Ukraine General

[vilas 476]

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Poroszenko-na-Ukrainie-nie-bedzie-prywatnych-armii,wid,17382307,wiadomosc.html

as many times, again - Ukraine is like african corrupted banana country - one oligarch has ... private army, and when government changed something in law touching his business, he sent his private army to Kiev to block 2 companies,

such things that happens in third world south american countries , in Africa - also happen in Europe - but in Ukraine ,

businesmen who has private army - such things were not present since ages (magnats, tycoons, dukes, nobles had such things in XVII century) , such things show how Ukraine is destroyed by 2 decades of corruption that even made private-owned law enforcement

btw my old question remains unanswered - i asked few times ago - in Ukraine there are oligarchs, extremely rich businessmen that could equip army if they want - what do they do during this war ? Ukrainian army has problems, they have huge money (stolen during Yanuk or Timoshenko rule and earlier)

[Maio 293]

btw my old question remains unanswered - i asked few times ago - in Ukraine there are oligarchs, extremely rich businessmen that could equip army if they want - what do they do during this war ? Ukrainian army has problems, they have huge money (stolen during Yanuk or Timoshenko rule and earlier)

Aren't some of the volunteer battalions funded by these oli's ?

Edited March 24, 2015 by Maio

[aleksadragutin 9]

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Poroszenko-na-Ukrainie-nie-bedzie-prywatnych-armii,wid,17382307,wiadomosc.html

as many times, again - Ukraine is like african corrupted banana country - one oligarch has ... private army, and when government changed something in law touching his business, he sent his private army to Kiev to block 2 companies,

such things that happens in third world south american countries , in Africa - also happen in Europe - but in Ukraine ,

businesmen who has private army - such things were not present since ages (magnats, tycoons, dukes, nobles had such things in XVII century) , such things show how Ukraine is destroyed by 2 decades of corruption that even made private-owned law enforcement

btw my old question remains unanswered - i asked few times ago - in Ukraine there are oligarchs, extremely rich businessmen that could equip army if they want - what do they do during this war ? Ukrainian army has problems, they have huge money (stolen during Yanuk or Timoshenko rule and earlier)

They like the profit more than Ukraine. Simple reason why they won't help.

[Tonci87 163]

They like the profit more than Ukraine. Simple reason why they won't help.

Yes, they didn´t become Oligarchs because they like to spend money...

[mistyronin 1181]

btw my old question remains unanswered - i asked few times ago - in Ukraine there are oligarchs, extremely rich businessmen that could equip army if they want - what do they do during this war ? Ukrainian army has problems, they have huge money (stolen during Yanuk or Timoshenko rule and earlier)

They do what oligarchs tend to do in that situation, sit and wait until there's a clear winner and then side with him.

[oxmox 73]

Dispute Between Poroshenko and Billionaire Governor Threaten Ukraine Alliance

A dispute between President Petro O. Poroshenko of Ukraine and the billionaire governor of one of the country’s regions over control of two state-owned energy companies widened Monday, confronting the new Ukrainian government with its most serious internal crisis since coming to power last year.

Until the dispute burst into the open last week, the governor, Igor V. Kolomoisky, had been among the Kiev government’s staunchest allies. Militias financed privately by him have played a crucial role in stopping pro-Russian separatists waging war in the east from advancing into the heart of Ukraine.

That alliance, however, appeared to be in jeopardy as Mr. Poroshenko and Mr. Kolomoisky clashed in recent days over the future of the two companies, UkrTransNafta and Ukrnafta, and as the president announced that he would take steps to incorporate militias like those controlled by Mr. Kolomoisky into Ukraine’s regular military.

As the animosity rose on Monday, Mr. Poroshenko ordered the Ukrainian state security service to arrest armed men, believed to be loyal to Mr. Kolomoisky, who have occupied the offices of UkrTransNafta and its parent company, Ukrnafta, in Kiev, the capital, since late last week.

At the heart of the dispute is a law passed by the Ukrainian Parliament last week that reduced Mr. Kolomoisky’s power as a minority shareholder in the companies and permitted a management change that he had previously blocked.

More alarmingly, however, the dispute has emphasized the potential threat that private militias pose to the fragile new government.

Mr. Kolomoisky was one of several oligarchs, considered too rich to bribe, who were appointed to leadership positions in a bid to stabilize Ukraine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/24/world/europe/dispute-between-poroshenko-and-billionaire-governor-threaten-ukraine-alliance.html

‘24 hours to disarm’: Kiev on verge of violence as oil dispute between govt, oligarch escalates

The Ukrainian government has given the private army of billionaire Dnepropetrovsk governor Igor Kolomoysky a day to lay down their weapons, after they occupied and erected a fence around the headquarters of the national oil company.

“There will be no more pocket armies for each governor. Any regional armed forces must fall in with the national military hierarchy,†the president warned.

Accusing the government of being “Russian saboteurs†and “corporate raiders†in an expletive-filled rant to the media, he reportedly threatened to “bring 2,000 volunteer fighters to Kiev,†before being persuaded to stand down.

“A single criminal gang has been carrying out kidnappings, murders and violence against officials in Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk. That gang has been in contact, and even received financing from Dnepropetrovsk officials,†he said during a press conference in Kiev.

http://rt.com/news/243313-ukrnafta-kolomoysky-poroshenko-barricade/

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/fight-between-kolomoisky-and-state-turns-ugly-384323.html

--> Amongst other volunteer battalions the Azov Battalion, the Dniepr Battalion and Aidar Battalion are funded in party by the Oligarch Ihor Kolomoyskyhi. (wikipedia)

Oligarch-Funded Battalions Pose Severe Threat to Ukraine's Future

Ukraine's private battalions funded by oligarchs pose a severe threat to the country's integrity, warns analysts, adding that the conflict between the Ukrainian President and notorious tycoon Kolomoisky could lure the state into chaos.

It is worth mentioning that after the February 2014 coup the oligarch formed and funded Ukraine's paramilitary forces aimed at suppressing eastern independence fighters. According to some estimates, Kolomoisky's Dnepro Battalion is comprised of 2,000 battle-ready fighters and another 20,000 in reserve.

Amanda Taub, journalist and former human rights lawyer, stresses that militia forces, raised by the oligarch, pose a substantial threat to the country's fragile government. Other oligarchs may also use private paramilitary forces in order to protect their interests from Kiev's interference, they pointed out. There are about 30 private "volunteer" militia battalions currently involved in the armed standoff in eastern Ukraine.

As militias grow stronger, experts suggest that Ukraine may soon face a "warlordism" phenomenon: private armies and their wealthy patrons could split the country into numerous fiefdoms, ultimately undermining Ukraine's integrity and political stability.

http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150324/1019949636.html

[aleksadragutin 9]

All this story now needs is a twist in the form of another faction fighting in the war.

[oxmox 73]

All this story now needs is a twist in the form of another faction fighting in the war.

Kievpost writes:

"But Kolomoisky has already made it clear that he will put up a fight to keep a grip on both his assets and the region. A group of deputies who support the governor have called for a public rally in Dnipropetrovsk at 6 p.m. on Wednesday -- a call that sounds eerily similar to earlier ones that sparked separatist movements in other parts of Ukraine."

It looks like there is a risk for it......

[aleksadragutin 9]

Kievpost writes:

"But Kolomoisky has already made it clear that he will put up a fight to keep a grip on both his assets and the region. A group of deputies who support the governor have called for a public rally in Dnipropetrovsk at 6 p.m. on Wednesday -- a call that sounds eerily similar to earlier ones that sparked separatist movements in other parts of Ukraine."

It looks like there is a risk for it......

In that case, Kiev wouldn't stand a chance. It's as good as gone.

[Dwarden 1125]

the question is who offers bigger bribe to the Oligarch ...

[aleksadragutin 9]

the question is who offers bigger bribe to the Oligarch ...

It's not about the bribe. Obviously the guy want's to keep the power that he has, and Poroshenko want's it for himself. So maybe another protest, or a full armed operation.

[vilas 476]

i told few times ago on this topic - Ukraine shows how destruction and lack of control of big corporations may destroy whole country,

in fact whole country might be destroyed cause few greed extremely rich f** want more golden necklaces ,

corruption and bribes before WW2 (at least in Poland) were punished by death

corruption, big corporations, banksters - are the worst human/nation/the people enemy

Ukraine in their state history show how corruption can destroy city, this what Oxmox quoted was written by Polish press 2 days earlier

weakness of my country is because big businessmen also stolen a lot from property of "the people", few international corporation also create big problems and unemployment here, banking system in foreign hands etc.

thats why Putin is so loved by Russians, cause during Yeltsin time - such perspective was in Russia like nowadays in Ukraine

i do not know why all our "western" world goes to decreasing punishments,

corruption and putting interest of few rich guys can destroy entire country independence nowadays , Oligarchy system presented in Ukraine is nothing more , but system which Europe had in time of small duke-kingdoms, count-kingdoms in medieval,

such system where magnats rule also destroyed my country in XVIII century, where magnats/nobles/tycoons/dukes/counts were as important as king, they were puting local interest over state,

as result Poland had no army cause magnats/tycoons etc. in XVIII said they will not pay taxes to king,

than Germany, Russia, Austria invaded us,

everything evil done was by nobles ,

now their counterparts are top rich businesmen

history shows that stong countries were countries which had dictatorship and king was ordering all of people including the most rich ones,

probably thats why Putin is such dictator, he knows that if he would allow - several businesmen would steal everything what Russia has ,

the biggest enemy of Ukraine is not Russia, Ukraine has much worse enemy inside - their business leaders called oligarchs, who feel like duke in XII century and who in most cases are mafia with legalized money, they are either ex mafia (gangsters) or ex intel officers of USSR, the same happened on smaller scale in Poland - our top rich businessmen are nothing other than simply ex commie intel officers who in 1989 changed suit from secret political police to business and who "had concession and allowance do do business"

the most rich guy in PL (who pay taxes abroad) said in interview "how i started business ? my father gave me milion dollars"

it was time, when having dollars was forbidden in my country (there was state control on western money) and it was time when people salary was equal 20 (yes TWENTY) dollars per month

so in time when you could be arrested by Militia for keeping US dollars, in time where people were earning 20 USD here,

this businsmen get over milion dollars from his father and started company, he is most rich person in my country, but he lives now in Switzerland, many things were "privatized" to people like him in 1988-1990s,

Ukraine is just parabola of my country,

Ukraine is what left after commies and USSR intel in many countries , because of commies and their secret agents which destroy whole countries to have their private jet, private helicopter etc.

Edited March 25, 2015 by vilas

[aleksadragutin 9]

That's the liberal capitalism and neo-colonialism at work.

Here's the picture of the sentiment in Serbia yesterday.

[ProfTournesol 956]

That's the liberal capitalism and neo-colonialism at work.

Here's the picture of the sentiment in Serbia yesterday.

Neo colonialism comes from Russia, even if you don't want to see it.

[vilas 476]

That's the liberal capitalism and neo-colonialism at work.

Here's the picture of the sentiment in Serbia yesterday.

it isn't

in liberalism and capitalism there is free market, it is neo-feudalism connected with fu*erism ,

in free market if i am better - i win

if i do cheaper - i win

if i am more skilled - i win

if you do not work - you die

in system which is presented currently it is different

i am more skilled - so what, you get job because of nepotism and i die from hunger and you work cause your uncle hired you,

you do not give profit and you are not cheaper - so what, tax payer will pay for it or we will send police to force tax

you have example with some social problems :

you work hard, to buy home you must take 30 years loan, a credit in bank,

there are people who get this home free from state, they didn't pay for it, moreover, they do not want to work

so you pay for them,

if you will not pay taxes - you will be sentenced and go to prison

if they will not pay tax - so what

in free market profit is important

there is company

company produces goods, gives 100 jobs, gives 1900000 PLN taxes ,

those 100 workers pay another 120000 PLN taxes

area under company is worthy 80 0000 PLN

there comes politician , he takes this company and sells it for 1 dollar

competitive company buy it for 1 dollar

destroy it

now they can sell their product

100 people are unemployed, so taxpayers will pay for their benefits

company X who bough it for 1 USD now can sell to this given local market

this is not free market if company is sold for 1% of its price of ground which it stands

if you have 1 sqare metter of land in city worthy lets say 25 PLN/m2 for developer to build houses

than if developers would like to buy it for 25 PLN/m2 to build homes on this area

and politician sells it for 1 PLN to other company

than it is NOT free market, so it is not liberalism, it is closer to feudalism where there were "lords" (above any laws) and "servants" (owned by lords to work)

Edited March 25, 2015 by vilas

[aleksadragutin 9]

Neo colonialism comes from Russia, even if you don't want to see it.

Do you really not see how liberal capitalism is connected to neo-colonialism. It doesn't come from Russia, not even remotely, that's just propaganda stuff. When you have liberal capitalism you have huge companies, where you have companies with a lot of money, you have bribes or lobbying, so you have corruption and oligarchy (in the USA too). When you have such a huge company outside the borders of it's "birth" country, you see them shaping the laws to make a suitable environment for them to work in (and exploit). That is neo-colonialism. You have powerless government faced with expanding companies (and some times army serving them, for example US occupied Iraq for the sake of oil companies). That's how it all works.

In the end they exploit your resources, while destroying your own companies, and selling you their goods (that's the colonialism part).

Serbia is an excellent example. Here, the laws are changing under EU pressure to ensure the domination of their companies on our market. Same goes with workers, you have laws making it easy to fire workers and next to no social policies, while the power of the companies hiring workers is increasing. This makes certain company owners have powers beyond the government itself.

The main point is that it's spreading from the west and not the east. The only companies spreading from Russia are natural gas companies.

---------- Post added at 18:51 ---------- Previous post was at 18:39 ----------

there comes politician , he takes this company and sells it for 1 dollar

competitive company buy it for 1 dollar

destroy it

now they can sell their product

100 people are unemployed, so taxpayers will pay for their benefits

company X who bough it for 1 USD now can sell to this given local market

this is not free market if company is sold for 1% of its price of ground which it stands

(owned by lords to work)

That's how it is in Serbia too (crazy similar). And who finances this politician? The foreign company (in Serbia it was US Steel).

That's how it works for countries on the other end of the liberal capitalist stick.

It's not just similar to imperialism. It is imperialism. And not the Russian kind, as you here in western propaganda.

Edited March 25, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[ProfTournesol 956]

I suggest Eastern countries who think that capitalism (which is only based on the private property of capital) is neo colonialism to go back to the wonderful "people dictatorship", where in theory "the people" owns capital goods but pratically those goods are controlled by a few aparatchiks. The main différences are : (1) complete economical inefficiency (one of the reasons of COMECON collapse) (2) Absolute lack of freedom.

I went to Moscow in the eighties with my father (yes, i'm that old) and saw how wonderful it was. Nobody who saw that would want to go back.

[aleksadragutin 9]

I suggest Eastern countries who think that capitalism (which is only based on the private property of capital) is neo colonialism to go back to the wonderful "people dictatorship", where in theory "the people" owns capital goods but pratically those goods are controlled by a few aparatchiks. The main différences are : (1) complete economical inefficiency (one of the reasons of COMECON collapse) (2) Absolute lack of freedom.

I went to Moscow in the eighties with my father (yes, i'm that old) and saw how wonderful it was. Nobody who saw that would want to go back.

Did you just skip over everything I wrote? And what you're saying is irrelevant to this discussion. Not even sure what it's suppose to mean. Yugoslavia is a proof that you're wrong. We had a very different, liberal communism. Agriculture and Industry was efficient and profitable, we had jeans, Rock n' Roll, freedom of movement, and above all good social programs for ordinary people. We even had economical growth, until the traitors privatized the companies and western firms that bought them closed them down.

Edited March 25, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[ProfTournesol 956]

Did you just skip over everything I wrote? And what you're saying is irrelevant to this discussion.

Nope i didn't. What you say (again about Serbia, as you cannot stick on Ukraine topic) is that all bad things that happens to your country are about capitalist liberalism, which isn't true. What is true is that your country is unable to regulate it, so go on and make it better, as there isn't any other economic system that actually works.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Nope i didn't. What you say (again about Serbia, as you cannot stick on Ukraine topic) is that all bad things that happens to your country are about capitalist liberalism, which isn't true. What is true is that your country is unable to regulate it, so go on and make it better, as there isn't any other economic system that actually works.

I wasn't talking about Serbia at all. I just listed it as an example. It's the same thing happening in Ukraine.

If you're so smart, please enlighten me, how would we go about making it better, when all the governments elected are in the grasp of EU officials, when laws are made that suit only foreign interests and when there's systematic destruction of the economy present (the deal with MMF costed us 15% higher electricity bills, and it wasn't mentioned at all when they signed it).

[ProfTournesol 956]

You have elected your own governement. If you're unhappy with them, just choose another one. All Nationalists across Europe are saying the same things, trying to find scapegoat abroad, EU for example. But they are absolutely unable to propose any working alternative system that isn't a Putin like dictatorship. The Oligarchic system is coming from the East, not from the West, and it's the illegimate child of the ex USSR aparatchik system with uncontrolled capitalism.

[aleksadragutin 9]

You have elected your own governement. If you're unhappy with them, just choose another one. All Nationalists across Europe are saying the same things, trying to find scapegoat abroad, EU for example. But they are absolutely unable to propose any working alternative system that isn't a Putin like dictatorship. The Oligarchic system is coming from the East, not from the West, and it's the illegimate child of the ex USSR aparatchik system with uncontrolled capitalism.

You really have no idea how things work around here. We elect a new government every 4 years with same results (the most recent one was a right wing party, until they came to power, now they're just dicks). Every politician says one thing before elections and does another after. Vilas knows what I'm talking about.

Oligarchy is present in the US. What do you think who controls the congress? The right answer is businessman and companies. Sounds like oligarchy to me.

The things you're saying are ridiculously simplistic, so unless you have a real answer, just don't post.

Edited March 25, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[mistyronin 1181]

You really have no idea how things work around here. We elect a new government every 4 years with same results (the most recent one was a right wing party, until they came to power, now they're just dicks). Every politician says one thing before elections and does another after. Vilas knows what I'm talking about.

Oligarchy is present in the US. What do you think who controls the congress? The right answer is businessman and companies. Sounds like oligarchy to me.

Aleksa I'm not sure you know how politics work in the US or in most of Europe.

Obviously there are influence groups (lobbies), and some of them are formed by businessmen and companies, but others are formed by press, other by actors, others by religious congregations, etc.

They all fluctuate, and there is no preponderant group. Far away from the authoritarian oligarchs in Eastern Europe / Russia or Ukraine.

There's even little parties inside the two main parties in the US for instance (a good example is the tea party inside the G.O.P.), each representing different interests. And even those can vote in opposite directions depending on where are they from...

The liberal capitalism is quite the opposite of the colonialism in fact. As Vilas said, those who work better and cheaper win, that's why a lot of companies moved to countries like India, that's one of the crisis of Europe, that needs to be more efficient and productive, because it's not a bunch of colonial powers anymore.

That's why companies like Nokia (Finland) failed, and others like Huawei (China), Apple (US) or Samsung (South Korea) raised. In order to succeed in the liberal capitalism world it doesn't matter where are you from, but how good and cheap, and intelligent you are.

No matter if you are a superduper mega company that sells millions of books when a poor little shop that decides to sell through the internet can beat you (Amazon).

Or when a reckless student decides to create a website and then becomes a top millionaire within a few years (Facebook, Youtube or Google).

Edited March 25, 2015 by MistyRonin

[ProfTournesol 956]

Oligarchy is present in the US. What do you think who controls the congress? The right answer is businessman and companies. Sounds like oligarchy to me.

The things you're saying are ridiculously simplistic, so unless you have a real answer, just don't post.

Lol, despite your poor attempt of flaming, the above quote isn't a simplistic view :rolleyes:

[aleksadragutin 9]

Aleksa I'm not sure you know how politics work in the US or in most of Europe.

Obviously there are influence groups (lobbies), and some of them are formed by businessmen and companies, but others are formed by press, other by actors, others by religious congregations, etc.

They all fluctuate, and there is no preponderant group. Far away from the authoritarian oligarchs in Eastern Europe / Russia or Ukraine.

There's even little parties inside the two main parties in the US for instance (a good example is the tea party inside the G.O.P.), each representing different interests. And even those can vote in opposite directions depending on where are they from...

The liberal capitalism is quite the opposite of the colonialism in fact. As Vilas said, those who work better and cheaper win, that's why a lot of companies moved to countries like India, that's one of the crisis of Europe, that needs to be more efficient and productive, because it's not a bunch of colonial powers anymore.

That's why companies like Nokia (Finland) failed, and others like Huawei (China), Apple (US) or Samsung (South Korea) raised. In order to succeed in the liberal capitalism world it doesn't matter where are you from, but how good and cheap, and intelligent you are.

No matter if you are a superduper mega company that sells millions of books when a poor little shop that decides to sell through the internet can beat you (Amazon).

Or when a reckless student decides to create a website and then becomes a top millionaire within a few years (Facebook, Youtube or Google).

I understand what you mean, but I'm not sure if you understand what I mean. Lobbies of any kind are illegal in Serbia for a good reason. It's a form of corruption no matter who the lobbyists are.

You know what liberal capitalism is in theory, but in practice it's a bit different especially for low end countries.

Try to look more into the history of privatizations and corruption in Serbia since 2001, and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Look into Smederevska zelezara (СмедеревÑка железара) for example.

It's a textbook example of how you should go about creating a monopoly in a market. The most important thing about liberal capitalism is not free trade etc. it's turning everything into profits (including people), unlike socialist policies which value the human life more.

---------- Post added at 21:04 ---------- Previous post was at 21:00 ----------

Lol, despite your poor attempt of flaming, the above quote isn't a simplistic view :rolleyes:

It's a simplified view, that still hasn't got anything to do with you trying to prove a point when you have no idea how things work outside the safety of your country. You haven't got a clue how things work in Serbia, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland...

And what pisses me off is that you're trying to lecture me without knowing the most basic facts about life here.