Problems With Mil-Sim Groups Taking Realism Too Far

[Phoenix1.0 10]

Dear Readers

I have been part of Mil-Sim groups so my opinions are not without reason please bear with me I wish to offend no one but these are the facts as I see them.

Being a player of Arma 3 and Arma 2 you will come across groups such as the 7cav, 15th MEU, 23rd Gaming Division, and the 173rd Airborne, Lets not forget everyones favorite the TAW group. Everyone at one time has probably

played on one of these groups servers and possibly been on teamspeak with them. In my honset opinion these are some of the groups which take the game to a level of realism which not only makes you less effective in game but less

fun. Many of these groups wish to play the game as if they were fighting actual people as we all know this is not the case. While there are some PVP servers in Arma I have seen more coop servers as opposed to PvP. When you play

with some of these groups they restrict you play style so that you are constrained to what they want you to be. In the off chance you join the group they will more than likely put you through some B.S. Basic training which assumes

you dont even know how to play the game. I will be honest some tactics regarding communication and formations from actual real life combat can be affective in Arma but at the end of the day you still are fighting against glorified

aimbots which means you cant apply some actual real life tactics. I mean we all know you cant lay motionless in the grass and let an AI walk right by you. They will see you and shoot you where a normal human may not. This is only

one piece of the puzzle though. Some groups have age limits which are not strictly enforced. I believe this can lead to a lot of internal problems. I mean I am a 21 year old man. I dont want to take orders from some 15 year old kid or

be talked down to by one none the less. Many of these groups have superiors which like to hide in their admin caves and talk amoungst themselves, rarely playing the game with the lower ranking people or even with the public. I have

had my fair share of problems with these groups and they all are the same. They have people who are on a power trip and wish to the God of the server. When they have missions they will send you to your death and then laugh

about it later. honestly I think it best to stay away from groups like this because they are nothing more than Drama, and when i say this I mean High School tattle tale. BS drama. Some members of these groups are good people I am

in no way saying they all are bad people. But as with everything, there is always that rotten few who ruin the game for everyone. I was forced to use mod guns for some of these groups when they were completely ineffective. and

with the release of Arma 3 the Realism Kinda becomes skewed. I think Camo Mods are great but these groups need to adapt to what BI has given us. Use the MX guns they are versitile and usefully when you learn how to use them. I

could go on but I have other things to do. Please respond with your thoughts and ideas. If any of the groups mentioned feel upset please contact me Im more than willing to give suggestions and talk.

Sincerly

PhoenixRisen

Prophet

Chuck_Norris9000

Edited March 8, 2014 by Phoenix1.0

[mosh 0]

Paragraphs make it easier to read... that was hard to get through what little I could.

To each their own. If you don't like the way a server is handled you can always just leave. Some people like run n gun, some like tactical, some like to play as Rambo, some like to be drill sergeants... some even like to play life. Find another server and move on.

[terox 316]

The^ As Mosh Stated, move on find one that suits your pallette.

There are servers out there to suit everyones level. Like anything else in life, you have to look to find, it wont come knocking at your door.

[ratszo 17]

We're lucky to have milsim groups whom are willing to pay for and admin public servers.

Most hardcore milsim groups password their servers --and who can blame them?

For me, best thing 'bout milsimming is the training..., theory & practice. And it takes alot of practice to get a formation tuned-up.

The milsim groups who allow any Joe-Blow on to their servers must rely on a random player's willingness, attitude and respect.

Without willingness, attitude and respect --why would anyone want to join a public milsim server?

[tortuosit 486]

Variety is good.

[Harzach 2517]

Sounds like someone has an axe to grind.

I've played on servers hosted by all of the groups mentioned in the OP and none of them required more from a pubber than to follow the server rules, which are invariably a mix of simple role/asset rules and common courtesy toward others.

[Phoenix1.0 10]

I was more talking about the internal workings of the groups not necessarily the servers themselves. The servers are fine I was just stating the difficulty of trying to play as if it was real life and for the need for them to take and adapt real life tactics and apply them the game better.

[Harzach 2517]

I was more talking about the internal workings of the groups not necessarily the servers themselves. The servers are fine I was just stating the difficulty of trying to play as if it was real life and for the need for them to take and adapt real life tactics and apply them the game better.

How is that anyone's business but theirs?

[JohnnyForeigners 10]

Here's a great example of a unit taking it too far:

Excerpts from their "Teamspeak Code of Conduct"

No rude behavior, rude comments or vulgar language will be tolerated. Apologize if a swear word slips out during combat, as accidents do happen. However patterns of abusive behavior and language will not be tolerated.

Spirit of the Rule: Our Personnel conduct themselves in a professional and mature fashion. Such behavior is simply uncalled for, would damage the reputation of the Unit among guests and lower the morale of troops witnessing such outbursts. In addition, some of our members are minors and should not be exposed to behavior of this kind. This influences those young people badly, sets a wrong example and should also be a point of consideration in this case.

Because obviously, we're twelve and need to be patronised. I mean, real military service members never swear, so why should we not try and conform to that standard? God forbid a minor would pick up a swearword! Countless generations have already spun out of control over the use a few off-colour remarks. Thank god the regiment is here to preserve the morals of our younglings!

All Regimental personnel under the rank of First Sergeant are required to use their comms with a Push-To-Talk button. Only senior Non-Commissioned Officers and Commissioned Officers are allowed to utilize the Voice Activation method of communication.

This is so evident! Of course only those conferred importance in our compact and utilitarian ranking system are competent enough to manage such complex questions as managing their sound transmission method. They have the advantage of course: upon promotion to sergeant their co-inhabitants receive a stern letter warning them to keep it down on op-times.

Politics, religion and other potentially volatile topics are not to be discussed in open, public channels (server channels, section channels, so on). These topics, with the permission of the office holder, may only be discussed in specific office channels.

This one's probably superfluous. I mean, how would we squeeze any meaningful conversation in between all the yes, sir, no, sir flying around? There no time for such shenanigans!

Personnel identification on TeamSpeak.

All personnel are required to wear proper “=tags=RNK.†tags at all times during their presence in the TeamSpeak.

They are also required to use at all times the specific TeamSpeak identity that was assigned with Member Access, Rank Privilege and potentially Admin Status. Such an identity is to be exported to a flash drive / mailed to self for storage and to be used on any and all the machines said personnel communicates from. Identities are not to be doubled and “spare†identities will not be given copies of access, unless previous identity copy was destroyed.

All personnel are required to set up their phonetic nicknames with “fully spelled out rank nickname†at all times.

Spirit of the Rule: We have to be able to tell our own from the non-members. Our troops have to have the ability to move freely around the TS channels and utilize their Admin privileges. OPSEC demands that identities are not doubled and tripled for each troop and each of his machines. Lack of a phonetic nickname spams the channels with "EQUALSIGNSEVEN-C-A-V-EQUALSIGN-P-F-C-Newbie has entered the channel".

Ah, OPSEC. The magical word. We wouldn't want any Johnny Foreigners sticking their dirty noses in our earth-shatteringly secret and important missions, now would we?

Even if you are buddy-buddy with CPL. Danny who's your SL, you will use his rank to address him, for example during section practice. Therefore, it's "Corporal, I'd like a short bio break if I may?" or "Corporal Danny, what load-out do you need us to choose again, please?" In turn, your Corporal will also address you by rank, so it will be "OK, PFC James, you got 5 minutes" and "The default assault kit, Private". Here's a list of all the Ranks in the Cavalry, how they are abbreviated in the tags and how they should be properly addressed:

Whenever an Officer or NCO comes into your Teamspeak channel, the first person to notice him should turn the attention to his entrance. He does that by announcing "Attention!" for an officer, or "At ease!" for an NCO. That officer or NCO can reply with "Carry on!", "As you were", "At ease" or "Attention!", depending on the situation and what just got announced.

Here we have arrived at the key part of our milsim experience: feeling important because people call us by our ranks. Ranks, I should add, we have worked hard to earn through many hours of strenuous physical training, well-defined competencies and a general can-do attitude towards functioning in waterhead outfit like our own. I mean, if I can't get any respect down in my real basement, at least I can jack up my self-esteem by lording my imaginary titles over some voices on the internet. Crack on.

Spirit of the Rule: We follow the US Army traditions of military courtesies to respect the rank, effort, devotion and time sacrificed to the unit and as such you must offer this courtesy.

Thanks, US Army. See, having existed for all of a mooncycle, we don't really have any traditions of our own. That's why we're grateful we nicked yours. Nothing screams respect then acting like the army. That we're not a part of.

GOA 	General of the Army 
GEN 	General 
LTG 	Lieutenant General 
MG 	Major General 	
BG 	Brigadier General 

Commissioned Officers 

COL 	Colonel 	
LTC 	Lieutenant Colonel 
MAJ 	Major 
CPT 	Captain 
1LT 	First Lieutenant
2LT 	Second Lieutenant 

Warrant Officers 

CW5 	Chief Warrant Officer
CW4 	Chief Warrant Officer
CW3 	Chief Warrant Officer
CW2 	Chief Warrant Officer
WO1 	Warrant Officer One
WOC Warrant Officer Candidate 	

Non-Commissioned Officers (NCO) 

CSM 	Command Sergeant Major
SGM 	Sergeant Major
1SG 	First Sergeant
MSG 	Master Sergeant
SFC 	Sergeant First Class
SSG 	Staff Sergeant
SGT 	Sergeant
CPL 	Corporal

Enlisted Rank Abbreviation 

SPC 	Specialist 	
PFC 	Private First Class 
PVT 	Private 

Trainees Rank Abbreviation 

TRP 	Trooper 
SLD 	Soldier 
RCT 	Recruit
GRT 	Grunt 

Nice rank roster. A staggering thirty-two layers of command to manage a group with a theoretical size of approximately 406. You can a unit means business when you have to scroll down in a

 box to see them all.

This has nothing to do with good gameplay. This is the deranged construction of a lonely man in his early thirties mulling over the abandonement issues created by his Dad's tour in the Gulf War. Who in their right minds would sign up for this kind of post-modern Standford Prison experiment re-enactment? "Please sign up for our pixellated military simulation group. Don't mind we'll start managing your life." This is nothing better than a class of grade 9ers playing makebelieve army on the playground.

For pudding:

I will not belong to another FPS unit/clan while a member of the regiment.

Edited March 8, 2014 by JohnnyForeigners

[Harzach 2517]

This is nothing better than a class of grade 9ers playing makebelieve army on the playground.

Says the guy playing make-believe army on his computer. And why go to such lengths to complain about something that has no effect on you in any way?

I see more and more complaining on this forum about how others are enjoying the game. People enjoy DayZ, Altis Life, Wasteland, etc. You aren't going to change that, nor do they care what you think of their preference.

[ratszo 17]

Oy! Complaining 'bout mil-sim groups playing a mil-sim game.

A poll no less! Long diatribes even..., bitter vitrol.

Did someone mention 'Drama'?

Me? I think it's great like-minded people can come together in Arma to enjoy their hobby together.

Better here than formations of jack-booted Grognards marching thru 'Second Life' or the 'My little pony' game.

--the horror..., the horror....

[UNN 0]

As a 21 year old man, perhaps you should not complain so much, about what 15 old year kids do on the the servers they pay for? Unless you're just trolling them, in which case that's acceptable adult behaviour.

Edited March 9, 2014 by UNN

[xendance 3]

I do find it rather odd if some groups require you to say "attention" on teamspeak. It's just... wrong to do it when you can't even physically see each other.

Also, those no swearing rules Johnny mentioned are quite awful too. I would have no problem if the rules said "excessive swearing isn't encouraged" or something along those lines, but having to apologize even if you accidentally slip an "oh shit" during play? The game is rated M (17+) anyway, so if they want to be so pedantic they shouldn't be playing with minors anyway.

Makes me say WTF out loud.

[terox 316]

Here's my take on things.

Those who pay for and run a server have the right to do it the way they want.

If they get it right their target audience will stay

if they get it wrong, their target audience will move on.

You then need to ask yourself whether or not you are their target audience?

Having said that, I did 10 years military service in the British Army and now that I am older and work for a living, have a family etc the last thing I want to do in my limited spare time is play A GAME in what I would believe to be an anal environment.

Rank structure outside of the game, eg YES SIR, STAND TO ATTENTION, that's fine for military wanabees. I've done that in RL and wouldn't dream of getting involved with something like that in a social environment.

Ingame that's different. Without it the mission falls to bits. That is after all why the military has a chain of command, like just about any other organisation out there, from the family group to a corporation.

Waiting in an ambush for several hours/days and running through rivers in mid winter IS NOT FUN. Cleaning the weapon every day when your fingers are nearly dropping off from the cold, eating cold rations, wet, cold hungry, physically at the your limit and no sleep for a couple of days IS NOT FUN. Being on death stag (guard between 3am and 5pm) is not fun.

if you want to run a real sim unit, do that and see how many folks stay.

Some would think that's great. I see no issue with them if that's their thing.

I run a community, split between a public and more restricted server. We manage to find a balance that suits us. We even manage to get decent teamplay on the public server.

We run a simple command and control system.. Mission Command >> Group leader >> Anyone else

Apart from the admin, we allow anyone to take these roles and if they cause no major issues, they remain in those roles for the duration of the mission.

The mission commander tells the group leaders what to do

The group leaders tell their grunts

If the grunts don't do as the group leader asks them, the admin steps in and removes them.

Thats as simple as you can get a command and control structure without being anal about it and thats why we use it.

At the end of the day, nobody can forces anybody to do anything. We are all free spirits with the ability to say NO

So rather than complain, because that simply isn't constructive, get off yer butt and do something about it.

Move on, which is exactly where this thread should go

Edited March 9, 2014 by Terox

[JohnnyForeigners 10]

Thats as simple as you can get a command and control structure without being anal about it and thats why we use it.

I'm in a milsim unit too. And in-game, this convention is absolute. But these large units and their intrusive rules and roleplay take it outside of the game, where it should be an insult to any well-thinking adult. You can have a change of command without resorting to 17 pages of extraneous rules, but based on a respect that is created by displaying actual leadership skill limited to the in-game sphere.

Says the guy playing make-believe army on his computer. And why go to such lengths to complain about something that has no effect on you in any way?

Me? I think it's great like-minded people can come together in Arma to enjoy their hobby together.

As a 21 year old man, perhaps you should not complain so much, about what 15 old year kids do on the the servers they pay for? Unless you're just trolling them, in which case that's is acceptable adult behaviour.

At the end of the day, nobody can forces anybody to do anything. We are all free spirits with the ability to say NO

So rather than complain, because that simply isn't constructive, get off yer butt and do something about it.

Move on, which is exactly where this thread should go

How is that anyone's business but theirs?

I've grouped these comments because they seem to revolve around a central theme: It's their community, they can organise themselves as they wish.

Of course this is true. It's the same basic precept that allows milsim groups that I do like to organise: you join up and implictly agree to play by the rules. But these major units attract a lot of new players who are curious about milsim. These players are then submitted to rules and regulations that are at best a solid 30 minutes of reading and at worst an invasion of your decision making process as an individual (Not allowed to be in other FPS clans being a great example that I cited). These units feature heavily on out-of-game roleplaying, an unnecessary social structure of subordination and often a very disingenuous identification with actual military units. This is the kind of environment players new to the milsim experience are subjected to.

Complaining about this isn't going to change that, you are all correct. But the reason I'm speaking out here is because it is a gross misrepresentation of what milsim could be all about and can possibly unnecessarily turn players away. And that makes it anyone's business. The ArmA community at large seems to tactictly approve this style of running a unit, but I feel there's a silent majority who feels there are better ways to have serious milsim that don't involve this sort of irrelevant make-believe roleplay.

Edited March 9, 2014 by JohnnyForeigners

[ratszo 17]

Oh, i see, you're worried 'bout "new players" falling in with the wrong crowd.

The wrong crowd being any mil-sim group you don't approve of.

That's the gist of it, right?

On the subject of role-playing --it is interesting Life servers are so popular in both a2 & a3. Seems there is a significant fan-base for the roleplay gendre.

We're just a mod away from Furries clogging the server lists..., or God knows what's next?

I'd be worried for new players being scarred for life..., oh, the Humanity!

[Harzach 2517]

...I feel there's a silent majority who feels there are better ways to have serious milsim that don't involve this sort of irrelevant make-believe roleplay.

Then they should get off of their collective silent asses and start a milsim group as they see fit. Lead by example.

These are private communities which answer to no one but themselves. Not the greater Arma community, not the self-appointed FPS clan cops, not anyone. Full stop.

Also, your understanding of RP and those who gravitate to it is sorely lacking.

This topic is very silly.

[tortuosit 486]

Caption Obvious is reporting groups with a playstyle he doesn't like. Oh!

[UNN 0]

Look at it another way, if these so called "offending" groups have devised their rules to deter obstructive and uncooperative players. Then congratulations to them, it appears as though they are doing an excellent job.

[scorch_052 127]

Who cares? Just dont join these milsim groups. I get youre trying to help out or warn people, but really who cares? If you dont like specific rules but want to be in milsim, just dont follow those rules and see if they kick you out. If they do, oh well you werent meant for that group. If they dont, great you can play games with them.

You are making a big deal out of a problem that is literally non-existent. People choose how to play games. Noone is forced to join a milsim group and there are MANY better alternatives (UO, Shacktac, RIFM, etc.) that arent as anal about out-of-game behavior. Personally, I'm never going to say "Attention!" or "Sir!" to someone over the internet as thats just downright silly. Noone deserves to be addressed in such a manner just for sitting a computer longer than I do. Other than that, I see nothing really wrong with milsim groups. Maybe the swearing thing comes off as a little ridiculous, but try to look at things from a perspective besides your own. Perhaps there are people who just generally dont enjoy hearing swearing and feel it creates a hostile/offensive atmosphere for them. I mean BI forums chastises excessive swearing and I'd say that that rule sort of decreases the hostility of the environment.

tl;dr Dont do milsim, or do do milsim. Either way, noone should care but you.

[Gunter Severloh 4063]

When I lead a realism unit for Red orchestra back in 2008-2010, we were a German realism unit, portraying the 3rd Pz Grenadiers.

The only concerns for my unit was the following in terms of rules or guidelines as i called them:

1. be yourself

2. be active as you can

3. communicate

4. try to make the practices (as we were always going to or having 1 life realism matches within our own unit, and against other units)

5. use the proper channel on vent for what your doing, so if in practice go on practice channel, if in general game go on pub channel, if in meeting go on meeting channel ect,.

6. conduct yourself properly when pubbing which means while being part of our unit and having the unit's tag in your name be a decent rep for who your are in our unit, it dont

mean you cant have fun, just dont start crap with folks and be a child and talk crap like our unit is better then yours and that sort of bs.

7. every member had a rank, rank was mainly used in training and operations in matches and campaigns we were part of

8. rank for us was based on training and experience in the game, as well as how long you been in the unit

9. awards and medals were given based on performance in matches and campaigns

Theres more but the unit was laid back, we had our own sort of strictness in part but that was specific to certain areas not an overall thing, the main thing to me

was be yourself have fun and if you have questions, concerns, thoughts, and or even ideas I wanted to hear/read them, and believe me I had applied ideas before

from the members which only made the unit more fun and interesting but still kept the unit as a unit, we weren't the best amongst realism units in battles but we did hold our own.

unit was disbanded because I and my close friend whom him and I had started the clan then formed into realism unit in 2007 we had played RO like a job, and we got bored with it,

and tired of some bs we got sick of as well and that was mainly due to activity as we had quite a few guys from college, so they'd be off for summer, so the situations were understandable.

For Arma3 if i had a unit, same concepts would apply, but we would use certain mods and things to adjust the behavior of the AI to not be aimbots,

i personally enjoy tactical realism coop, and know how to apply the tactics, but in once sense if folks aren't serious enough to apply tactics, and play realistically to where it works then forget it.

The main thing is to have fun, why we play the game in the first place.

Server wise I would and currently have a private server for the unit, so focus can be on the mission and not any outside distractions like general pubbers doing stupid shit,

or spamming the chat, overall coop in a military fashion that has every member playing with what they do best, their skills, id prefer every member in my unit if I were to

have one to be playing as their role they prefer as making a sniper into an mgman is not realistic in terms of utilizing one's skills proficiently in whatever mission situation the skills are needed in.

In general I think whatever floats your boat, if you like it real strict then theres groups for that, if you like it how i described then i would guess

theres groups out there like that, if you dont care then its on you, lol

Anyways hope I didn't get to far offtopic or out of sync here.

[John Kozak 14]

Skip it, guys, this fat green one is just trolling. Note how he's resuming discussion under different nickname - his virtual - to create an illusion that someone actually shares those "views".

Don't feed 'im. It's all just flamebaiting.

P.S. I'd suggest the admins to make an IP scrub.

Edited March 9, 2014 by DarkWanderer

[Gunter Severloh 4063]

Who you referring too?

usually a reply after another is referring to the previous post, so idk what your assuming, im just posting my views on the subject,

maybe your the one trolling as i dont see anything you are adding to the conversation.

[John Kozak 14]

Who you referring too?

Phoenix1.0 (OP) and JohnyForeigners - two virtuals of the same person. Note both accounts have just a couple of posts, and the first post of the latter is just continuing speech of the former, as if they are the same person (not just someone like-minded, which is what he tries to fake)

[John Kozak 14]

usually a reply after another is referring to the previous post, so idk what your assuming, im just posting my views on the subject,

maybe your the one trolling as i dont see anything you are adding to the conversation.

No need to get jumpy on me, I'm not saying anything about you. See above.

ADDED: sorry for it, didn't think of this way to look at my post. I refer to what's highlighted in my above post exclusively.

Edited March 9, 2014 by DarkWanderer