Colossus 2 Posted January 22, 2015 Hehe, not sure I'd call a Grad a "return fire only" action type of weapon, but fair enough. :rolleyes: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Advancing into enemy territory did happen after the cease fire was meaningless anyway, isnt it. And the strategically point I was talking about plays maybe a role in certain areas. But I dont have the overview where did the advance happening on the whole frontline. The 19.1.2015 (Click for full size) And heres the 1.1.2015 (Click for full size) Edited January 22, 2015 by beastcat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
negah 26 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UA5R58tAik&fmt=18 Ukrainian army "returning fire" with a GRAD on Donetsk.EIDT: start at 1:00 min. Edited January 22, 2015 by negah Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ProfTournesol 956 Posted January 22, 2015 I'm sorry but those untranslated videos are useless to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
negah 26 Posted January 22, 2015 I do not understand it as well, you have to start at 1:00, it is where the firinig starts. From there its pretty much self explanatory. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted January 22, 2015 I do not understand it as well, you have to start at 1:00, it is where the firinig starts.From there its pretty much self explanatory. No it´s not, at no point you can tell that it is a Ukrainian Grad shooting..... That footage could be rebel Grads just as well. (I have no doubts that the Ukrainian Army did use Grads during the last week, we saw footage of that) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted January 22, 2015 I do not understand it as well, you have to start at 1:00, it is where the firinig starts.From there its pretty much self explanatory. They are saying that there was an artillery duell between the army and the separatists, then they say lights coming from the ground (Grad rockets), which later impacted near the building they were on top off. The dude at the end says that there are no military targets there and that it is the second time this area has been shelled. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
negah 26 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) So rebels would just fire Grads at their own city and the civilians wont notice that? They would instantly lose all their support, and that means open hostilities with the people in the city, no food, partisans and so on. But yeah, Donetsk seems te be shelled by itself all the time, at least thats what the ukrainian government say, and that must be true. @beastcat: thank you for the summary. Edited January 22, 2015 by negah Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) So rebels would just fire Grads at their own city and the civilians wont notice that? They would instantly lose all their support, and that means open hostilities with the people in the city, no food, partisans and so on.But yeah, Donetsk seems te be shelled by itself all the time, at least thats what the ukrainian government say, and that must be true. There are countless times where shelling has been proven to be from the separatists. They use it as propaganda material. What use would it have for the army to shell the city? The citizens will just give up their support for them and the only ones that would believe that the separatists shell themselves would be Ukrainian nationalists and that wouldn't be of use. For the separatists its propaganda material, be it when they shell the city itself (not themselves, but civilians) or be it when they fire from residential areas and then show the return fire on russian TV as random shelling, because it fits into their propaganda narative, you know, Ukrainians are just evil CIA and FBI agents who just want to destroy all the russians.... Well exept for the russians in the 93% of the country that is not under occupation and where there is no fighting going on. Latest example: The Leninsky bus shelling. It was shelled by mortars, but the nearest front is 15-20km away, the mortar most likely used has a range of 4.25km. If you watch russian or separatist tv you will se how evil Ukrainians smuggled in this mortar into the city, fired and dissapeared into thin air without being seen or heard by anyone. -snip- :D Edited January 22, 2015 by beastcat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
negah 26 Posted January 22, 2015 But thats the same arguments that can be used against why the separatists have done it. Because you know, you cant just go with a Grad to the front line and shoot it on the city without the army noticing it, and you cant just shoot that grad from somewhere else and claim it was the army, especially at night when there were propably dozens of civilians who have seen that. Why the army would do that? Maybe due to incompetence (they were even shooting each other after all once or twice), maybe because they simply dont care and have assumed that the separatist artillery was in that location. As for that bus shelling, apparently the attackers were captured, so did not disappear into thin air. And as we know provocation, sabotage, and similar actions behind the front line are part of warfare. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Why the army would do that? Maybe due to incompetence (they were even shooting each other after all once or twice), maybe because they simply dont care and have assumed that the separatist artillery was in that location. That I don't deny, the army is indeed pretty shit, but deliberate shelling of civilian areas is a trait the separatists have in order to use it for their propaganda. As for why the people don't notice from which direction or from how far the shelling is, they don't constantly watch the skies (You wont see the projectile coming anyway), they lack the knowledge to analyse the shells and the only source of information they have is russian television telling them that the Ukrainian army is trying to murder them. When your house gets hit by rockets you will be most likely inside, when you walk on the streets you only see the explosion. You don't see from where the shelling is coming from and the first people to arrive at the scene are russian reporters, who then go around asking the people questions like "How do you feel about the fashist junta nazi jews from america shelling you 5 minutes ago?" Oh and about the neutrality of the OSCE: Monitoring officer retweeting russian propaganda that has been long disproven, even by the OSCE itself. How did the separatists manage to position their main base in Slovyansk? These guys are sillier than right sector. Edited January 22, 2015 by beastcat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aleksadragutin 9 Posted January 22, 2015 That I don't deny, the army is indeed pretty shit, but deliberate shelling of civilian areas is a trait the separatists have in order to use it for their propaganda. As for why the people don't notice from which direction or from how far the shelling is, they don't constantly watch the skies (You wont see the projectile coming anyway), they lack the knowledge to analyse the shells and the only source of information they have is russian television telling them that the Ukrainian army is trying to murder them. When your house gets hit by rockets you will be most likely inside, when you walk on the streets you only see the explosion. You don't see from where the shelling is coming from and the first people to arrive at the scene are russian reporters, who then go around asking the people questions like "How do you feel about the fashist junta nazi jews from america shelling you 5 minutes ago?" Oh and about the neutrality of the OSCE: http://puu.sh/eSSmV/92733b8659.jpg Monitoring officer retweeting russian propaganda that has been long disproven, even by the OSCE itself. How did the separatists manage to position their main base in Slovyansk? These guys are sillier than right sector. So looks like OSCE is not neutral, separatists firing on themselves, and all of that sounds way more likely then just UA making a mistake. Come on, you can't just blame everything that happens on the separatists. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted January 22, 2015 But the cease fire was broken only by one side ? Mainly. In fact a lot of pro-Russian leaders said that they don't recognize any agreement and that they will do as they please. It's not that they are trying to hide it. - - - ( The Guardian ) Donetsk trolleybus explosion blows Ukraine peace negotiations apart As has happened many times during the conflict, the two sides had starkly differing versions of the incident. Rebel gunmen on the scene said it had been carried out by a pro-Ukrainian diversionary group operating from within rebel territory. They later announced that those responsible had been detained, but there was no further information about who they were and how they were caught.The impact craters suggested the incoming shell had come from the north-west, which meant it could have been fired from Ukrainian positions close to the airport. However, Ukrainian officials said their forces were located too far from the spot to be responsible, with the prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, calling it “a terrible act against humanity†committed by “Russian terroristsâ€. The location did indeed appear to be out of mortar range for Ukrainian positions, though it also seemed unlikely that separatists would have any reason to carry out the attack. One local said the rebels had been repairing tanks in a factory across the street from the blast, which was perhaps the target. Others agreed that there was frequent movement of heavy armour in the immediate vicinity. There is also a Soviet-era military college, now used by rebel troops, nearby. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Mainly. In fact a lot of pro-Russian leaders said that they don't recognize any agreement and that they will do as they please. It's not that they are trying to hide it. - - - ( The Guardian ) Donetsk trolleybus explosion blows Ukraine peace negotiations apart Well, which news source is saying that "mainly" one side did brake the cease fire in the days after the 5th september ? Iam open for all kind of infos and dont want to just claim something, but the two news links which I did post are saying that both groups did blame each other. Edited January 22, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted January 22, 2015 So looks like OSCE is not neutral, separatists firing on themselves, and all of that sounds way more likely then just UA making a mistake. Come on, you can't just blame everything that happens on the separatists. I'm not blaming everything on the separatists, but as for the neutrality of the OSCE, I just showed what a monitoring officer of the OSCE posted. And it does indeed seem much more likely that the separatists hit the city, than that Ukrainians have invisible teleporting mortars. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted January 22, 2015 Well, which news source is saying that "mainly" one side did brake the cease fire in the days after the 5th september ?Iam open for all kind of infos and dont want to just claim something, but the two news links which I did post are saying that both groups did blame each other. From diff sources from around the globe ( America, Asia, Africa and Europe ). ( NBC ) Separatists in Ukraine Ignore U.S.-Russia Deal: Report ( April ) ( Al Jazeera ) Pro-Russian separatists attack Ukrainian posts, ignoring cease-fire ( June ) ( NAN ) Pro-Russian separatists break ceasefire agreement with Ukraine ( September ) ( The Telegraph ) Ukraine peace plan blow as rebels reject Donetsk and Luhansk autonomy deal ( October ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted January 22, 2015 From diff sources from around the globe ( America, Asia, Africa and Europe ).( NBC ) Separatists in Ukraine Ignore U.S.-Russia Deal: Report ( April ) ( Al Jazeera ) Pro-Russian separatists attack Ukrainian posts, ignoring cease-fire ( June ) ( NAN ) Pro-Russian separatists break ceasefire agreement with Ukraine ( September ) ( The Telegraph ) Ukraine peace plan blow as rebels reject Donetsk and Luhansk autonomy deal ( October ) What especially counts are the reactions to the ceasefire around the day and the days after the agreement. 5th september 2014. I remember slightly about the speperatists and there were issues like you say, but at the end they did sign it. But critics and problems with the recognition had aswell ukrainian politicians: 13th September, 2014 Mr Yatsenyuk, by contrast, described the ceasefire agreement as merely a "pause" that would allow time to "regroup". He also opposed holding any bilateral negotiations with Russia, saying that America and the European Union should be present at any meeting to strengthen Ukraine's bargaining power. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11094351/Russians-are-trying-to-eliminate-our-country-says-Ukrainian-prime-minister.html Seems like both sides had issues with the agreement and the cease fire..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oxmox 73 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) 500 US-mercenaries from Academi former Blackwater inside Ukraine In an interview on the german state TV channel "Phoenix", it was mentioned that among others 500 US-Mercenaries from the private company Academi (former Blackwater) are inside the Ukraine. (1:00min) Edited January 23, 2015 by oxmox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwarden 1125 Posted January 23, 2015 So rebels would just fire Grads at their own city and the civilians wont notice that? They would instantly lose all their support, and that means open hostilities with the people in the city, no food, partisans and so on.But yeah, Donetsk seems te be shelled by itself all the time, at least thats what the ukrainian government say, and that must be true. @beastcat: thank you for the summary. civilians have no idea from wtf the grad rockets come false flag operations are common by Rebels ... like that mortar with 4.5km range hitting civilians being 'secret operation' by UKR army (nearest guardpost 12km) to fire exactly 1 shell :) sorry but why would UKR shelled civilian areas at all ? considering they want them back including the population ... the only who has anything to gain from angry civilians are pro-Russian forces, cause they can then ask Russia to step in to protect Russian citizens Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beastcat 14 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) 500 US-mercenaries from Academi former Blackwater inside UkraineIn an interview on the german state TV channel "Phoenix", it was mentioned that among others 500 US-Mercenaries from the private company Academi (former Blackwater) are inside the Ukraine. (1:00min) The only media I can find writing about Blackwater in Ukraine is russian media and german media writing about "supposed" blackwater mercenaries. Is there an actual source on that? New tech the separatists "found". Remember the tanks we've seen driving to the border from russia? At the end there is a tank, maybe its the same type? Edited January 23, 2015 by beastcat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) 500 US-mercenaries from Academi former Blackwater inside UkraineIn an interview on the german state TV channel "Phoenix", it was mentioned that among others 500 US-Mercenaries from the private company Academi (former Blackwater) are inside the Ukraine. (1:00min) Well it would make sense. But then this guy reports numbers that are not true. He speaks of 40 Billion Euros that the German industry has lost due to the sanctions (repeating what the Russian press is saying), just this morning I heard on the news that Germany lost "only" 6 billion. I´m not sure how credible he is. @Beastcat Really hard to tell what kind of tank that is with that resolution. Do we have someone who can identify it by engine noise? Edited January 23, 2015 by Tonci87 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keeway 287 Posted January 23, 2015 DONBASS-INFORMATION : 17.01.20150: Up to 700 Ukrainian soldiers killed in last five days of increased fighting https://m.vk.com/wall-41232698_964862 … pic.twitter.com/Ue4Pjba89A ‪#‎Donetsk‬ In five days Ukrainian forces lost 2,000 wounded, 25% of equipment, 700 killed and missing - Fort Russ http://ln.is/blogspot.com/oxy2q … Донецк аÑропорт ÑÐµÐ³Ð¾Ð´Ð½Ñ / Donetsk Airport Today. pic.twitter.com/hhnQsIikfD The few remaining Ukr soldiers in airport controlled by ‪#‎NAF‬ are absolutely desperate to leave but higher command won't let them BREAKING Just spoken to "Slavik", Ukr soldier (80th regiment) now in new terminal of airport. "Situation very, very bad; we need help" (1/3) 3 fuel wagons, part of a military supply train, destroyed by ‪#‎partisan‬ RPG in ‪#‎Kharkov‬. ‪#‎Ukies‬ install 7 checkpoints around city. Attack on fuel tankers in #Kharkov carried out by partisans with RPG -- pic.twitter.com/LuscR3rgBh ‪#‎Gorlovka‬ under another huge artillery strike from ‪#‎Ukraine‬ army, dead civilians reported #Ukies have moved reserve troops into throat of ‪#‎Debaltsevo‬ salient to prevent a cauldron. ‪#‎Travnevoe‬ still under #NAF control ‪#‎Novorossiya‬ - Heavy shelling at Donetsk airport now under "Novorossiya Armed Forces" #NAF https://www.youtube.com/watch… … VIDEO: Burning fuel tanks in ‪#‎Kharkiv‬, #Ukraine. Reportedly destroyed by #NAF saboteurs. …Fresh from behind the enemy lines, ‪#‎Sheblinka‬ railway station sabotage video footage. ‪#‎ATO‬ ‪#‎Khrakov‬ …Rail road sabotage in #Kharkov region. Somebody fired a rocket launcher at a gasoline tank wagon at #Sheblinka railway station. Huge fire. ‪#‎Ukrainian‬ reinforcements arrive in ‪#‎Mariupol‬: a column of 50 vehicles, 12 of which are Grad MRLS. #NAF digs in on the ‪#‎Eastern‬ side #Donetsk republic says Ukrainian army used phosphorus bombs in attack on Donetsk airport ‪#‎fascism‬ ‪#‎DPR‬ ‪#‎LPR‬ #Donbas Smoke rolls, an APC speeds into Donetsk airport, as #NAF forces now control the new terminal. … #DonetskairportNAF are reporting the #Ukraine army has massed 100 tanks on the S.W. of #Donetsk city #cdnpoli Drone view ower Donetsk airport #BREAKING: Rebel sources claim #Ukraine just carried out a series of airstrikes in #Donetsk UNCONFIRMED REPORTS that NAF troops have entered outskirts of #Mariupol #Ukraine #cdnpoli CONFIRMED NAF troops have entered outskirts of #Mariupol after #Ukraine forces retreated into the city #cdnpoli #NAF is pushing into village of #Luganskaya. Both sides extensively use artillery, tanks, and are in house-to-house combat. Pure hell. #ATO Explosion in the center of Odessa http://liveuamap.com/…/16-january-explosion-in-the-center-o… … A video is out claiming to show 'airstrike of UkroArmy' on Donetsk airport area, but this sources says it was Grad …See, #Europe, See: Documentary: Fascism in #Ukraine - civilian slaughter in #Donbass http://www.sott.net/…/291425-Documentary-Fascism-in-Ukraine… … pic.twitter.com/58tppUxoAH WHO reports 4,808 killed and 10,468 wounded by #Poroshenko's senseless terror against #Donbass people as of 6 January.http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150116/1016977387.html … Our illustrious #Novorossia reporter GrahamWP_UK with a handful #NAF heroes after liberating #Donetsk airport today. Everybody even in the west knows #Ukraine is getting kicked out of #Donetsk by #NAF. Your lies about #Russia are worn out A grenade blew up in a #Kiev suburb last night. Several cars were damaged. Tell #RightSector scum to stop juggling hand grenades.# #Donetsk (mostly Petrovsky district) was sporadically shelled last night by #Ukrainian arty. 2 dead civilians + a woman lost her leg. #Ukrainians are bringing in the big guns: MRLS Smerch near #Gorskoe, most likely intends to pound #NAF-controlled #Novotashkovskoe. #Ukrainian naval special forces commander Cpt. Yuri Olefirenko died in combat at #Granitnoe, #NAF mortars. #ATO #DNR #Slavyanoserbsk had suffered greatly from #Ukrainian artillery shelling. ~100 homes damaged, 20 of them destroyed completely. #ATO #LNR Fighting over #NAF-contested #Granitnoe continues, sounds like #Aidar NG battalion is among #Ukrainian troops who refuse to give up. New combat situation map from #NAF. #ATO #DNR #LNR pic.twitter.com/Qbk3XTGPUC #NAF commander #Motorola's interview at #Donetsk airport: NAF: 1 KIA, 5 WIA during the assault. UA: heavy casualties. http://youtube.com/watch?v=VWTMNpaANTY … New round of mobilization may stir new protests in #Ukraine http://itar-tass.com/en/world/771684 Poroshenko will conscript cats dogs & sheep, not pigs? #DNR administration reports: #Ukrainian diplomatic mission withdrew itself from Minsk protocol, #CeaseFire negotiation. #TorpedoThePeace #NAF recaptures #Lebedinskoe (East of #Mariupol) and breaks through the city outside perimeter (Ordzhonikidzevskiy district) defenses. #ATO #Debaltsevo is in serious risk of encirclement by #NAF and #Ukrainian military is urgently sending new reinforcements into the area. #LNR cossacks & #Prizrak armored brigade are fighting in #Troitskoe (E of #Debaltsevo), #NAF force recon is harassing #Svetlodarsk (W of D). #Ukrainian-held #Debaltsevo is in grave humanitarian situation, as the army stopped delivering gasoline and food to the locals. Ukra-Source : Ukrainian army starts tank assault on #Donetsk airport. Guns and artillery also used. Ukra-Source : Tanks arriving by train in #Taganrog, will probably go to #Novoazovsk for #Mariupol attacks: pic.twitter.com/0evW0yg0py Ukra-Source : #Russia|n militants, supported by the Russian army, took parts of Stanytsi Luhanska See the DESTROYED #Donetsk Airport now under DPR control FULL VIDEO: http://ow.ly/Htzjy This old fellow in #Donetsk sings about the hardship of war http://bit.ly/1E8Vrq1 in the great #Russia tradition of people's poetry MST WTCH: Pt 5 'Roses Have Thorns'. Its now the 2nd ATO. Part 5 best yet. Do watch. #donetsk #donbass #Novorossiya … Source: https://www.facebook.com/PolskaiNoworosja Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonci87 163 Posted January 23, 2015 What a load of propaganda! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mistyronin 1181 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) What especially counts are the reactions to the ceasefire around the day and the days after the agreement. 5th september 2014. Ok, then, what about today? ( BBC ) Ukraine rebel Zakharchenko 'rejects truce talks' The main pro-Russian rebel leader in eastern Ukraine says his troops are on the offensive and he does not want truce talks with Kiev. The government and its Western allies say Russian regular troops are fighting alongside the separatists, using Russian heavy artillery and tanks. Moscow insists that only Russian "volunteers" have joined the rebels.Mr Zakharchenko said "we'll attack right up to the borders of Donetsk region, but if I see a threat from other directions we'll neutralise it". "Kiev doesn't understand now that we can attack in three directions simultaneously," Russian media quoted him as saying. If you had any doubts about how trustful the BBC is... ( Sputnik News, aka former RIA Novosti turned RT ) DPR Leader Says Abandoning Attempts to Speak to Kiev About Ceasefire DPR leader Alexander Zakharchenko stated that eastern Ukrainian self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic will no longer make attempts to speak with Kiev on the subject of a ceasefire. Edited January 23, 2015 by MistyRonin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dwarden 1125 Posted January 23, 2015 just to finish the talk about the 'how can 4 mortar shells strike fast from one mortar" look what Rebels have , 4-round mortar on truck http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlOFK2mgGmA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
