Ukraine General

[aleksadragutin 9]

CIA is known for acting without "government knowledge". Every time something surfaces, the congress says "We had no idea".

[oxmox 73]

Everyone is entitled to it's own opinion, but that last statement is a huge exaggeration.

The most famous alive Hollywood filmmakers are Martin Scorsese, Quentin Tarantino, Woody Allen, Francis Ford Coppola, Steven Spielberg, Clint Eastwood and if you want even James Cameron...

Some would add also Peter Jackson, Ridley Scott, George Lucas and so on... But Oliver Stone is quite far from the main Hollywood directors.

Maybe not one of the biggest but he is definately a name with only mentioning some top titles where he did contribute......

i.e.

* Conan the Barbar

* Platoon

* Born on 4th July

* Natural Born Killers

* U-Turn

* Wall Street

Edited January 2, 2015 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

Stones main objective always was to make a movie that is controversial. How much truth that movie has doesn´t matter to him as long as people talk about it.

[x3kj 1247]

just found this not sure if already posted

[surpher 1]

Also these are supposedly BPM-97s in Ukraine as another red flag item.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6I_KM0IQAAp95d.jpg

Heres the corresponding video:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6JDtdqCcAIFY-p.jpg

Looks like the BPM-97s are indeed in Luhansk.

Yandex StreetView

Location where the video was filmed.

Edited January 3, 2015 by surpher

[mistyronin 1181]

Looks like the BPM-97s are indeed in Luhansk.

http://i.imgur.com/TnFh1Lq.jpg

Yandex StreetView

No, it's an RV bougt in a surplus store.

[beastcat 14]

http://youtu.be/SMOxWRbkMoY

[oxmox 73]

Freed Ukrainian Journalist Says Separatists 'Being Trained For An Offensive'

"Because there are no Ukrainian journalists on that side of the conflict zone, we did not have clear, objective information about the situation on the ground," he says. "I now understand it was an unwise decision. We traveled across the frontline -- by the way, along a route recommended by Ukrainian authorities – where things were very tense, fighting was going on."

Cheremskiy says locals, many of them miners, formed the bulk of the fighters he saw in Rovenky in Luhansk.

To his surprise, almost all the locals locked up with him continued to pledge allegiance to the separatists.

"The situation may be different in other cities, but in Rovenky, 90 percent of those detained still rooted for the Luhansk People's Republic," he says. "The rebels beat them up, take away their cars, rob them, and they still root for the LNR. It's a paradox I hadn't expected."

Cheremskiy attributes this to the disinformation campaign waged on Russian television, which he says portrays Ukrainian forces as bloodthirsty thugs bent on victimizing Russian-speaking locals.

"There were also several dozen Chechens who kept a little to themselves," he adds. "There were also some Ossetians, probably fewer than 10 of them. They wore insignia bearing the words "South Ossetia" and featuring a Russian flag."

As for the separatist commanders he spoke to, Cheremskiy says that, like the weapons, all of them came from Russia.

Despite witnessing how deep separatist sympathies run among the local population, he firmly believes the rebel-held regions will eventually be brought back into Ukraine's fold.

"All of them were 100 percent committed. Their standard arguments were: we didn't invade you, you invaded us and you're the ones shelling us," says Cheremskiy. "They described Ukrainians as fascists and brutes who killed children. They can treat individual people in a decent manner, but they are hostile to Ukraine as a country. They want Ukraine's collapse."

Cheremskiy describes the militants as well armed, and "clearly being trained for an offensive" to capture more Ukrainian territory.

"As soon as the Russians leave, this whole system will collapse because there won't be any more weapons, money, or food," he says. "And with time, when they see that Ukrainians don't kill children or crucify babies, local residents will eventually change their minds."

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-journalist-cheremskiy-separatists/26779805.html

[surpher 1]

(BBC) BBC finds Russians fighting in Ukraine

It is eight months since the start of the conflict in eastern Ukraine, and the fighting has claimed more than 4,000 lives.

Russia has consistently denied its forces are involved, but the BBC has gained access to training camps inside Russia where fighters talk openly about taking on the Ukrainian army.

[beastcat 14]

Spiegel - Todesflug MH17: Wer warum schoss

The Spiegel has published its investigations concerning MH17. Sadly I could find it only in german, but maybe someone can translate it a bit or find it somewhere already in english.

They have a ton of videos that I personally haven't seen that show the Buk moving from Kursk with the 53. Airdefense brigade of the RF to Rostov and then to Ukraine and finally to Torez. They also spoke to locals and the separatists, coming to the conclusion that it most likely had to be actual russian soldiers operating the Buk, as Ukraine couldn't physicaly be there and the separatists wouldn't have the required training to operate it.

What makes this interesting in contrast to other articles on this, is that they have collected videos of the 3x2 Buk moving all the way from Kursk to Ukraine, got interviews with locals and basically combined all the previous knowledge in order to get to a reasoned conclusion.

[Tonci87 163]

Spiegel - Todesflug MH17: Wer warum schoss

The Spiegel has published its investigations concerning MH17. Sadly I could find it only in german, but maybe someone can translate it a bit or find it somewhere already in english.

They have a ton of videos that I personally haven't seen that show the Buk moving from Kursk with the 53. Airdefense brigade of the RF to Rostov and then to Ukraine and finally to Torez. They also spoke to locals and the separatists, coming to the conclusion that it most likely had to be actual russian soldiers operating the Buk, as Ukraine couldn't physicaly be there and the separatists wouldn't have the required training to operate it.

What makes this interesting in contrast to other articles on this, is that they have collected videos of the 3x2 Buk moving all the way from Kursk to Ukraine, got interviews with locals and basically combined all the previous knowledge in order to get to a reasoned conclusion.

Very interesting. They traced the path of the BUK system from Russia to the separatist controled Ukraine. They actually went there, compared location, talked to people, etc. Eyewitnesses who have seen the BUK in that area describe that the BUK was manned by Russian soldiers. The investigators think that they didn´t down a civilian plane on purpose, they just didn´t identify the plane as civilian and assumed that it is military.

A Russian news station that gets updates from the separatists reported that the separatists shot down a Ukrainian AN-26 plane with a BUK , after it was clear what they really killed they reported that the Ukrainians shot down a civilian plane and that the rebels don´t even have BUKs.

The last picture shows the BUK with one missile less on it as it is transported out of the area. That BUK couldn´t have been operated by the Ukrainians since it was in rebel territory the whole time and the rebels don´t have the training to operate it. Russian soldiers did it.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Very interesting. They traced the path of the BUK system from Russia to the separatist controled Ukraine. They actually went there, compared location, talked to people, etc. Eyewitnesses who have seen the BUK in that area describe that the BUK was manned by Russian soldiers. The investigators think that they didn´t down a civilian plane on purpose, they just didn´t identify the plane as civilian and assumed that it is military.

A Russian news station that gets updates from the separatists reported that the separatists shot down a Ukrainian AN-26 plane with a BUK , after it was clear what they really killed they reported that the Ukrainians shot down a civilian plane and that the rebels don´t even have BUKs.

The last picture shows the BUK with one missile less on it as it is transported out of the area. That BUK couldn´t have been operated by the Ukrainians since it was in rebel territory the whole time and the rebels don´t have the training to operate it. Russian soldiers did it.

Interesting, and how did you conclude that it was Russian soldiers inside the BUK?

[beastcat 14]

Interesting, and how did you conclude that it was Russian soldiers inside the BUK?

Eyewitnesses who have seen the BUK in that area describe that the BUK was manned by Russian soldiers.

That BUK couldn´t have been operated by the Ukrainians since it was in rebel territory the whole time and the rebels don´t have the training to operate it. Russian soldiers did it.

It's usually a good idea to read a post first and then ask questions.

Well, unless you are saying it was disguised CIA agents, who pretended to be russian, stole the Buk in Kursk, drove with it across Russia to Rostov without being noticed, then over the border, again without being seen and then shot down the plane in cooperation with the separatists and actual russians, while reporting everything to the russians, because their reptilian zionist overlords told them to.

Edited January 10, 2015 by beastcat

[surpher 1]

(BBC) Rebels 'intensify Donetsk and Luhansk attacks'

Pro-Russian separatists have intensified their shelling of government positions in eastern Ukraine, military officials say.

Four Ukrainian soldiers and two civilians have reportedly been killed in the latest violence in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Officials said the spike in attacks followed the arrival of a Russian aid convoy in the region on Thursday.

(CorrectIV) Flight MH17 - Searching for the truth - Ger

It’s one of the greatest war crimes of modern times – and the truth still hasn’t been told. On July 17th 2014 at about 16:20 local time, Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine. All 298 passengers died, including many children. Who fired the missile? Over several months the Berlin-based investigative newsroom CORRECT!V has gathered facts, investigated in eastern Ukraine and Russia, and found witnesses to the missile launch. The investigation unveiled a clear chain of evidence. MH17 was downed by a ground-launched BUK missile – launched by a unit of the 53rd Russian Air Defense Brigade from Kursk. The brigade unit, tasked with protecting Russian tank units, was operating in mid July on Ukrainian territory without displaying national emblems.

(The New York Times) The Search for Petr Khokhlov

[spooky lynx 73]

Can This Man Save Ukraine's Economy?

As for kthe MH17 story... Well, some journalist investigations are okay, but why there was no release of communications between Kiev and Dnepropetrovsk air controllers and records from 'black box' of the plane? This could really show the real reasons of the accident but not some thoughts by journalists.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Spooky Lynx

[aleksadragutin 9]

It's usually a good idea to read a post first and then ask questions.

Well, unless you are saying it was disguised CIA agents, who pretended to be russian, stole the Buk in Kursk, drove with it across Russia to Rostov without being noticed, then over the border, again without being seen and then shot down the plane in cooperation with the separatists and actual russians, while reporting everything to the russians, because their reptilian zionist overlords told them to.

That seams to be the truth written in stone. The conclusion was reached based on guesses and speculation. There's no solid confirmation of anything in there that would be sufficient to reach that conclusion. How do you know the separatists couldn't have operated the BUK? How do you know that the eyewitnesses aren't mistaking? How do you know they are the eyewitnesses in the first place? How do you know it's the same BUK? And the best thing you can do when you don't have enough info is talk down anyone who opposes your theory.

Edited January 10, 2015 by aleksadragutin

[Tonci87 163]

That seams to be the truth written in stone. The conclusion was reached based on guesses and speculation. There's no solid confirmation of anything in there that would be sufficient to reach that conclusion. How do you know the separatists couldn't have operated the BUK? How do you know that the eyewitnesses aren't mistaking? How do you know there are the eyewitnesses in the first place? How do you know it's the same BUK? And the best thing you can do when you don't have enough info is talk down anyone who opposes your theory.

There was a UK in that area on that day. That is a fact documented by pictures.

The BUK had a very distinctive marking with the center number missing. Fact, that can be seen on pictures.

The investigative team was able to trace back the path of the BUK all the way back into Russia. Again an undisputable fact.

After the plane has been shot down the rebels claimed to have downed a Ukrainian AN-26 with a BUK. That was even reported on Russian TV. Another fact.

After realizing that they downed a civilian plane they changed their story to: The Ukrainians did it with a fighter or a BUK. Rebels don´t even have BUKS or fighters.

The Buk in question was photographed with one missile less on it beeing driven out of the area on a truck. Why does the BUK have a missile less on it? Because it fired that missile. Did any other plane fall out of the sky in that area on that day? No. So where did that missile go? Into MH17.

So you see eyewitnesses aren´t even needed in this case since pictures and logic alone tell you the whole story.

Was the BUK manned by Separatists or Russian soldiers? That is the only real weak point of the investigation. There are only eyewitness reports that the BUK was manned by Russians and the asumption that the Separatists don´t have the trained personel to operate such a system.

But one thing still remains pretty clear: MH17 was shot down with a BUK missile fired from separatist territory from a launcher that was send from Russia.

[aleksadragutin 9]

There was a UK in that area on that day. That is a fact documented by pictures.

The BUK had a very distinctive marking with the center number missing. Fact, that can be seen on pictures.

The investigative team was able to trace back the path of the BUK all the way back into Russia. Again an undisputable fact.

After the plane has been shot down the rebels claimed to have downed a Ukrainian AN-26 with a BUK. That was even reported on Russian TV. Another fact.

After realizing that they downed a civilian plane they changed their story to: The Ukrainians did it with a fighter or a BUK. Rebels don´t even have BUKS or fighters.

The Buk in question was photographed with one missile less on it beeing driven out of the area on a truck. Why does the BUK have a missile less on it? Because it fired that missile. Did any other plane fall out of the sky in that area on that day? No. So where did that missile go? Into MH17.

So you see eyewitnesses aren´t even needed in this case since pictures and logic alone tell you the whole story.

Was the BUK manned by Separatists or Russian soldiers? That is the only real weak point of the investigation. There are only eyewitness reports that the BUK was manned by Russians and the asumption that the Separatists don´t have the trained personel to operate such a system.

But one thing still remains pretty clear: MH17 was shot down with a BUK missile fired from separatist territory from a launcher that was send from Russia.

That really doesn't answer my questions (you can read them again if you like). The MH17 plane wasn't the only aircraft that was downed in Ukraine so it's a guess as to why there would be one missile less. Your point was that clearly the Russian soldiers did it, and that's something you cant claim for sure.

[Tonci87 163]

That really doesn't answer my questions (you can read them again if you like). The MH17 plane wasn't the only aircraft that was downed in Ukraine so it's a guess as to why there would be one missile less.

The same Buk was photographed with all its missiles on it before MH17 was downed.....

Did they just dump a missile by the road?

[aleksadragutin 9]

The same Buk was photographed with all its missiles on it before MH17 was downed.....

Did they just dump a missile by the road?

Do you know for sure that the MH17 was the only air target above the rebel held territory at that time? Was there only one BUK in the area? It still just a suspicion, and if people were to act on suspicion alone we would have had 10 world wars by now.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Do you know for sure that the MH17 was the only air target above the rebel held territory at that time? Was there only one BUK in the area? It still just a suspicion, and if people were to act on suspicion alone we would have had 10 world wars by now.

Who cares about the real / believable target ? The question is who did shoot, not why.

[mistyronin 1181]

Do you know for sure that the MH17 was the only air target above the rebel held territory at that time? Was there only one BUK in the area? It still just a suspicion, and if people were to act on suspicion alone we would have had 10 world wars by now.

What is clear, is that the only side that downed aircrafts in this conflict is the pro-Russian side. The Ukrainian side knows that the pro-Russian side has no aircraft capability. So it's simple. It's also supportd by the comms from that side in the first hours after the downing.

About who was exactly the direct culprit inside the pro-Russian side. It's hard to tell. But again, it's quite clear who is the indirect culprit, the only one that could provide the weapon system, the Russian Army under the Kremlin's orders.

It seems quite clear that the pro-Russians didn't realize that it was a big civilian aircraft, but as Tournesol said, that doesn't change the fact.

Edited January 10, 2015 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

Do you know for sure that the MH17 was the only air target above the rebel held territory at that time? Was there only one BUK in the area? It still just a suspicion, and if people were to act on suspicion alone we would have had 10 world wars by now.

OK, so lets hear what you think. What did according to you shot down MH 17? Go ahead.

[aleksadragutin 9]

OK, so lets hear what you think. What did according to you shot down MH 17? Go ahead.

I reserve my self from thinking until I have enough information.

[Tonci87 163]

I reserve my self from thinking until I have enough information.

OK then, go ahead and say where the investigation is wrong.