.

It probably also helps that your object view distance appears to be over 5000m.

On an unrelated note, it's hilarious that the landing speed of the A-164 is like 75 knots.

[Crielaard 435]

Yes my viewdistance is 12000 and object draw distance is 7000-something. IRL and in Arma with a visibility under 8000 I wouldnt even consider trying CAS with a fast jet.

Indeed about the landing speed Haha

[Sneakson 1]

I only knew the general area. I did see them. Used no other methods of finding them than my eyes. Maybe due to the compression it's you don't see them that well in the video. Try setting it to 1080p.

It's about finding discrepencies in the ground. In real life it's way harder than in Arma.

P.S.

Here is my video of the Fixedwing showcase

Oh, the enemy artillery is marked on the map? :p

That should make it a bit easier than trying to spot it by eye...

[Crielaard 435]

Yes with the showcase mission it's marked.

The first video. target is not marked and in a rough random position 400m circle.

Smart ass

[squirrel0311 16]

Yes my viewdistance is 12000 and object draw distance is 7000-something. IRL and in Arma with a visibility under 8000 I wouldnt even consider trying CAS with a fast jet.

Indeed about the landing speed Haha

Yep that’s the biggest difference for me.

My Overall view distance is set at 3300m because of the multiplayer servers I like to play on.

Even still, I haven’t had any trouble engaging targets as far as tactics are concerned.

One thing I do wish for though is for the HUD to be a little easier to see, seems like the HUD in BF3 is much easier to read.

Does anyone know what the difference is between the HUD for jets in BF3 and the HUD in Arma 3? …Besides the layout, I mean.

Do they just use bigger lines or do the put the view closer towards the dash?

(I’m at work so I can’t look, I can only think back.)

[roshnak 41]

The HUD in Arma isn't bright enough to be easily readable in daylight, and BF3 places the player's view unrealistically close to the HUD to accomodate the wider field of view than you get in most flight sims.

Edit: Also, why are you manually setting your view distance for multiplayer when it overrides your view distance settings anyway?

[Crielaard 435]

In decent MP games you will have a slider to set your own viewdistance.

[squirrel0311 16]

Also, why are you manually setting your view distance for multiplayer when it overrides your view distance settings anyway?

The ones I played on originally didn't override view distance. I changed it because when the server was half - full it turned terrible. After turning it down I just never changed it back; I think I'm used to it now,he higher FPS is certainly nice...at least in editor.

Most of the ones I play on now all override it but it's fine because you don't really need it anyway unless someone is sitting in a tank on a far away hilltop.

As for the HUD...I almost wish there was an option to constantly sit closer to the dash like in BF3. I really don't care about the pretty switches in the cockpit. If I want to look at that stuff I'll just look down, I'd much rather look at what's going on outside and what's being displayed. :/

[Crielaard 435]

If I want to look at that stuff I'll just look down, I'd much rather look at what's going on outside and what's being displayed. :/

May I say that is one of the wisest things I ever heared a 'virtual' pilot say.

My RL students play simulators game and are SOOO focused on the instruments I almost literally have to beat them to get them to look at what's going on outside!

[the_demongod 31]

The way I always do it is begin my *ingress (or dive, or whatever you want to call it) at 1 km away from the target, and from 600m altitude. After your run, you pull up and fly back up to 600m. Once you're ~1.5 km from the target, you can make your turn and repeat. Pretty effective, easy to see targets, not too low, etc. You can get some pretty nice cloverleaf formations going with this system.

^ In reply to these two posts, the real way to fix this is to allow us to set different camera angles, all accessible from key binds. You could set them up similar to the way you configure the HUD in gameplay settings. That way, people who have joysticks like me (and therefore a convenient "zoom in" button) can fly with the camera zoomed out as much as we want, but someone who doesn't have that luxury could set the default view to be zoomed in.

It would also allow for a sort of instrument panel quick look key you could hold down that would auto zoom on the instrument panel (those of you who have played DCS will know what I'm talking about). It would allow those of us who aren't fortunate enough to have TrackIR to easily check weapon stores, speed in knots, see whether flaps/gear are down, etc.

Edited June 3, 2014 by the_Demongod

[subs17 9]

lol ingress means to go in egress is when you are flying away.

CAS ok first know what the threats are if they are SAMs/AAA then I keep to a high altitude outside their umbrella. If its just small arms then you can fly much lower. Next thing is spot the tgt and if I'm flying as an FAC I'll pick an object that stands out and give that as a reference point. In some cases I'll mark with smoke or in some sims for the element of surprise use the data link to pass a steerpoint onto the tgt(DCS A-10C or BMS). With the CAS flight knowing the location of the reference point then I use direction north/south/east/west of that object or smoke and distance to the tgt and tgt type. If you want to get formal then you can also give the 9 liner. And another way to mark a tgt is to blow up a tgt in that convoy so I can also mark a convoy by straffing the first and last vehicle(or use mavericks or 2 mark points in the data link which appears on the digital map of the other aircraft).

---------- Post added at 13:03 ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 ----------

One thing I do wish for though is for the HUD to be a little easier to see, seems like the HUD in BF3 is much easier to read.

Does anyone know what the difference is between the HUD for jets in BF3 and the HUD in Arma 3? …Besides the layout, I mean.

Do they just use bigger lines or do the put the view closer towards the dash?

(I’m at work so I can’t look, I can only think back.)

You don't want the devs to look at BF3s HUD that is the wrong direction ideally DCS A-10Cs HUD, F-15C or Falcon 4 BMS or FSX VRS F/A-18E are the most realistic Huds that are the best to model off than another FPS. Realistic huds give a pitch ladder and flight path marker plus waypoint data and weapons modes and sights. The devs should remove pitch, roll and yaw from the HUD and just use the pitch ladder in degrees as those entrys waste space on the HUD for more important information. As well as a HUD how about a JHCMS or helmet mounted sight and this could be as good as a horizontal situation display so then you can see tgts and steerpoints in your helmet. If they modelled an AWACs or JSTARs you could have the location of every tgt vehicle and unit in your view with the helmet.

---------- Post added at 13:05 ---------- Previous post was at 13:03 ----------

In decent MP games you will have a slider to set your own viewdistance.

IMO by default the player should not touch view distance but the sim should automatically go to aircraft sim mode and then give maximum realistic view distance(depending on weather) when in an aircraft.

---------- Post added at 13:18 ---------- Previous post was at 13:05 ----------

A TGP is by far not carried by all aircraft. And even if they do carry it...there can still be problems with the system that prevents it from using it.

Yes with CAS there is Always someone controlling the aircraft and talking him on to the target. However, there is no direct need to see the target it's self neither any means of marking or such. The controller can give the pilot a 'talk on' to the target. If the target is a group of guys or a soft target like a truck "The truck is in this and that treeline" would be sufficient. The pilots just strafes the treeline in the hopes to hit it. (Or drop a 1000pound bomb would do the trick aswell... ;)

There are also 3 control types which dictate the need of seeing targets and the aircraft it self per see. But that's too much going into detail for now.

No the A-10C and F-16 can both use their targeting pods for CAS in fact I would say for safety reasons they are most likely used all the time now days. For the A-10C you can with the targeting pod see the tgt and zoom right in to identify what you are attacking, for FPS purposes some people switch the TGP page to something else for straffing. For night straffing they are very effective. BTW attacking ground tgts is not always CAS you can do Battle Armour Interdiction behind enemy lines which does not allow you the use of a JTAC but they can use an FAC in another aircraft for that job. No you must always identify your target "the truck in the tree line is not enough" and spraying the tree line you might attack the wrong treeline wasting ammo and possibly hitting friendlys. The right way is to give a clear indication of the targets location so reference an object prominent and then distance from there to the tgt and direction.

With a camouflaged tgt you still have to find exactly where it is located so if its in a tree line you would circle if you can and try to make out exactly where it is. If it were a soft armour tgt or APC for example then you would need to concentrate the burst into that small tiny area in order to destroy it. Straffing everything would not be enough so perhaps a distance to tgt on the tree line "100m North on tree line".

---------- Post added at 13:34 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------

Basically just ask yourself, “What happens when I miss?†(Obviously all these weapons can kill the threats mentioned above but the key is to do it quickly and with the least amount of possible danger.)

6. Don’t take unnecessary risk.

As for actually spotting targets, yeah the view is a little stifling but you can still do it. Just stay pretty high up and keep one wing tilted down. (Fly on your side and use your rudder to help orbit.)

Just like in real CAS Missions… The pilot circles and stares at the grid until he gets a positive ID on the target. He notes the land marks and other important information….and calls “Wings Level†to let troops on the ground know he’s starting his attack. (Sometimes they say that.)

have all the fancy computers and junk that do everything for you. A-10 pilots still use maps and plot grids on their kneed boards, I know this is the upgraded version but the map will always be a valuable tool…especially one that tracks your position!

Oh another thing I noticed….you can’t here rounds hitting your aircraft. :/

I was flying along and suddenly noticed my screen turning fuzzy, I switched to third person and saw black smoke pouring from my engines…apparently I’d been shot a number of times yet my HULL indicator was still White.

No they do not say "wings level" unless its to their wingman while flying formation(even then not really, they only generally say when they are turning). The correct term is "IP"(Initial Point) then "In Hot" when commencing the attack.

"guns guns guns!" for guns.

"Rifle" for maverick missile.

"Bombs away" for bombs (in some countrys they may use other terms).

After firing the aircraft egresses "egressing south west" or where ever. From there depending on the threat they may run in again if the JTAC requests it or if tgts destroyed be released to rtb or find another JTAC and check in.

The process of the mission is first you have a briefing and work out the mission with threats and who is carrying what. Take off, form up(check in with AWACs) then external lights off"going dark" fly to the tgt area and check in with the JTAC or FAC if its a CAS mission. (for us sometimes a BAI will have one guy fly as FAC) and then carry out the mission on the tgts. After you are released then you rtb(return to base) and when over friendly territory, call AWACs and check out, lights on and then call ATC to land and depending on battle damage on some aircraft might effect the order in which we land. So if someone is flying on fumes then he might land first in some cases.

It would be good if the devs checked out Falcon 4 Allied Forces briefing and mission planning screens as they are quite awesome particularly regarding editing of packages (more than one flight for a mission).

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:34 ----------

In one mission in DCS A-10C I can destroy over 40 ground targets with one load on a single A-10C and that's the beauty of the effectiveness of the A-10C and its real life weapons load out. These tgts include tanks and 2 shilkas as tgts along with 20 trucks and the rest are APCs. The maverick missile I use on the AAA(shilkas) and tanks and I also use CBU105s which a single bomb can take out a large number of armoured vehicles clustered together. For trucks I just straff them so that's how good a modern CAS aircraft should be capable of doing. It would be good if the arma 3 aircraft were capable of the same with the same type of weapons.

Edited June 2, 2014 by SUBS17