Ukraine General

[aleksadragutin 9]

Well I think it's more a desperate action by Putin, for one side to keep himself in the Gov. And for the other, to punish Ukraine for not following Russia's orders.

It's like that jealous abusive husbands that when the wife says enough, he starts threatening her and destroying her as much as he cans.

It is too premeditated to be just an act of desperation.

[mistyronin 1181]

It is too premeditated to be just an act of desperation.

Uhm, do you think it was premeditated? To me it feels quite improvised, but could be.

But IMO the final goal was the same. To punish Ukraine for not longer wanting to be Russia's puppet/satellite.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Putin couldn't guess what happened in Ukraine, so yes, that's quite improvised, and IMHO, failed. He only achieved to get chaos in Eastern and Southern Ukraine, as he knows he cannot win the war there.

[Tonci87 163]

You can't know if that's what they wanted, or even the extent of their knowledge, or even who did it, so your info's a guess?

I don´t understand you. If you fire a missile at an aircraft then you surely do it to kill that pane, right?

[aleksadragutin 9]

I don´t understand you. If you fire a missile at an aircraft then you surely do it to kill that pane, right?

You intend to down the plane or render it incapable of harming you (not sure what you mean by "killing the plane"). You do this to protect your airspace, inhibit the enemy or what not. Off course they knew that they were firing a missile, but they probably did not know that it is in fact a civilian plane (that is if the separatists did shoot it down).

[negah 26]

Putin couldn't guess what happened in Ukraine, so yes, that's quite improvised, and IMHO, failed. He only achieved to get chaos in Eastern and Southern Ukraine, as he knows he cannot win the war there.

Maybe he wants another Transnistria, South-Ossetia or Abkhazia? As mentioned earlier Steinmeier said Ukraine cant be a member of NATO. Most likely because a country cannot join NATO as long as it has some unresolved conflict, see Georgia.

That way it does seem that Russia has indeed achieved its goal to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO as I see no option of Eastern Ukraine happily joining main Ukraine again after so much bloodshed.

[Tonci87 163]

You intend to down the plane or render it incapable of harming you (not sure what you mean by "killing the plane"). You do this to protect your airspace, inhibit the enemy or what not. Off course they knew that they were firing a missile, but they probably did not know that it is in fact a civilian plane (that is if the separatists did shoot it down).

That is right, but t doesn´t make them any less guilty.

[aleksadragutin 9]

That is right, but t doesn´t make them any less guilty.

If it means the difference between cold blood murder and a tragic accident, then yes it does make them less guilty.

[Tonci87 163]

If it means the difference between cold blood murder and a tragic accident, then yes it does make them less guilty.

But it isn´t a tragic accident if you plan to kill everybody in that plane in the first place. Would the death of everybody aboard a military transport plane be that much less tragic?

[aleksadragutin 9]

But it isn´t a tragic accident if you plan to kill everybody in that plane in the first place. Would the death of everybody aboard a military transport plane be that much less tragic?

Yes. War is tragic. But still can't say their aim was to kill everyone on board.

[Tonci87 163]

Yes. War is tragic. But still can't say their aim was to kill everyone on board.

FPDR Well then why did they launch a missile at it?

[Heeeere's johnny! 51]

As mentioned earlier Steinmeier said Ukraine cant be a member of NATO. Most likely because a country cannot join NATO as long as it has some unresolved conflict, see Georgia.

Ukraine is caught in the middle. They cannot join the NATO without consequences since Russia is THE energy supplier of Ukraine. But the NATO will do what it can to prevent any russian-ukrainian coalation, because they know how important Ukraine is to Russia, not only politically, but also geographically (Black Sea) and economically as Ukraine is a huge cereal producer and Russia imports a lot from there.

You intend to down the plane or render it incapable of harming you (not sure what you mean by "killing the plane"). You do this to protect your airspace, inhibit the enemy or what not. Off course they knew that they were firing a missile, but they probably did not know that it is in fact a civilian plane (that is if the separatists did shoot it down).

Let's analyse the situation:

A civil war in Ukraine makes everybody tense as nobody knows how this is going to end. So on each NATO and Russian side, the propaganda machinery starts its engines.

In the western media, you hear about Russian Armed Forces participating in the conflict to influence it in their own interest. In the russian media, you hear about western Secret Services heavily (of course, you don't hear that in western main stream media).

Ukraine closed the airspace above Donetzk. Flight MH17 somehow got shot down. (Read the details on Wikipedia)

Now, who does not smell a "false flag attack" here? There can't be anything "better" to gain the support of people than a "bad guy killing innocent civilians". The only problem is, both sides are blaiming each other, but one of them knows their side fired the missile.

And as for the "accident or murder" question: As the missile struck the cockpit rather than the engine, it was much more likely a radar driven missile than a heat seeking missile. So that makes it much less an accident in my eyes as somebody saw on his screen that the target was not a military plane.

Whether or not one or more of these accusations are true is not my point. Fact is, truth is the first victim of war, so as long as this conflict remains, don't believe anything in your local main stream media. Read and think out of the box, make yourself aware of different argumentations of left, right, western, russian, conservative, ... The only way to keep a clear view in a propaganda war is to not believe anything.

[ProfTournesol 956]

But the NATO will do what it can to prevent any russian-ukrainian coalation' date='..[/quote']

Yeah, but you know what ? Ukrainians don't want it too. There is no such thing as "coalition" with Putin's Russia, only submission.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Ukraine is caught in the middle. They cannot join the NATO without consequences since Russia is THE energy supplier of Ukraine. But the NATO will do what it can to prevent any russian-ukrainian coalation' date=' because they know how important Ukraine is to Russia, not only politically, but also geographically (Black Sea) and economically as Ukraine is a huge cereal producer and Russia imports a lot from there.

Let's analyse the situation:

A civil war in Ukraine makes everybody tense as nobody knows how this is going to end. So on each NATO and Russian side, the propaganda machinery starts its engines.

In the western media, you hear about Russian Armed Forces participating in the conflict to influence it in their own interest. In the russian media, you hear about western Secret Services heavily (of course, you don't hear that in western main stream media).

Ukraine closed the airspace above Donetzk. Flight MH17 somehow got shot down. (Read the details on Wikipedia)

Now, who does not smell a "false flag attack" here? There can't be anything "better" to gain the support of people than a "bad guy killing innocent civilians". The only problem is, both sides are blaiming each other, but one of them knows their side fired the missile.

And as for the "accident or murder" question: As the missile struck the cockpit rather than the engine, it was much more likely a radar driven missile than a heat seeking missile. So that makes it much less an accident in my eyes as somebody saw on his screen that the target was not a military plane.

Whether or not one or more of these accusations are true is not my point. Fact is, truth is the first victim of war, so as long as this conflict remains, don't believe anything in your local main stream media. Read and think out of the box, make yourself aware of different argumentations of left, right, western, russian, conservative, ... The only way to keep a clear view in a propaganda war is to not believe anything.

Radar can tell you the size, speed and height of the target, but not whether it is a military or a civilian plane. And then of course there's the skill of the operators which weren't well trained. Again, I blame the airlines most of all.

---------- Post added at 22:39 ---------- Previous post was at 22:38 ----------

FPDR Well then why did they launch a missile at it?

If you had an enemy transport above you, would you fire? It's like asking "why do wars exist".

[Heeeere's johnny! 51]

There is no such thing as "coalition" with Putin's Russia, only submission.

Granted, Russia would of course be the dominant partner, but calling this submission would be like saying european states are submitting to the France-Germany-controlled EU.

Yeah, but you know what ? Ukrainians don't want it too.

The vast majority of germans do not vote for Angela Merkel or her party. 30+% don't even vote. Would anyone ever dare to say "Germans don't want Merkel"?

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yeah, but you know what ? Ukrainians don't want it too. There is no such thing as "coalition" with Putin's Russia, only submission.

You're forgetting that about half of Ukraine would want a deal with Russia. The country it self is divided so you can't say Ukraine would like this or Ukraine would like that, since one half wants one thing and the other half wants something else.

[Tonci87 163]

Ukraine is caught in the middle. They cannot join the NATO without consequences since Russia is THE energy supplier of Ukraine. But the NATO will do what it can to prevent any russian-ukrainian coalation' date=' because they know how important Ukraine is to Russia, not only politically, but also geographically (Black Sea) and economically as Ukraine is a huge cereal producer and Russia imports a lot from there.

Let's analyse the situation:

A civil war in Ukraine makes everybody tense as nobody knows how this is going to end. So on each NATO and Russian side, the propaganda machinery starts its engines.

In the western media, you hear about Russian Armed Forces participating in the conflict to influence it in their own interest. In the russian media, you hear about western Secret Services heavily (of course, you don't hear that in western main stream media).

Ukraine closed the airspace above Donetzk. Flight MH17 somehow got shot down. (Read the details on Wikipedia)

Now, who does not smell a "false flag attack" here? There can't be anything "better" to gain the support of people than a "bad guy killing innocent civilians". The only problem is, both sides are blaiming each other, but one of them knows their side fired the missile.

And as for the "accident or murder" question: As the missile struck the cockpit rather than the engine, it was much more likely a radar driven missile than a heat seeking missile. So that makes it much less an accident in my eyes as somebody saw on his screen that the target was not a military plane.

Whether or not one or more of these accusations are true is not my point. Fact is, truth is the first victim of war, so as long as this conflict remains, don't believe anything in your local main stream media. Read and think out of the box, make yourself aware of different argumentations of left, right, western, russian, conservative, ... The only way to keep a clear view in a propaganda war is to not believe anything.

That false flag stuff is BS. The Rebels themselves happily tweeted that they downed another transport plane that morning, only to quickly delete the tweets once they realized what they actually hit. Add to that intercepted phone calls between rebel commanders and other evidence.

The evidence against them is overwhelming. Just because they had radar doesn´t mean that they knew it was a civilian plane. I really think they didn´t know that. It seems as if they didn´t have the full BUK system at their disposal but only the launch vehicle with it´s secondary small radar and no IFF receiver. If they had the full launch complex then maybe they would have been able to identify the target....

[ProfTournesol 956]

Granted' date=' Russia would of course be the dominant partner, but calling this submission would be like saying european states are submitting to the France-Germany-controlled EU.[/quote']

No, Russia isn't "dominant" with his "partners". Look at the Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan or Chechnya, there's only submission. You cannot compare, even remotely, with what happens in the EU, apart being blind and deaf.

[Tonci87 163]

Russia has, sadly, always been about demanding total submission from its "partners" and exploiting them. It´s a historical and maybe even cultural thing. That is the reason why large chuncks of east Europe have made sure that it doesn´t happen again.

[Heeeere's johnny! 51]

That false flag stuff is BS. The Rebels themselves happily tweeted that they downed another transport plane that morning, only to quickly delete the tweets once they realized what they actually hit. Add to that intercepted phone calls between rebel commanders and other evidence.

The evidence against them is overwhelming. Just because they had radar doesn´t mean that they knew it was a civilian plane. I really think they didn´t know that. It seems as if they didn´t have the full BUK system at their disposal but only the launch vehicle with it´s secondary small radar and no IFF receiver. If they had the full launch complex then maybe they would have been able to identify the target....

See, that's a rock solid standpoint mixed with a lack of knowledge touched by an opinion based interpretation of my statement.

For your standpoint: I know the "tweeting story" and I give you that this is a really hard argument. But if it was that clear, the mainstream media would immediately have jumped on that train and would have driven it a very long time. But obviously, they didn't and it's still unclear which side fired that missile.

For the lack of knowledge: You and I don't know whether the guy fireing the missile did that knowing he was shooting a civilian aircraft or not. Either way, if he's a soldier, he must (and most likely will) obey orders of his commander.

For your interpretation: I did not claim who did the "false flag attack", I just claimed that to my experience with conflicts and propaganda, this really smells like one.

---------- Post added at 22:03 ---------- Previous post was at 22:02 ----------

No, Russia isn't "dominant" with his "partners". Look at the Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan or Chechnya, there's only submission. You cannot compare, even remotely, with what happens in the EU, apart being blind and deaf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS

Is that also Russia demanding total submission of its "partners"?

[aleksadragutin 9]

No, Russia isn't "dominant" with his "partners". Look at the Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan or Chechnya, there's only submission. You cannot compare, even remotely, with what happens in the EU, apart being blind and deaf.

Last time I checked the map Chechnya was Russia.

[Heeeere's johnny! 51]

Last time I checked the map Chechnya was Russia.

There's no need to be nit picky in a general argument. This only causes problems so please try to avoid that for the sake of a constructive discussion.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Heeeere's Johnny!

[aleksadragutin 9]

There's no need to be nit picky in a general argument. This only causes problems so please try to avoid that for the sake of a constructive discussion.

It is important, because Chechnya is part of Russia and thus can't be treated as a "partner". But what are we generally arguing about?

[Heeeere's johnny! 51]

I just ment that ProfTournesol has made a point which was not affected by your statement. But thinking about this for some minutes, I have to admit that I'd probably have done the same thing as you did, so nevermind.

[surpher 1]

(The Moscow Times) Russia's Igor Strelkov: I Am Responsible for War in Eastern Ukraine

"If our unit hadn't crossed the border, everything would have fizzled out — like in [the Ukrainian city of] Kharkiv, like in Odessa," Strelkov, who uses that nom-de-guerre meaning "Shooter" to replace his last name Girkin, was quoted as saying.

(Pressa Today) British "journalist" Graham Phillips received a shrapnel wound near Donetsk

British "journalist" Graham Phillips, who openly supported the pro-Russian militants, injured by shrapnel near the settlement Sands near Donetsk in eastern Ukraine.

(EuroMaidanPress) Russian TV borrows diplomat’s name to discuss “horrors of Euromaidanâ€

Russian propaganda used the name of the former Deputy Foreign Minister of Ukraine Andriy Veselovskyi in a story on the “horrors of Euromaidan†that was featured on the state-owned Russian television channel Russia-1.

Veselovskyi did indeed work at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, but the person appearing on Russian TV is not the Ukrainian diplomat.

Edited November 24, 2014 by surpher