new tank optiks .....

[kuIoodporny 45]

The FCS is out of scope at least for now. Road is open for 3rd party mods though, example:

.............. no questions more ^^ realy the optics are good ? then i have other gunnersight in the game ..... i have elevation and a single gross not more - thats good sure ?????????????????????????????????????

I think you should press Numpad + key ;)

[Tonci87 163]

The FCS is out of scope at least for now. Road is open for 3rd party mods though, example:

I think you should press Numpad + key ;)

Ah well, BIS always afraid to go the few extra steps towards realism. Guess I can only hope that ACE does what it did for Arma 2. The next rolling thunder event will be this sunday and those things wouldn´t be as enjoyable as they are without the splendid ACE2 Tank FCS. Anyway, keep up the good work

[Damian90 697]

At least in Kongsberg Protector there is continuous LRF, the beam itself is pulsed and it fires maybe twice a second or so.

I doubt it works that way, and believe me, I know what I am talking about. Constant use of LRF would end up with frying it or it would be disabled by safety system for a long time period to prevent frying it up.

I don't know how the FCS would be able to calculate the correct lead without constant range-data, of course none of this matters until (if) we get FCS.

There is no constant range data. You want to know how exactly tank FCS works? Purchase Steel Beasts Pro PE, and try some training scenarios where proffesional explain how to use FCS and how it works.

Oh and one thing I'd like to see in Arma is the fact that the laser of the LRF can be seen with NVs, in one exercise our squad was discovered by the enemy when someone forgot the cLRF on during the night, imagine a pulsating laser in the woods, how embarrassing

It is unrealistic. LRF is not visible, it is not laser pointer like the ones used in rifles.

Ah well, BIS always afraid to go the few extra steps towards realism. Guess I can only hope that ACE does what it did for Arma 2. The next rolling thunder event will be this sunday and those things wouldn´t be as enjoyable as they are without the splendid ACE2 Tank FCS. Anyway, keep up the good work

Well, it would be nice if at some point, BIS would want to add FCS, especially that modern FCS should be relatively easy to model even in ArmA engine.

Modern tanks, usually use double axis sight stabilization, which means that even if dynamic lead is calculated by FCS, it is not represented on sights display. A bit different story is if sights are only single axis stabilized, then to provide gunner with proper data, sights reticle needs to "float".

It is hard to explain without showing this, so again, look at Steel Beasts Pro PE to learn more.

[lugiahua 26]

We had realistic FCS addons since Arma1. You could even set air burst mode to certain rounds for anti helo or anti infantry.

[raspu86 92]

The FCS is out of scope at least for now.

Don't we have a kind-of FCS in the game already? You can lock on enemy vehicles by pressing T the range will then change to AUTO and it even has dynamic lead. The only problem with it is that you can't use your crosshair as a point of aim but a point slightly lower to the left. It also uses the "target locked" symbology which is unfortunate. If we could have (I am BEGGING you) in Arma you would be my most favorite BI developer ever! ;)

Quick and dirty demonstration of the FCS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItRR_B4bxko&feature=youtu.be

Edited March 6, 2014 by Raspu86
Grammar

[kuIoodporny 45]

Guess I can only hope that ACE does what it did for Arma 2.

No need to hope.

ACE does.

;)

[Smurf 12]

No need to hope.

ACE does.

;)

Playing ball on all fields and teasing us all with that?

You're a mean person.

[CaptainObvious 95]

This is slipping a bit towards off-topic.

I doubt it works that way, and believe me, I know what I am talking about. Constant use of LRF would end up with frying it or it would be disabled by safety system for a long time period to prevent frying it up.

Feel free to doubt, questioning things is usually a good thing.

I've operated the Protector quite a bit in real life, and you? There is a continuous mode which is to be used on targets that are moving towards or away from you, surprisingly that info is crucial if you intend to hit the target.

What exactly you suggest would be frying after a prolonged use?

There is no constant range data. You want to know how exactly tank FCS works? Purchase Steel Beasts Pro PE, and try some training scenarios where proffesional explain how to use FCS and how it works.

Rangefinder that doesn't give the gunner a continuous info on target's range when needed is pretty much useless, especially against targets moving, as already said, towards or away from the gun.

I've used the Protector enough to not need to rely on a simulator regarding this particular subject.

It is unrealistic. LRF is not visible, it is not laser pointer like the ones used in rifles.

Depends on the wavelength and the NV used to observe, most if not all LRFs use IR laser, with wavelengths from 700nm to 1500nm, most NVs easily detect IR with 700nm up to 1000nm, better ones of course see a wider range.

Once again, I was there when our squad was detected, the laser IS very much visible.

[Damian90 697]

Feel free to doubt, questioning things is usually a good thing.

I've operated the Protector quite a bit in real life, and you? There is a continuous mode which is to be used on targets that are moving towards or away from you, surprisingly that info is crucial if you intend to hit the target.

What exactly you suggest would be frying after a prolonged use?

Then Protector works on completely different principle than MBT FCS.

What will be frayed? Laser range finder itself. For example in early variants of M1 tank, you can "fire" only about 4 times in short intervals without damaging laser range finder, then you need to wait around 80 seconds so LRF can cool down. Otherwise it will be permamentely damaged. I don't know how situtation looks with new LRF used in newer FCS mounted in for example M1A2SEP. I think it is more similiar to Leopard 2 there, when after too many "lazer shots" LRF is automatically disabled by the system to prevent damage.

Rangefinder that doesn't give the gunner a continuous info on target's range when needed is pretty much useless, especially against targets moving, as already said, towards or away from the gun.

I've used the Protector enough to not need to rely on a simulator regarding this particular subject.

But in tanks FCS, dynamic lead is not calculated by using LRF. Tanks FCS calculate lead based on the movement of own tanks turret. Eh how to explain this? Ok if you see a moving target as a tank gunner, you track it by approx 5 seconds, then you "laze" it with laser range finder, FCS calculates range and moves gun up or down to compensate round drop, and computer automatically inducts dynamic lead. The lead is calculated on the rotation speed of the turret, this speed depends on how fast is target and how fast gunner needs to track it by using his turret control handles.

You can watch here how Steel Beasts Pro PE simulates it in M1A2SEP. Gunner use laser range finder only once, and if he do everything properly, there is no way to miss. It is definetely much different and much more precise than small RWS like Protector, especially at longer ranges where tank gun is a very precise weapon, heavy machine gun or granade machine gun will be less precise and more a kind of area weapon.

Depends on the wavelength and the NV used to observe, most if not all LRFs use IR laser, with wavelengths from 700nm to 1500nm, most NVs easily detect IR with 700nm up to 1000nm, better ones of course see a wider range.

Once again, I was there when our squad was detected, the laser IS very much visible.

Tank laser range finders are rather different. They need to operate at very long ranges, and be able to reliably meassure ranges in fog, dust, smoke, and even dirt or mud that can partially obscure vehicle primary sight where LRF is placed.

[kuIoodporny 45]

Realistically I'd strongly prefer rangefinders that don't work continously. No risk of abusing LRF when it's not needed then - more and more modern combat vehicles get laser detection devices, able to locate at least direction where I'm lasing them from, and make me feel uncomfortable in any way - f.e. pointing muzzle at my vehicle.

Flight times of munitions are short nowadays, and trajectories rather flat. If I see the target moves in my direction or away, I can always compensate for it manually.

[Tonci87 163]

No need to hope.

ACE does.

;)

http://www.myinstants.com/instant/hallelujah/

Another quick question regarding tanks. I´ve noticed that AI gunners have two problems

1: They fire before they have the target in their sights

It is very easy to reproduce. Place a tank and the make an enemy vehicle appear a km away from it. The Tank will turn the gun and fire before he finishes tuning. The first shot will always miss.

2: Ai gunners turn the turret extremely slow on the last few degrees.

This is also very easy to reproduce.

Place an enemy rifleman and play as the tank commander. You will notice that the gunner is extremely slow on the last few degrees while turning the turret towards the target. Because of problem #1 he will already begin to fire and waste at least 50 rounds before he starts hitting the enemy.

I made a ticket for that. Maybe you could be so kind to bring it to the attention of whoever is responsible for stuff like that.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=17693

@CaptianObvious

Continuous range finders would need a really potent cooling system and they do have a big disadvantage if the enemy has Laser warning systems.

I´m just speculating, but maybe you experienced a system like it is used in the Black shark helicopter (I played DCS Blackshark, thats where I know that system from). The system used there is a combination of a Laser range finding system and and a camera. First you mark a Target by placing it inside of a target cursor. The system will remember the shape of the target (basically the image inside of the cursor) and track it. If you then lase the target you provide the computer with range information. The computer will then be able to estimate the distance to the target based on the cameras movements without using the laser anymore. A pretty clever system.

[king homer 1]

You can watch here how Steel Beasts Pro PE simulates it in M1A2SEP. Gunner use laser range finder only once, and if he do everything properly, there is no way to miss. It is definetely much different and much more precise than small RWS like Protector, especially at longer ranges where tank gun is a very precise weapon, heavy machine gun or granade machine gun will be less precise and more a kind of area weapon.

Explain to me "Gunner use LRF only once". For every target the gunner has to re-lase the distance. Indicated by the blinking square above the range display. :)

The SB video is neat, this is how tank battles in Arma3 should be.

[CaptainObvious 95]

@CaptianObvious

Continuous range finders would need a really potent cooling system and they do have a big disadvantage if the enemy has Laser warning systems.

I´m just speculating, but maybe you experienced a system like it is used in the Black shark helicopter (I played DCS Blackshark, thats where I know that system from). The system used there is a combination of a Laser range finding system and and a camera. First you mark a Target by placing it inside of a target cursor. The system will remember the shape of the target (basically the image inside of the cursor) and track it. If you then lase the target you provide the computer with range information. The computer will then be able to estimate the distance to the target based on the cameras movements without using the laser anymore. A pretty clever system.

Thermal cameras already have cryogenic cooling systems, I can't see a reason why similar systems couldn't be used in LRFs if they'd require cooling, if anyone can find a credible source why cLRFs can't be used in tanks, please share, I'd be very interested.

I understand and agree that there lies a possible problem when lasing targets, exposing yourself to the enemy equipped with a Laser warning system/NV operating at the same wavelength as your LRF, the way I see it however is that it's the gunners job to make sure you're not blazing lazors all over the place when not needed.

The Protector doesn't have target recognition systems, it relies only on (constant when needed) range data along with horizontal and vertical movements of the reticle and adjusts the gun's lead as appropriate at any given time.

[Damian90 697]

Explain to me "Gunner use LRF only once". For every target the gunner has to re-lase the distance.

Yes, this is what I meant, that for every target gunners need to laze only once, of course if he doing this properly and does not miss the target.

Indicated by the blinking square above the range display.

This square is not for LRF readiness. Square indicates gunner if main gun is ready to fire or not, if square is visible, gun is ready, if not, then gun is not ready.

Thermal cameras already have cryogenic cooling systems, I can't see a reason why similar systems couldn't be used in LRFs if they'd require cooling, if anyone can find a credible source why cLRFs can't be used in tanks, please share, I'd be very interested.

There might be a very simple explanation, there is not enough space inside. ;)

Or cooling is not enough for tank LRF due to it's power, nececary to keep laser capable to meassure distance through dust, mud, fog, smoke etc.

[Tonci87 163]

I just really wouldn´t want to use a continuous laser system in a battle scenario. LWRs have become very common in modern gear. Look at the T-90 with it´s Shtora system. If you lase that thing a few things happen: An alarm goes off, the turrets immediately turns into the direction where the laser came from smoke is fired. What is that protector thingy you speak off?

[Damian90 697]

Protector is RWS, known in USA as M151 CROWS or Common Remotely Operated Weapon Station.

[king homer 1]

This square is not for LRF readiness. Square indicates gunner if main gun is ready to fire or not, if square is visible, gun is ready, if not, then gun is not ready.

Yeah my mistake, indeed it shows the readiness of the main gun. Nevertheless the blinking square indicates for a split second the gun is not ready because the gunner just lased something. ;)

[Tonci87 163]

Protector is RWS, known in USA as M151 CROWS or Common Remotely Operated Weapon Station.

Oh, that thing. Now I really doubt that there is a continuous laser on that thing. I think it is too small for a cooling unit that would be capable of cooling a continuously firing laser. Maybe it does indeed track the target with the help of FLIR, or a optical system and then calculates the distance by meassuring the gun movement. Or maybe the laser isn´t as powerfull as in a tank for example.

[Damian90 697]

Yeah my mistake, indeed it shows the readiness of the main gun. Nevertheless the blinking square indicates for a split second the gun is not ready because the gunner just lased something.

This is actually very interesting subsystem of tanks FCS. FCS computer my disconnect gunners trigger if for example gun is not alighned with sights. This is because in modern tanks sights are independent from gun. It is described as gun being slaved to sights not the opposite like in older designs where sights were slaved to the gun. In such situation if for example during fast ride through rough terrain, stabilization can't handle the movement, FCS will disconnect triggers however if gunner pushed them and hold them, FCS will wait even for a small moment when gun and sights will be alighned and then it will release signal from gunner or commanders trigger.

However I suppose it is too much even to be simulated by ACE mod. ;)

Oh, that thing. Now I really doubt that there is a continuous laser on that thing. I think it is too small for a cooling unit that would be capable of cooling a continuously firing laser. Maybe it does indeed track the target with the help of FLIR, or a optical system and then calculates the distance by meassuring the gun movement. Or maybe the laser isn´t as powerfull as in a tank for example.

Well, for example M1A2SEP commander CITV have a very neat capability to meassure distance to target without using laser range finder. You have there option to use a special stadia reticle. You place target in that reticle, and then by using controls, you align reticle with targets sillhouete, computer automatically calculates distance. It takes a bit more time than LRF but gives capability to covertly meassure distance to targets. Especially that M1A2SEP with it's new optical systems and new FCS can perform a very long range observation and gunnery, observation and targets identification can be performed up to 8 or 10 km's, and gunnery with use of conventional non guided ammunition can be performed up to 5 km's.

And yeah, I also assume that CROWS laser range finder is not as powerfull as tanks FCS LRF. These are completely different systems, CROWS due to it's weapons can provide area fire up to perhaps 2 km's? Tank guns can provide precise fire up to 5 km's or even beyond if you know what you'r doing.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Oh, that thing. Now I really doubt that there is a continuous laser on that thing. I think it is too small for a cooling unit that would be capable of cooling a continuously firing laser.

http://i.imgur.com/k1MEKL1.jpg

Maybe it does indeed track the target with the help of FLIR, or a optical system and then calculates the distance by meassuring the gun movement.

No, only thing it calculates from gun movement is lead.

Or maybe the laser isn´t as powerfull as in a tank for example.

That may very well be, I'm not arguing but merely wondering why such a system couldn't be used with the big guns.

CROWS due to it's weapons can provide area fire up to perhaps 2 km's?

Area fire? Even the Browning M2 can hit man sized targets almost 2000 meters out, Protectors can operate up to 50mm cannons.

Edited March 10, 2014 by CaptainObvious

[Damian90 697]

Area fire? Even the Browning M2 can hit man sized targets almost 2000 meters out, Protectors can operate up to 50mm cannons.

You are overentusiastic. I understand that but believe me, I was never failed by my scpeticism when soldiers or former soldiers were telling stories. ;)

And no, CROWS can't operate 50mm cannons. Kongsberg have different type of full size unmanned turrets for vehicles that can handle such weapons however. Just recently new Stryker variant was tested at Fort benning with such turret armed with 30mm automatic cannon. I suspect that this turret might eventually replace manned turret on M2 Bradley IFV. Because GCV IFV was cancelled, M2 needs to be modernized. With unmanned turret, besides 3 men crew, you could fit there 9 dismounts (currently there are 6) just like in Stryker. Currently M2's are undergoing ECP1 and ECP2 upgrades with new power supply and new engine will be choosen soon, due to all armor upgrades M2 exceeded weight of 30 metric tons, and current engine is just too weak to handle it's weight. New suspension is also installed.

Well upcoming years in US Army will be interesting. :)

[CaptainObvious 95]

You are overentusiastic. I understand that but believe me, I was never failed by my scpeticism when soldiers or former soldiers were telling stories. ;)

Right.

And no, CROWS can't operate 50mm cannons. Kongsberg have different type of full size unmanned turrets for vehicles that can handle such weapons however.

CROWS can't, Protector MCT can, it shares the same LRF, FLIR, daytime cameras and FCS as the 151 I operated.

[Damian90 697]

CROWS can't, Protector MCT can, it shares the same LRF, FLIR, daytime cameras and FCS as the 151 I operated.

Yeah, the MCT is Kongsberg unmanned turret that was recently tested on new Stryker variant.

[stormin norman 10]

Isn't that because the gun is not directly below the sights but a little on the left? So it shoots parallel to optics, therefore always slightly left of center.

There could be a lateral zeroing so that the line of fire would meet the reticle at the zeroed distance. But I guess that would be difficult to implement.

It's really apparent when engaging infantry. How hard could it be to add zeroing?

[king homer 1]

This is something present since OFP. The gun zeroing was fixed with ACE2 mod, so it shouldn't be to hard to implent.