Ukraine General

[aleksadragutin 9]

Well then it clearly is not hiding behind it.....

No one said that that is literally true.

[oxmox 73]

Since a lot here condemn the downing of civlians with military weapons and demand the perpetrator should be punished, is your moral view about civilian victims by the use of drones and aerial bombings the same ?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Since a lot here condemn the downing of civlians with military weapons and demand the perpetrator should be punished

Because you don't ?

[Tonci87 163]

Since a lot here condemn the downing of civlians with military weapons and demand the perpetrator should be punished, is your moral view about civilian victims by the use of drones and aerial bombings the same ?

Define civilian victim.

[oxmox 73]

I think the question was clear and nobody needs to pussyfoot around.

[x3kj 1247]

I saw another video some time ago that showed the burning of a big converter. Converter have a lot of oil for coolant (which burns happily as you can imagine). After that - blackout, obviously.

For comparison: this is only a substation:

(Not from ukraine)

Edited November 20, 2014 by Fennek

[mistyronin 1181]

Since a lot here condemn the downing of civlians with military weapons and demand the perpetrator should be punished, is your moral view about civilian victims by the use of drones and aerial bombings the same ?

If you mean truly civilians, like the ones on that plane, of course.

I mean I could even understand a civilian dead in a cross-fire, but that's not the case.

For instance, if a USAF drone target and blow up a school bus by mistake, I will condemn it as well. In fact it's against Geneva Conventions, so whoever attack non combatants must be punished.

In fact the pro-Russians at the beginning though they have downed an Ukrainian transport plane.

[oxmox 73]

If you mean truly civilians, like the ones on that plane, of course.

I mean I could even understand a civilian dead in a cross-fire, but that's not the case.

For instance, if a USAF drone target and blow up a school bus by mistake, I will condemn it as well. In fact it's against Geneva Conventions, so whoever attack non combatants must be punished.

In fact the pro-Russians at the beginning though they have downed an Ukrainian transport plane.

Yeah, I have the same opinion.

This was just a curios question in general about moral, some seem to dodge it ;) hehe.

In reality it looks unfortunately sometimes different and legal action is often avoided or the cases secretive.

[Tonci87 163]

Nice one Brits

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/19/british-embassy-ukraine-tweets-guide-russian-tank

[aleksadragutin 9]

If you mean truly civilians, like the ones on that plane, of course.

I mean I could even understand a civilian dead in a cross-fire, but that's not the case.

For instance, if a USAF drone target and blow up a school bus by mistake, I will condemn it as well. In fact it's against Geneva Conventions, so whoever attack non combatants must be punished.

In fact the pro-Russians at the beginning though they have downed an Ukrainian transport plane.

What if those responsible were not aware that they shot down a civilian liner (like they probably weren't)?

[Tonci87 163]

What if those responsible were not aware that they shot down a civilian liner (like they probably weren't)?

Well if you kill somebody with a weapon then it really doesn´t make a huge difference if you wanted to hit somebody else....

[aleksadragutin 9]

Well if you kill somebody with a weapon then it really doesn´t make a huge difference if you wanted to hit somebody else....

Yes it does, in almost every law.

[mistyronin 1181]

What if those responsible were not aware that they shot down a civilian liner (like they probably weren't)?

I already answered before:

For instance, if a USAF drone target and blow up a school bus by mistake, I will condemn it as well. In fact it's against Geneva Conventions, so whoever attack non combatants must be punished.

Anyone who has been a soldier ( myself included ) is taught to NEVER shoot unless you are sure that the target you have in your sight is an enemy ( and only under certain circumstances, hasn't surrendered, etc. ). Because you are responsible of your actions.

For instance, if I were an artillery officer and I order my men to shoot at X position, if there's a school and a lot of kids die it's my responsibility. I should have had recon the area. That's why Geneva Conventions exist.

You can't just shoot to anything you may think could be an enemy or you end killing civilians or your own men. It's just crazy and criminal.

And in this case who shoot down that plane must be taken and judged, from the one who did it to the one who ordered it. Also would have to be studied what role did Russia play in that event, if it provided the AA system or even if were Russian Army personnel the ones who maned it.

Imagine if some US General decides to drop an atomic bomb in Belgrade, and say: "ohhh I thought it was a military target".

Edited November 20, 2014 by MistyRonin

[negah 26]

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/russia-and-former-soviet-union/russia-regrets-us-vote-against-un-anti-nazi-resolution-318000.html

[aleksadragutin 9]

I already answered before:

Anyone who has been a soldier ( myself included ) is taught to NEVER shoot unless you are sure that the target you have in your sight is an enemy ( and only under certain circumstances, hasn't surrendered, etc. ). Because you are responsible of your actions.

For instance, if I were an artillery officer and I order my men to shoot at X position, if there's a school and a lot of kids die it's my responsibility. I should have had recon the area. That's why Geneva Conventions exist.

You can't just shoot to anything you may think could be an enemy or you end killing civilians or your own men. It's just crazy and criminal.

And in this case who shoot down that plane must be taken and judged, from the one who did it to the one who ordered it. Also would have to be studied what role did Russia play in that event, if it provided the AA system or even if were Russian Army personnel the ones who maned it.

Imagine if some US General decides to drop an atomic bomb in Belgrade, and say: "ohhh I thought it was a military target".

Yes, but in the drone case the operators would be aware that they are bombing a school. In the MH17 case they weren't aware that the target was civilian.

[Tonci87 163]

Yes, but in the drone case the operators would be aware that they are bombing a school. In the MH17 case they weren't aware that the target was civilian.

If he thought it was a military target then he wouldn´t be aware that it is a school.... Doesn´t make him less guilty if he kills civilians.

[aleksadragutin 9]

If he thought it was a military target then he wouldn´t be aware that it is a school.... Doesn´t make him less guilty if he kills civilians.

The knowing part has a lot to do with guilt in many if not every justice system.

[Tonci87 163]

The knowing part has a lot to do with guilt in many if not every justice system.

Yes, a justice system will differentiate if you killed someone by tragic accident or if you wanted to kill him. In this case the rebels absolutely wanted to kill that plane and everybody on board. The operators are responsible for every dead person on that flight because they failed to check what they are shooting at. The guys who gave the orders are responsible too.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yes, a justice system will differentiate if you killed someone by tragic accident or if you wanted to kill him. In this case the rebels absolutely wanted to kill that plane and everybody on board. The operators are responsible for every dead person on that flight because they failed to check what they are shooting at. The guys who gave the orders are responsible too.

You can't say that they wanted to down the plane knowing it is civilian. You simply can't make that verdict.

[Tonci87 163]

You can't say that they wanted to down the plane knowing it is civilian. You simply can't make that verdict.

No I´m saying they wanted to down the plane and kill everybody on board. That was their intention.

[beastcat 14]

Separatists defending themselves heroically from a fashist fuel station

http://youtu.be/OyWbmjIkPts

Oh and warning to the russian speaking people with weak nerves: About 80% of the video is pure swearing (No joke).

[negah 26]

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/absage-an-kiew-steinmeier-lehnt-nato-mitgliedschaft-der-ukraine-ab-1.2233769

German foreign minister Steinmeier has spoken out against accession to NATO by Ukraine after ukrainian government has declared the joining to NATO to be a priority task.

Moreover he believes it is unrealistic that Ukraine will join the EU in a forseeable time.

[maturin 12]

Both accurate statements. Which is why Russia started a war for nothing.

[aleksadragutin 9]

No I´m saying they wanted to down the plane and kill everybody on board. That was their intention.

You can't know if that's what they wanted, or even the extent of their knowledge, or even who did it, so your info's a guess?

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:53 ----------

Both accurate statements. Which is why Russia started a war for nothing.

There's no doubt that the reason for Ukraine not joining EU and NATO any time soon is the war.

[mistyronin 1181]

There's no doubt that the reason for Ukraine not joining EU and NATO any time soon is the war.

Well I think it's more a desperate action by Putin, for one side to keep himself in the Gov. And for the other, to punish Ukraine for not following Russia's orders.

It's like that jealous abusive husband that thinks that his wife is his property. When she is feed up enough and says enough, he starts threatening her and destroying her as much as he cans.

For some politicians it feels like if they thought Ukraine was Russia's property, in the same way they look Belarus, etc.

Edited November 23, 2014 by MistyRonin