Ukraine General

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yeah, I remember perfectly. Massive peaceful demonstrations of people against the Russian puppet Yanukovich, that he ordered to crush with excessive violence which lead to him fleeing the country and abandoning all responsibilities.

Then the Ukrainian democratically elected parliament voted to remove him from power according to the right the Constitution gave them. Even his own party released a note condemning his acts.

An interim president was elected until the elections.

Russia invaded Crimea militarily and later made a fake referendum that was considered illegal by all the countries in the UN but 11.

Then Russian Kremlin's funded media started a campaign of hatred against the Ukraine interim Gov and non-Russian speaking Ukrainians, calling them Nazis and all kind of weird stuff ( obviously none of them proved ).

Out of the blue groups of organized militia mean leaded by Russians from Moscow took a lot of police stations and town halls in the Donbas basin, suddenly all kinds of Russian military equipment appeared magically in the pro-Russian side, also a lot of "volunteers" from Russia ( a lot of them Russian soldiers "on holidays" ).

So how can that be securing the borders? That is creating havoc, that is pure expansionism, Putin acts as if Ukraine was his property.

As I seem to remember it was caused by protests in Kiev which got real violent real fast, and all because Yanukovich didn't sign some document concerning the EU.

A deal with EU would have lead to NATO, and the reason why Russia doesn't want NATO on it's doorstep is more than obvious. The same logic behind Georgia.

[beastcat 14]

As I seem to remember it was caused by protests in Kiev which got real violent real fast, and all because Yanukovich didn't sign some document concerning the EU.

A deal with EU would have lead to NATO, and the reason why Russia doesn't want NATO on it's doorstep is more than obvious.

Uhm, it became violent after Yanukovich ordered to arrest all the protesters and after much police abuse.

[ProfTournesol 956]

As I seem to remember it was caused by protests in Kiev which got real violent real fast, and all because Yanukovich didn't sign some document concerning the EU.

A deal with EU would have lead to NATO, and the reason why Russia doesn't want NATO on it's doorstep is more than obvious. The same logic behind Georgia.

(1) Signing an agreement with EU doesn't mean in any way joining NATO, even for the worst tabloid

(2) To protect themselves against a theoretic threat, Russians invade a neighbour ?

[aleksadragutin 9]

(1) Signing an agreement with EU doesn't mean in any way joining NATO, even for the worst tabloid

(2) To protect themselves against a theoretic threat, Russians invade a neighbour ?

The NATO deal would have been certain. There's also the real tendencies of Ethnic Russians, and you need to keep in mind that world map today is in no way historical, it was made artificially in the '90s. There's much more to it then purely bullying neighbours.

[ProfTournesol 956]

The NATO deal would have been certain.

Yeah, of course. And Saddam Hussein had a lot of WMD threatening Bush familiy, you know ?

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yeah, of course. And Saddam Hussein had a lot of WMD threatening Bush familiy, you know ?

Really don't see how those 2 are in any way connected. One is a lye made by US intelligence, and the other one is standard protocol.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Really don't see how those 2 are in any way connected. One is a lye made by US intelligence, and the other one is standard protocol.

Both are fancies of the mind. But one thing is sure : before Russia decided to play in Ukraine, Ukrainian people weren't in favor of joining NATO. Now, they have changed their mind !

[Tonci87 163]

Both are fancies of the mind. But one thing is sure : before Russia decided to play in Ukraine, Ukrainian people weren't in favor of joining NATO. Now, they have changed their mind !

Together with anybody else who is close to Russia.....

[oxmox 73]

edit:

I will post about the history later after the discussion settled down a bit :D

Edited November 18, 2014 by oxmox

[havatan19 10]

Yeah, I remember perfectly. Massive peaceful demonstrations of people against the Russian puppet Yanukovich, that he ordered to crush with excessive violence which lead to him fleeing the country and abandoning all responsibilities.

Then the Ukrainian democratically elected parliament voted to remove him from power according to the right the Constitution gave them. Even his own party released a note condemning his acts.

An interim president was elected until the elections.

Russia invaded Crimea militarily and later made a fake referendum that was considered illegal by all the countries in the UN but 11.

Then Russian Kremlin's funded media started a campaign of hatred against the Ukraine interim Gov and non-Russian speaking Ukrainians, calling them Nazis and all kind of weird stuff ( obviously none of them proved ).

Out of the blue groups of organized militia mean leaded by Russians from Moscow took a lot of police stations and town halls in the Donbas basin, suddenly all kinds of Russian military equipment appeared magically in the pro-Russian side, also a lot of "volunteers" from Russia ( a lot of them Russian soldiers "on holidays" ).

So how can that be securing the borders? That is creating havoc, that is pure expansionism, Putin acts as if Ukraine was his property.

"russian puppet" aha. russian puppet exist, but western puppets like saudi king, erdogan, merkel etc doesnt exist, these are all conspiracy theories right ?

and about "peaceful protesters": look how peaceful they were:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2XD5CsHLMw

really peaceful, yeah.

better talk about the protesters in the USA who get shot by police force.

*cough* occupy *cough*

*cough* ferguson *cough*

*cough* turn off your TV *cough*

[surpher 1]

"russian puppet" aha. russian puppet exist, but western puppets like saudi king, erdogan, merkel etc doesnt exist, these are all conspiracy theories right ?

and about "peaceful protesters": look how peaceful they were:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2XD5CsHLMw

really peaceful, yeah.

better talk about the protesters in the USA who get shot by police force.

*cough* occupy *cough*

*cough* ferguson *cough*

*cough* turn off your TV *cough*

You might want to take another look at the second video you posted.

[Tonci87 163]

You might want to take another look at the second video you posted.

Oh the irony :rolleyes:

[oxmox 73]

Both are fancies of the mind. But one thing is sure : before Russia decided to play in Ukraine, Ukrainian people weren't in favor of joining NATO. Now, they have changed their mind !

I did post about this many pages ago alraedy with a lot of press articles, the desire to join NATO did start at least around 2004 or not much later after the "orange revolution"

Edited November 18, 2014 by oxmox

[havatan19 10]

You might want to take another look at the second video you posted.

what about the rest ? and there is far more than 4 videos.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I did post about this many pages ago alraedy with a lot of press articles, the desire to join NATO did start at least around 2004 or not much later after the "orange revolution"

"Desire" means nothing really. BTW, http://www.gallup.com/poll/167927/crisis-ukrainians-likely-nato-threat.aspx

[oxmox 73]

"Desire" means nothing really. BTW, http://www.gallup.com/poll/167927/crisis-ukrainians-likely-nato-threat.aspx

Just adding this little overview again if some have not seen it yet, posted 09.11.2014...( http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?173470-Ukraine-General&p=2815474&viewfull=1#post2815474)

....

Ukraine's Orange Revolution in 2004 swept away a pro-Russian government and replaced it with one that looks to the West for support and now wants to join Nato. Medvedev warns on Nato expansion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7312045.stm

NATO launches ‘Intensified Dialogue’ with Ukraine/2005

http://www.nato.int/docu/update/2005/04-april/e0421b.htm

Ukraine seeks Nato relationship/2005

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/feb/22/usa.politics

Bush backs Ukraine and Georgia for Nato membership

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/01/nato.georgia

Ukraine–NATO relations

Ukraine applied to join the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.

--> Plans for Ukrainian membership to NATO were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 Ukrainian presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych was elected President.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#cite_note-2

Finland & Sweden

They are not considering it just now, there were thoughts already in the past but after the conflict in Georgia a possible NATO membership was even more plausible.

Finland and Sweden revive debates on NATO membership/2008

http://euobserver.com/defence/26664

Neutralitaet Ade - 2008

http://www.welt.de/welt_print/article2377793/Neutralitaet-ade-Finnen-und-Schweden-naehern-sich-der-Nato.html

Edited November 18, 2014 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

"Desire" means nothing really. BTW, http://www.gallup.com/poll/167927/crisis-ukrainians-likely-nato-threat.aspx

Those are retroactive polls, which are not credible. And then again the government often doesn't care about public opinion or orientation (I talked what the situation is like here, where officials promise before elections, but after they just stick with the previous regimes politics).

[ProfTournesol 956]

Talks, yes, certainly, but the only sort of serious demand dates back to 2008, with a lot of oppositions, notably France and Germany. If that's a reason to invade its neighbour, i hope you German forgot about Versailles treaty now :)

---------- Post added at 17:43 ---------- Previous post was at 17:42 ----------

Those are retroactive polls, which are not credible. And then again the government often doesn't care about public opinion or orientation (I talked what the situation is like here, where officials promise before elections, but after they just stick with the previous regimes politics).

Absolutely not retro active. You might take two seconds to read them. And Gallup is extremly reliable.

[oxmox 73]

Talks, yes, certainly, but the only sort of serious demand dates back to 2008, with a lot of oppositions, notably France and Germany. If that's a reason to invade its neighbour, i hope you German forgot about Versailles treaty now :)

Now wait a minute, did you even read these articles. And whats the babble about germans and invasion, I did post this to help you and others with missing informations about the Ukraine and NATO.

Edited November 18, 2014 by oxmox

[ProfTournesol 956]

Now wait a minute, did you even read these articles. And wahts the bubble about germans, I did post this to help you to correct missing informations.

I did. The only serious application dates back to 2008. The Versailles treaty joke was only a friendly taunt.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Absolutely not retro active. You might take two seconds to read them. And Gallup is extremly reliable.

This was compiled after the crisis began, that makes it retro active. But as I said, government wishes don't always coalign with those of its people.

[oxmox 73]

I did. The only serious application dates back to 2008. The Versailles treaty joke was only a friendly taunt.

Well before serious application start you need the politics for it and 2004 with the "orange revolution" was a game changer.

NATO - Partnership with Ukraine a priority,

says Secretary General - 2004

http://www.nato.int/docu/update/2004/04-april/e0419a.htm

...nvm, no worry about your friendly taunt I called it babble anyway :p hehe

Edited November 18, 2014 by oxmox

[blu3sman 11]

[surpher 1]

(Bloomberg Businessweek) Russia Delivers a New Shock to Crimean Business: Forced Nationalization

Business in Crimea has taken a beating since the peninsula’s annexation by Russia. Crimea’s tourism industry collapsed, and companies were cut off from vital suppliers and customers in Ukraine. Now comes the latest blow: nationalization.

From bakeries to shipyards, Crimea’s Kremlin-backed government is moving aggressively to take over businesses that it deems “inefficient,†strategically important, or friendly to the government in Kiev.

[Tonci87 163]

(Bloomberg Businessweek) Russia Delivers a New Shock to Crimean Business: Forced Nationalization

Holy shit. Can they really do that? Welcome to the Soviet Union?