Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

( The Guardian ) They were never there: Russia's silence for families of troops killed in Ukraine

The Kremlin denies sending troops into the conflict in east Ukraine, but Russian relatives of those who have served and died across the border tell a different story

A growing body of information about Russian soldiers killed in Ukraine has started to reveal a damning picture of Moscow’s intervention in the separatist conflict there, despite Kremlin denials of involvement.

As fighting continued to flare in the east particularly around Donetsk airport, an online organisation has catalogued more than 260 people reportedly killed in eastern Ukraine. The Open Russia organisation , started by the Kremlin critic Mikhail Khodorkovsky, has also published a map showing where the dead are from.

The official denial of Russian military participation in Ukraine has pressured the relatives of those who served and died there to keep silent, and could deprive many of them of the benefits to which they are entitled. But some have started to speak out.

Open Russia organization website

[aleksadragutin 9]

Or Bushmaster M4A3. Or Norinco CQ-A. Or Astra StG-4 Carbine. Or older generation Luvo (Czech AR). Or even Molot Vepr-15 VPO-140. Yes, even Russians make AR-15s, this rifle is popular not only in USA. My point was that we don't know who made that ARs, and who provided them as Life News video doesn't show the markings.

But even if those are Colt M4A1s, that actually means nothing - Colt is open to any military/LE customer and even ITAR is no problem (Russian SF are full of ITAR-regulated stuff). But if You're trying to say that these guns are "gift" from US gov't, well then where are unfamous US "military advisors"? If You'll look past to Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan (80s war) or Southern America, You'd notice that US involvement was rather direct. So, my bet is that US aid to Ukraine is marginal, if any - because nowadays so called "western democracies" lack any values to stand against their enemies. Money - that's the one and only thing that matters, and conflict with Russia equals less money. So they'll repeat publicly the same old story about "helping our allies" but in reality they won't do anything.

Nope, take a look at the pictures. StG-4? Really? CQ-A has a different nob on the right side where the fire select is on the left(You can notice that they are standard ones in the video). Bushmaster M4A3 has much thinner hand holder. And it's definitely not Vepr or Luvo. Kalashnikov is open to foreign markets too,so why shouldn't it give some to DPR and LPR? And just because US attacked Korea and Afghanistan, is this reason to believe that they are incapable of covert actions? There are many examples that show otherwise.

[spooky lynx 73]

So....where exactly do the separatist get all that ammunition from? Do they sell Grad rockets in surplus stores?

The amount of weapons and ammo of every kind left to Ukraine after USSR collapse is enough to fill the needs of two full-scale WW2-style fronts. So even without mentioning huge amount already sold since 1991 there's plenty of military hardware stored.

This is a few days old but yeah:

http://youtu.be/O5CQ1edznoc

Russian Naval Infantry Wikipedia

Ehm... Well, who are those guys then?

http://rusvesna.su/sites/default/files/styles/orign_wm/public/pravyy_sektor_zaporozhe_0.jpg?itok=F9NmpRTy (181 kB)

[Tonci87 163]

The amount of weapons and ammo of every kind left to Ukraine after USSR collapse is enough to fill the needs of two full-scale WW2-style fronts. So even without mentioning huge amount already sold since 1991 there's plenty of military hardware stored.

True, Ukriane had a lot of ex Soviet stores. But the DPR doesn´t.

[aleksadragutin 9]

True, Ukriane had a lot of ex Soviet stores. But the DPR doesn´t.

Actually eastern Ukraine is the industrial heart of the country...

[Tonci87 163]

Actually eastern Ukraine is the industrial heart of the country...

What was the first thing the JNA did when Croatia declared it´s independence? In fact they did it even earlier than that.

I´ll tell you: Disarming of the Croatian national guard and the police. Transfer of all weapon stores to Serbia. What couldn´t be transfered was bombed. Do you think the Ukrainian military would let huge weapon storage fall into the hands of rebels? No they would bomb them or destroy them otherwise.

For how long has this conflict been going? With daily shelling and exchange of heavy fire? Even if they did capture a few stores, that stuff ran out in the first two months. The consumption, especially of Artillery ammunition, is simply too high. Now they are getting their stuff from Russia and you would have to be a huge fool to think something else.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Tonci87

[aleksadragutin 9]

What was the first thing the JNA did when Croatia declared it´s independence? In fact they did it even earlier than that.

I´ll tell you: Disarming of the Croatian national guard and the police. Transfer of all weapon stores to Serbia. What couldn´t be transfered was bombed. Do you think the Ukrainian military would let huge weapon storage fall into the hands of rebels? No they would bomb them or destroy them otherwise.

For how long has this conflict been going? With daily shelling and exchange of heavy fire? Even if they did capture a few stores, that stuff ran out in the first two months. The consumption, especially of Artillery ammunition, is simply too high. Now they are getting their stuff from Russia and you would have to be a huge fool to think something else.

You obviously don't remember it's beginning. The separatists raided depots in preparation for the upcoming UA assault announced by Kiev. And do you remember what Croatia did after declaring independence (Croatia was at war for 5 years so where did it get it's ammo from?)? It attacked JNA bases and captured equipment (same here). Just remember the first territories under separatist control, before the attack came. It was a big chunk of land. A huge amount of storage was under separatist control, and with Slavyansk being overrun, they moved it south. It's irrational to use up all your ammo in the first moments of the war, and what info do you have that proves they ran out of their own ammo?

Edited January 20, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[beastcat 14]

Bellingcat - How Did American Weapons End Up at Donetsk Airport?

On January 15th, Russian news agency RIA Novosti reported claims by Donetsk People’s Repulic’s (DNR) PM Aleksandr Zakharchenko that American weapons were found from areas of the airport previously occupied by Ukrainian forces. It was specifically claimed that the types of weapons included M-16 assault rifles, machine guns, Browning pistols as well as types of ammunition ‘banned by conventions’. Deputy Eduard Basurin also claimed the weapons were shown to OSCE observers, though RIA Novosti separately reported OSCE observers did not actually visit the airport, a fact which was also noted in the OSCE SMM daily report.

However, on Twitter it was pointed out that Russian troops are not unfamiliar with the M4. During the Russo-Georgian war of 2008, Bushmaster M4 rifles were looted by Russian troops, along with other weapons of Georgia’s army.

Related to the guns looted, a very interesting observation was made in 2010 on American hobbyist forums about the guns being destroyed: Israeli Negev machine guns were among the loot being destroyed.

A nice reference photograph of a Negev can be found on a Russian LiveJournal page’s photo album titled 7-Ñ Ð´ÐµÑантно-ÑˆÑ‚ÑƒÑ€Ð¼Ð¾Ð²Ð°Ñ Ð´Ð¸Ð²Ð¸Ð·Ð¸Ñ, 7th Airborne Assault Division.

A Google search reveals the unit in question is a Russian Airborne (VDV) troops unit based in Novorossiysk, near Crimea, about 300km south of Rostov-on-Don and about 400km from Georgian territory. What is also interesting is that the same picture with the Negev also includes a Bushmaster XM15-E2S, M4-family carbine, as well as a Browning M1911-style pistol.

[roberthammer 582]

Yea those are Bushmaster made M4 - those ones look like M4A3 and that Negev can be the Fort one

also those pistols - Makarov PM , PSS Silent Pistol , MP-443 Grach and M1911

Edited January 20, 2015 by RobertHammer

[beastcat 14]

Yea those are Bushmaster made M4 - those ones look like M4A3 and that Negev can be the Fort one

also those pistols - Makarov PM , PSS Silent Pistol , MP-443 Grach and M1911

The guns in the first 3 pictures are russians capturing weapons from Georgia and the last one shows weapons that belong to the 7th Airborne Assault Division of the RF, so thats most likely not a Fort Negev, but an IMI Negev or some kind of Georgian production.

[Tonci87 163]

You obviously don't remember it's beginning. The separatists raided depots in preparation for the upcoming UA assault announced by Kiev. And do you remember what Croatia did after declaring independence (Croatia was at war for 5 years so where did it get it's ammo from?)? It attacked JNA bases and captured equipment (same here). Just remember the first territories under separatist control, before the attack came. It was a big chunk of land. A huge amount of storage was under separatist control, and with Slavyansk being overrun, they moved it south. It's irrational to use up all your ammo in the first moments of the war, and what info do you have that proves they ran out of their own ammo?

Yes Croatia attacked JNA bases but gained very little equipment by doing that (because the heavy stuff had already been transfered to Serbia). Yugoslavia saw what had happened in Slovenia and they knew that it is going to repeat itself in Croatia, therefore they dissarmed the police and took all weapons away to Serbia. During the first few months Croatia had almost no heavy weapons. Due to the weapons embargo it was very difficult to buy weapons from abroad, so everything had to be bought on the black market.

EDIT:

Ukraine is beginning partial mobilisation. 50000 men are beeing drawn into the military now, 50000 more will be drawn from April to June

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/ukraine-krise-129.html

The Separatists and Russia are criticizing this step (well shouldn´t have broken the ceasefire agreement then)

Edited January 20, 2015 by Tonci87

[Dwarden 1125]

stop posting propaganda stuff from older conflicts or unrelated zones, thanks

[spooky lynx 73]

True, Ukriane had a lot of ex Soviet stores. But the DPR doesn´t.

DPR has one of the largest armor storage base in Artemovsk. And a facility where PTS transporters were produced. That's what I know of. Oh and very large ammo&weapon stocks in Soledar.

[ProfTournesol 956]

DPR has one of the largest armor storage base in Artemovsk. And a facility where PTS transporters were produced. That's what I know of. Oh and very large ammo&weapon stocks in Soledar.

So Russia isn't supplying weapons to the separatists ?

[spooky lynx 73]

So Russia isn't supplying weapons to the separatists ?

In not so much quantities as it is often told. No need to drag T-64's, BTR-70/80, MTLBs, Strela-10, T-72s and arty through the border as there are plenty of such stuff stationed in Ukraine already. It's much easier and faster to find and train crews and bring some missing spares if needed.

Look what is stored just at the place of the fighting:

http://interpolit.ru/_bl/17/46355778.jpg (293 kB)

http://wio.ru/anti/t/t72a-t64.jpg (367 kB)

http://s00.yaplakal.com/pics/pics_original/7/6/3/3441367.jpg (172 kB)

http://ye.ua/images/upload/1404482222.jpg (185 kB)

Oh and...

http://media.vocativ.com/photos/2014/01/Weapons-Of-Ukrainian-Protestors-Poster2254229321.jpg (239 kB)

KSK operative or Bundeswehr serviceman among maidanuts! German army storms Kiev!

[beastcat 14]

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

In not so much quantities as it is often told.

Holy shit, did you just actually admit that Russia is supplying the separatists (At least in small quantities)? Wow. Edited January 20, 2015 by beastcat

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yes Croatia attacked JNA bases but gained very little equipment by doing that (because the heavy stuff had already been transfered to Serbia). Yugoslavia saw what had happened in Slovenia and they knew that it is going to repeat itself in Croatia, therefore they dissarmed the police and took all weapons away to Serbia. During the first few months Croatia had almost no heavy weapons. Due to the weapons embargo it was very difficult to buy weapons from abroad, so everything had to be bought on the black market.

EDIT:

Ukraine is beginning partial mobilisation. 50000 men are beeing drawn into the military now, 50000 more will be drawn from April to June

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/ukraine-krise-129.html

The Separatists and Russia are criticizing this step (well shouldn´t have broken the ceasefire agreement then)

So it's possible for Croatia to get equipment from the Black Market, but not for Ukraine separatists?

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

Holy shit, did you just actually admit that Russia is supplying the separatists (At least in small quantities)? Wow.

There's a big difference between sending a tank or sending a tank wheel. And even if they send a whole tank, why is it ok for Ukraine to receive aid, but not for the Separatists? I thought people had a right self determination.

[ProfTournesol 956]

There's a big difference between sending a tank or sending a tank wheel.

So Russia is sending his tanks in DIY like Ikea :p

[aleksadragutin 9]

So Russia is sending his tanks in DIY like Ikea :p

That was just an example, I'm sure that they are just sending tools, if anything.

[spooky lynx 73]

Holy shit, did you just actually admit that Russia is supplying the separatists (At least in small quantities)? Wow.

I've been quite happy seeing BTR-82 in the hands of DPR troops. Not so sure about T-72s with K-5 ERA, but at least we gave some fancy toys to Donbass guys.

BTW some sources say that today a commander of Ukraine's 93th mechanised brigade (and member of Pravy sector party) Oleg Mikats was captured during failed attempt of UA army to attack seized airport.

http://112.ua/politika/kto-idet-na-vybory-v-radu-polnyy-spisok-pravogo-sektora-121911.html

From 0:40 you can see him.

[beastcat 14]

The women are saying "Fine fellows (No idea what its called in english, but thats what Google told me)! They are going to the Ukrainian border!" "Tanks, BTRs, they are all going to the Khokhol border (Derogatory for Ukrainian)"

I've been quite happy seeing BTR-82 in the hands of DPR troops. Not so sure about T-72s with K-5 ERA, but at least we gave some fancy toys to Donbass guys.

And there goes my view on you again. lol

Heres an article about russian T-72-B3s by the way- Edited January 20, 2015 by beastcat

[Maio 293]

The women are saying "Fine fellows (No idea what its called in english, but thats what Google told me)! They are going to the Ukrainian border!" "Tanks, BTRs, they are all going to the Khokhol border (Derogatory for Ukrainian)"

Are those T-80's? They sure look like T-80's...

[beastcat 14]

Are those T-80's? They sure look like T-80's...

I'm no tank expert but that armor looks like some T-80U or T-72BM variant armor.

T-72BM

T-80U

The tanks in the video have the smoke tube thingies on the sides, so I guess those are T80Us

Separatists firing from village.

Edited January 20, 2015 by beastcat

[roberthammer 582]

I think those tanks are T80U since they look wider than T72

like this one http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/T-80U-2002-Kubinka.jpg

[oxmox 73]

Wake up from your armor discussions, something interesting is reported by Reuters:

Ukraine says its forces come under attack from Russian troops

(Reuters) - Ukrainian army units came under attack from Russian regular forces in eastern Ukraine on Tuesday and heavy fighting was taking place, a Ukrainian military spokesman said.

"In spite of preliminary agreements, Ukrainian military units were attacked in the north of the anti-terrorist operational zone by regular military formations of the armed forces of Russia," the spokesman, Andriy Lysenko, said.

"Ukrainian forces have stopped the advance of Russian troops ... The situation in the conflict zone is serious but under our control," Lysenko said at a news briefing.

Ukraine's assertion that its troops were now engaged with Russian regular forces in its separatist-minded eastern regions followed a flurry of charges by Kiev that the Russian military was stepping up incursions to support the rebels.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/20/us-ukraine-crisis-russians-idUSKBN0KT21U20150120?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews