Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

mmh I dont think so people had it better under stalin and this is a little exxagerated comparison... .

The open markets in the 90s under Jelzin were catastrophic. Western nations would have probably appreciate to prolong the situation of open markets in the 90s under Jelzin, in the time when Oligarchs did took power, Russia was on the bottom and the people did fell into poverty. It was a catastrophic situation for them. Putin is not a flawless democrat, but it is Putins achievement that he did lead Russia out of misery or/and avoiding the downfall. The methodes he used are of course questionable. When was Russia ever a free and democratic nation ? Under the Czar, Stalin or Brezhnev ?

Nah, the russians do not have it that bad under Putin...not perfect...but it could be worse.

Worse ? Of course. Better, for sure. Putin and his Oligarch clique are stealing Russian people's money, look at Putin's wealth or Sotchy amazing costs of corruption...But all of this should be in the Russia discussion, i'll stop it here.

[Tonci87 163]

mmh I dont think so people had it better under stalin and this is a little exxagerated comparison... .

The open markets in the 90s under Jelzin were catastrophic. Western nations would have probably appreciate to prolong the situation of open markets in the 90s under Jelzin, in the time when Oligarchs did took power, Russia was on the bottom and the people did fell into poverty. It was a catastrophic situation for them. Putin is not a flawless democrat, but it is Putins achievement that he did lead Russia out of misery or/and avoiding the downfall. The methodes he used are of course questionable. When was Russia ever a free and democratic nation ? Under the Czar, Stalin or Brezhnev ?

Nah, the russians do not have it that bad under Putin...not perfect...but it could be worse.

Are you sure? The income isn´t that high, and many people might loose their jobs next year. Currently the people can´t afford what they are used to.

Sure at thze beginning Putin has done some things to improve the life of Russians (wich really coudn´t be much worse at that time) but he is throwing it all away so freaking fast now....

[oxmox 73]

lets switch to the Russian thread

[spooky lynx 73]

Meanwhile Novorossia special forces killed three members of Ukrainian NG (Donbass batallion) saboteur group who used 82-mm mortar in Donetsk to provoke artillery fire of Ukrainian army on the civil houses.

Also DPR servicemen discovered fake press IDs among other documents found on bodies.

[ProfTournesol 956]

"Novorossia special forces" what is this thing again ? You seriously think that "Novorossia" does exist outside of the mind of Russian extreme nationalists ?

[spooky lynx 73]

Wikipedia will help you. And now this name is applied to Eastern regions of modern Ukraine as their territory was included in Novorossia earlier.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Wikipedia will help you. And now this name is applied to Eastern regions of modern Ukraine as their territory was included in Novorossia earlier.

So that proves me right. It doesn't exist per se, only a dangerous nationalist nostalgia. I think France should claim the "Nouvelle France" and take what was called Louisianne back.

[Tonci87 163]

And Germany should totally reclaim Prussia, and Croatia should reclaim the Herzegovina, oh and while we are at it, the Krimkhanate should reclaim half of Russia

[aleksadragutin 9]

So that proves me right. It doesn't exist per se, only a dangerous nationalist nostalgia. I think France should claim the "Nouvelle France" and take what was called Louisianne back.

So if Novorussia doesn't exist, then who is Ukraine fighting (please don't answer "Russians").

---------- Post added at 23:13 ---------- Previous post was at 23:12 ----------

And Germany should totally reclaim Prussia, and Croatia should reclaim the Herzegovina, oh and while we are at it, the Krimkhanate should reclaim half of Russia

I'm actually with you on Croatia taking Herzegovina, after all Bosnia is an artificial creation.

[ProfTournesol 956]

(please don't answer Russians).

There are "ethnic" French (as you like to say) in Belgium, but the "Nouvelle France" doesn't exist.

[aleksadragutin 9]

There are "ethnic" French (as you like to say) in Belgium, but the "Nouvelle France" doesn't exist.

Yes, but the difference is that Novorussia does exist. If it doesn't then there would be no war in Ukraine.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yes, but the difference is that Novorussia does exist. If it doesn't then there would be no war in Ukraine.

This hypothesis implies the Russia isn't directly involved in the conflict, which is blatantly false.

[aleksadragutin 9]

This hypothesis implies the Russia isn't directly involved in the conflict, which is blatantly false.

Russia couldn't do anything if there was no base to begin with.

[spooky lynx 73]

So that proves me right. It doesn't exist per se, only a dangerous nationalist nostalgia. I think France should claim the "Nouvelle France" and take what was called Louisianne back.

LOLWUT? Your govt is not even able to escape loss of some billions of Euro after Mistral deal suspension due to strong love of US interests in Ukraine. Black Overlord will punish Hollande even for thoughts about it. But you still may do some deeds in former African colonies. Already approved.

And Germany should totally reclaim Prussia, and Croatia should reclaim the Herzegovina, oh and while we are at it, the Krimkhanate should reclaim half of Russia

Croatia? Already tried to do it, according to ICTY:) Oh and granting citizenship... Where had I seen the same? Damn, sure, Russia was blamed for the same in Osetia and Abhasia 16 years later!

[ProfTournesol 956]

LOLWUT? Your govt is not even able to escape loss of some billions of Euro after Mistral deal suspension due to strong love of US interests in Ukraine. Black Overlord will punish Hollande even for thoughts about it. But you still may do some deeds in former African colonies. Already approved.

I don't see how this is even remotely connected to what i said, but whatever. Put the blame on others, the best way to avoid any progress whatsoever.

[aleksadragutin 9]

I don't see how this is even remotely connected to what i said, but whatever. Put the blame on others, the best way to avoid any progress whatsoever.

Ok, if you want to asign blame, asign it to all that are guilty, not just shooting for one country and proclaiming it the root of all evil.

[Tonci87 163]

Croatia? Already tried to do it, according to ICTY:) Oh and granting citizenship... Where had I seen the same? Damn, sure, Russia was blamed for the same in Osetia and Abhasia 16 years later!

The Republic of Herzeg-Bosna is an artificial state (as much as is todays BiH, I have to agree) and doesn´t have much in common with Croatias historical claims on the Herzegovina. There is a huge Croatian majority in the Herzegovina while Bosnia is mainly inhabited by Bosniaks (the only difference beeing that the Bosniaks are Croatians/Serbs who converted to Islam during the Osman rule and married into Osman families and various people from the Osman realm who immigrated there).

[aleksadragutin 9]

The Republic of Herzeg-Bosna is an artificial state (as much as is todays BiH, I have to agree) and doesn´t have much in common with Croatias historical claims on the Herzegovina. There is a huge Croatian majority in the Herzegovina while Bosnia is mainly inhabited by Bosniaks (the only difference beeing that the Bosniaks are Croatians/Serbs who converted to Islam during the Osman rule and married into Osman families and various people from the Osman realm who immigrated there).

Yes, Bosnia should have been split between Serbia and Croatia.

But keep in mind that the borders of modern day Ukraine are also am artificial creation.

[Tonci87 163]

Yes, Bosnia should have been split between Serbia and Croatia.

But keep in mind that the borders of modern day Ukraine are also am artificial creation.

No it really shouldn´t have, Before the war there were no clear borders of the ethnic groups, look at this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Ethnic_makeup_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_before_and_after_the_war.jpg (196 kB)

As you can see before the war Bosniaks lived all over the country, Serbs lived all oder the country and Croats lived all over the country. It was impossible to draw any borders so that all three somehow get their own state. It still is although it became easier due to the Serb ethnic cleansing. Serbians would live in two little mini states that are only connected by a narrow corridor so they would have to drive through Bosnia if they want to get from one side to the other. Serbia could annex those territories but it would drive a large wedge between the Bosnian and Croatian territories. The Bosniaks would have two little states that are not connected to each other. They couldn´t exist on their own. Croatia could annex the Herzegovina. As you see, there was no way before the war and there still isn´t.

[mistyronin 1181]

I'll create a thread: Balkanic countries General...

[aleksadragutin 9]

No it really shouldn´t have, Before the war there were no clear borders of the ethnic groups, look at this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Ethnic_makeup_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_before_and_after_the_war.jpg (196 kB)

As you can see before the war Bosniaks lived all over the country, Serbs lived all oder the country and Croats lived all over the country. It was impossible to draw any borders so that all three somehow get their own state. It still is although it became easier due to the Serb ethnic cleansing. Serbians would live in two little mini states that are only connected by a narrow corridor so they would have to drive through Bosnia if they want to get from one side to the other. Serbia could annex those territories but it would drive a large wedge between the Bosnian and Croatian territories. The Bosniaks would have two little states that are not connected to each other. They couldn´t exist on their own. Croatia could annex the Herzegovina. As you see, there was no way before the war and there still isn´t.

What I ment was that Bosniaks don't exist, only Serbs and Croats, and like 0.1% of actual turkish origin. But that's of topic.

My point was that weather Ukrsine and anyone else think Novorussia exists or not, it is there and looks like it's here to stay. Ukraine made sure of that with it's military actions.

---------- Post added at 00:52 ---------- Previous post was at 00:45 ----------

I'll create a thread: Balkanic countries General...

Someone should really create "politics general", csuse it's really hard to talk about ukraine without going into the wider field of view.

[mistyronin 1181]

My point was that weather Ukrsine and anyone else think Novorussia exists or not, it is there and looks like it's here to stay. Ukraine made sure of that with it's military actions.

Well, Novorussia is an artificial creation, like the Islamic State, but in this case patronized by Russia ( like Transnistria ).

About if it's gonna last, we will see. In any case what keeps it alive is the Russian Gov. support. Without Russia's support, Novorussia would fade in days. So we will also have to see how Russia's economy is gonna evolve.

The pro-Russian forces without the Kremlin support wouldn't last much time against the Ukrainian Army.

Someone should really create "politics general", csuse it's really hard to talk about ukraine without going into the wider field of view.

Could be also interesting, but for what I've seen you and Tonci have some interesting points to share about the Balkans specifically.

[Tonci87 163]

Could be also interesting, but for what I've seen you and Tonci have some interesting points to share about the Balkans specifically.

Nah, a thread with only us two arguing in it wouldn´t be fun. In some ways we are really very stereotypical. We don´t agree on almost anything, except when it comes to Bosnia not really beeing a state, and Bang Croatians and Serbs suddenly have the same opinion :p

[surpher 1]

(RFE) New Competing Claims On Downing Of MH17

Following a Dutch television report that appeared to corroborate the widely-held theory that a pro-Russian separatist-held Buk missile launcher shot down a Malaysian Airlines flight, Moscow is now vigorously promoting new claims that a Ukrainian jet caused flight MH17 to crash.

[Tonci87 163]

But on December 22 -- just hours after the Dutch report -- the Russian "Komsomolskaya Pravda" tabloid published an interview with an alleged anonymous former Ukrainian soldier who claimed that he could provide a firsthand account of the July 17 disaster, which killed all 298 people onboard.

Aha, not telling any names, I see where this is going

According to his account, a pilot in an SU-25 aircraft left his base in Dnipropetrovsk equipped with R-60 air-to-air missiles shortly before the Boeing 777 was shot down. When the "very scared" looking pilot returned there were no missiles left on the twin-engine Soviet-built plane.

Oh boy FPDR

Well at least they finally figured out that the SU can´t climb high enough to use the cannon, so the new story is R-60 missiles did it.

At the time, David Gleave, an aviation and safety researcher at Loughborough University, told RFE/RL that when loaded with missiles the SU-25 could not reach an altitude much higher than 5 kilometers -- MH17 was flying at around 10 kilometers when it was hit.

According to the Russian-backed witness, the plane was able to overcome this hindrance by turning its nose up and firing into the air.

Pavel Felgenhauer, a journalist and military analyst, told the independent Snob.ru that the new Russian claims are "complete garbage."

Felgenhauer said the SU-25 would not have had the capacity to catch up to a Boeing 777 at cruising speed. And because the R-60 is a heat-seeking missile, he said it does not make sense that the nose of MH17 appears to have been hit rather than the engine.

And that is all you need to know to debunk another ridiculous story from the Russian media that no doubt many Russians will believe.....