Ukraine General

[negah 26]

Then why didn´t they have a proper independence movement before he crysis?

See that is what strikes me as really odd. Suddenly guys with guns started to pop up everywhere and attacked police stations while Russian propaganda did it´s best to convince everybody that fashist from Kiev are on their way to kill everybody.

If that region had a popular movement that already worked on establishing independence or union with Russia for a few years and was heavily supressed by the Kiev government, then I would consider this uprising to be valid and an act of self determination. I would congratulate them and wish them best of luck.

As it is now however this whole thing is just an insurgency fueled by the big neighbour who wants to annex a region without waging full war for it.

A popular political movement that has exhausted all political options to achieve it´s goal. That is simply missing in this case. And therefore this isn´t an act of self determination.

Actually they had an independence movement right after the fall of the Soviet Union, thats why they were an autonomous republic after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_sovereignty_referendum,_1991

http://www.culturedallroundman.com/2014/03/19/the-crimean-referendums-of-1991-and-1994/

Seeing how it was formerly part of Russia and still had many russians (or russian speakers) or people who have grown up in the Soviet Union living there Im not surprised people wanted back into Russia, who they saw as a successor to their Soviet Union.

I guess merely the post 1990 school graduates in Crimea were more pro ukraine due to a new historical education in schools.

Others were possibly after better wages since those are higher in Russia than in Ukraine, but then again I dont know whether Crimea had different average wages than Ukraine.

The recent events have just made it possible for them to get independent from Ukraine entirely.

Besides If people were against Russia they would rebel just as they did at Maidan where they risked their lives in order to oust Yanukovich.

And since we had no such uprising in Crimea I assume most people were not against secession from Ukraine there.

Edited November 16, 2014 by negah

[Tonci87 163]

And since we had no such uprising in Crimea I assume most people were not against secession from Ukraine there.

Or most people were scared because of all the guys with guns parading through the streets.....

Such a movement (like on the Maidan) needs some time to build up and gain momentum. The Krimea populatin didn´t have that time.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Read about that principle. It's meant to be for historical peoples / nations. You can't become a people / nation in two days.

The only ones in Crimea that could exercise that right, self-determination, are the Tatars, which were ones that were excluded in the Russian faked referendum.

What? The democratically elected parliament voted to overthrow Yanukovich ( after he fleed the country to avoid facing consequences for his criminal acts ) which was their right recognized in the Ukrainian Constitution. Legal.

Does Kosovar exist as nationality?

[negah 26]

Or most people were scared because of all the guys with guns parading through the streets.....

Such a movement (like on the Maidan) needs some time to build up and gain momentum. The Krimea populatin didn´t have that time.

And what would the russian soldiers do if the people would vote against Russia or start protests?

Would they start shooting? It would not only show them as occupants instead of protectors but also prevent any further pro russian movements amongst the crimeans.

There are always people who arent scared by the army. There are many photographs of people trying to stop tanks at various anti-government protests around the world.

No one prevented them from voting against Russia, but our own governments will never accept that some people think not like they want them to think.

Besides why are the demonstrations in Russia all about democracy and human rights and against oppression by evil Putin, and demonstrations in for example Germany are all started by hooligans, communists, nazis, islamists, anti-democrats, you get the idea. At least it is what you get from our media.

Edited November 16, 2014 by negah

[Tonci87 163]

Does Kosovar exist as nationality?

Well you have a point there. Kosovo is mainly inhabited by Albanians, wich has been the case since the Ottoman Empire. So how did the Kosovo end up in Serbia in the first place?

During the first Balkan war 1912 Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro and Greece declared war on the Ottoman Empire. Albania (and the Kosovo was at that time part of Albania) declared it´s independence. However Greece, Serbia and Montenegro sought to conquer it. They had already divided it between themselves. Only the political intervention from Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary prevented the eradication of Albania. However Albania lost half it´s territory in the peace treaty.

My conclusion: The Kosovo is an artificial state created by modern powers to prevent further wars in the region. The nationality Kosovar does not exist. However, considering the population and the history, it would be more fitting as a part of Albania than of Serbia.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Well you have a point there. Kosovo is mainly inhabited by Albanians, wich has been the case since the Ottoman Empire. So how did the Kosovo end up in Serbia in the first place?

During the first Balkan war 1912 Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro and Greece declared war on the Ottoman Empire. Albania (and the Kosovo was at that time part of Albania) declared it´s independence. However Greece, Serbia and Montenegro sought to conquer it. They had already divided it between themselves. Only the political intervention from Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary prevented the eradication of Albania. However Albania lost half it´s territory in the peace treaty.

My conclusion: The Kosovo is an artificial state created by modern powers to prevent further wars in the region. The nationality Kosovar does not exist. However, considering the population and the history, it would be more fitting as a part of Albania than of Serbia.

You're wrong there. Kosovo has been Serbian since medieval times. After the Ottoman conquest, the whole Serbia was under Ottoman rule. In times of the Balkan wars Kosovo was inhabited by Serbian majority. After WW2 Albanians started coming to Kosovo. Finally in '98 the UCK was created to drive out remaining Serb population. Albania didn't lose anything, it gained. Albanians only lived in the south of modern day Albania and they started to spread because they were favored by Ottoman occupying forces.

[spooky lynx 73]

Then why didn´t they have a proper independence movement before he crysis?

SBU.

If that region had a popular movement that already worked on establishing independence or union with Russia for a few years and was heavily supressed by the Kiev government, then I would consider this uprising to be valid and an act of self determination. I would congratulate them and wish them best of luck.

Google 'trains of friendship' that were organized for the first time back in 1992.

[Tonci87 163]

You're wrong there. Kosovo has been Serbian since medieval times. After the Ottoman conquest, the whole Serbia was under Ottoman rule. In times of the Balkan wars Kosovo was inhabited by Serbian majority. After WW2 Albanians started coming to Kosovo. Finally in '98 the UCK was created to drive out remaining Serb population. Albania didn't lose anything, it gained. Albanians only lived in the south of modern day Albania and they started to spread because they were favored by Ottoman occupying forces.

Well history dissagrees with you, maybe you should look it up again. Yes, the whole Serbia was under Ottoman rule. After the Ottoman conquest many Serbs left the Kosovo. 1690 many more followed during "the great exodus" when Christians left in fear of the ottoman revenge after a failed uprising. After that the west Kosovo had a Albanian majority while the Serbs were still dominant on the east Kosovo. That changed 1878 with the proclaimed independence of the Principality of Serbia when many Serbs left the Kosovo to live there, or were forced out by the Ottoman rulers. After that most of the inhabitants of the Kosovo were Albanians.

[oxmox 73]

I know about the blog, how about you show me where he noticed he was wrong, and explain about the sunset reflecting in the windows.

They don't claim that it does.

Well, does it matter if they dont claim it. It was just my opinion about such a type of research.

If you watch the blog you see added additional contributions in form of new content and thoughts regarding the School No63 incident.

Edited November 17, 2014 by oxmox

[surpher 1]

Well, does it matter if they dont claim it. It was just my opinion about such a type of research.

If you watch the blog you see added additional contributions in form of new content and thoughts regarding the School No63 incident.

Again, I know about the blog I post links here and have helped him out with geo-locations occasionally. I'm asking you to point out where "he noticed he was wrong", and explain about the sunset reflecting in the windows.

[oxmox 73]

Again, I know about the blog I post links here and have helped him out with geo-locations occasionally. I'm asking you to point out where "he noticed he was wrong", and explain about the sunset reflecting in the windows.

After he added new content and thoughts about the incident the conclusions were different than before inclusive the direction. Earlier thoughts about the direction of the impact was east and later it was more north, you cant miss it since its dated. About the sunset reflecting, I did read this in an article but cant remember which one. It was about one image and the conclusion about the direction, wheras the red sunset was seen in the window and the conclusion was therefore it highly could not come from the east direction (Makeevka).

I dont want to totally discredit the work, you guys are doing what you can and youself seem one of the major contributor providing additional coordinates. I was wondering already why you go with more details into it.

edit: First I had some questions about the work just out of curiosity. But I think this has no place here, too many details and I did delete it again.

Edited November 17, 2014 by oxmox

[surpher 1]

After he added new content and thoughts about the incident the conclusions were different than before inclusive the direction. Earlier thoughts about the direction of the impact was east and later it was more north, you cant miss it since its dated. About the sunset reflecting, I did read this in an article but cant remember which one. It was about one image and the conclusion about the direction, wheras the red sunset was seen in the window and the conclusion was therefore it highly could not come from the east direction (Makeevka).

I dont want to totally discredit the work, you guys are doing what you can and youself seem one of the major contributor providing additional coordinates. I was wondering already why you go with more details into it.

edit: First I had some questions about the work just out of curiosity. But I think this has no place here, too many details and I did delete it again.

I think you are refering to UPDATE 7-11, hardly an admission of error, he is just sharing someone else's opinion on the direction of fire. His own conclusions remain the same in that the shelling came from an easterly direction.

I do not see how the sunset reflecting in the window has any bearing of on direction of fire, would have to see the article. A sunset reflecting in a window will tell the general direction the window is facing and indicate a rough time of day.

Neither of these points you make justify comments like this:

Later on his blog he did notice that it was wrong, but of course the press did not correct the assumptions. He (you dont know even who is behind the webpage) did not notice that the light of the sunset did reflect in the windows of the building. A total mess but it did fulfill its role for propaganda.

Thanks for replying anyway, some choose to ignore me when challenged.

(HRW) Crimea: Human Rights in Decline

Russian and local authorities have severely curtailed human rights protections in Crimea since Russia began its occupation of the peninsula in February 2014. The report, based on recent, on-the-ground research in Crimea, describes the human rights consequences of the extension of Russian law and policy to Crimea since the occupation. Russia has violated multiple obligations it has as an occupying power under international humanitarian law – in particular in relation to the protection of civilians’ rights, Human Rights Watch found.

(SputnikNews) Putin: Russia Concerned by Threat of Ethnic Cleansing in Ukraine

In an interview with German channel ARD Russian President Vladimir Putin said that Moscow was concerned by the risk of ethnic cleansing in Ukraine, adding that Kiev should stop using force in southeastern regions and create conditions for a political dialogue.

Edited November 17, 2014 by surpher

[oxmox 73]

I think you are refering to UPDATE 7-11, hardly an admission of error, he is just sharing someone else's opinion on the direction of fire. His own conclusions remain the same in that the shelling came from an easterly direction.

I do not see how the sunset reflecting in the window has any bearing of on direction of fire, would have to see the article. A sunset reflecting in a window will tell the general direction the window is facing and indicate a rough time of day.

Neither of these points you make justify comments like this:

Later on his blog he did notice that it was wrong, but of course the press did not correct the assumptions. He (you dont know even who is behind the webpage) did not notice that the light of the sunset did reflect in the windows of the building. A total mess but it did fulfill its role for propaganda.

Thanks for replying anyway, some choose to ignore me when challenged.

Iam refering to media releases i.e. http://www.unian.net/politics/1005883-obstrel-shkolyi-v-donetske-v-rezultate-kotorogo-pogibli-deti-velsya-iz-okkupirovannoy-boevikami-makeevki.html.

His conclusion of the direction changed and is not the same (edit: instead of Makiivka area more possible directions to the NE aswell), which was my point. The press did probably take over the information without any review and this is also a part of the critics. Alright, enough details for me - I dont want to get into investigations.

Neither of these points you make justify comments like this

My opinion stays that people should be critical with sources where people try to solve such incidents just from the desktop of a PC. It contributes and therefore I dont totally discredit it and appreciate such work if it is based on a neutral view, but there is also too much room for misinterpretation and speculations in my eyes due to the limited sources. Since you are contributing to the content of this blog, you have probably a different view but this is alright.

I dont see this as a challenge. We are not only posting news, we are discussing the events here about the conflict in the Ukraine and therefore it is normal that people have all kind of different opinions and informations. So far everyone is friendly with a good tone even there are controversals and this is great.

Edited November 17, 2014 by oxmox

[surpher 1]

His conclusion of the direction changed and is not the same (the interpretation of the direction would change from around °30 area to the direct east to almost 180° degree from NNE to SSE if you would say it is "easterly"), which was my point. The press did probably take over the information without any review and this is also a part of the critics. Alright, enough details for me - I dont want to get into investigations.

I'm unsure where you are getting south southeast from?

[oxmox 73]

I'm unsure where you are getting south southeast from?

ups...

I was in a hurry writing this text, forget about the text in the brackets. I did edit it out. Sorry :803:

Edited November 17, 2014 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

Over 70 trucks for 500.000 tons of "aid".
=
More than 7000 tons of aid per truck.

[havatan19 10]

this poll was made by the german news channel N-TV

Translated:

Question: do you have understanding for putin course?

No 11%

Yes 89%

after sending several lies the public, they still failed to manipulate the people in germany and im glad that more and more people are waking up every day :)

[ProfTournesol 956]

after sending several lies the public, they still failed to manipulate the people in germany and im glad that more and more people are waking up every day :)

What lies may i ask ?

[havatan19 10]

What lies may i ask ?

almost everything what they spread about ukraine (and about afghanistan war and about syria and about libya etc but this is only about ukraine, so).

a little bit in detail: they spread the same bullshit like CNN, BBC that they are the good and USA doesnt make any mistakes and ukraine government (the current gov.) is good and that the ukraine government doesnt kill theyr own people (the media doesnt report about it) and and and.. im glad the internet is there so we can talk to people who are in the crisis area and thanks to the internet these people can report and post about whats really going on directly from the crisis area etc which the media wont report.

Edited November 18, 2014 by havatan19

[ProfTournesol 956]

almost everything what they spread about ukraine (and about afghanistan war and about syria and about libya etc but this is only about ukraine, so).

a little bit in detail: they spread the same bullshit like CNN, BBC that they are the good and USA doesnt make any mistakes and ukraine government (the current gov.) is good and that the ukraine government doesnt kill theyr own people (the media doesnt report about it) and and and.. im glad the internet is there so we can talk to people who are in the crisis area and thanks to the internet these people can report and post about whats really going on directly from the crisis area etc which the media wont report.

You're obviously not very well informed. You may want to read throughout this topic, this may enlighten you.

[Tonci87 163]

You do know that the N24 polls are in no way representative? It costs 0,50€ to call there, nobody does that, except for the weirdos....

And they don´t even tell you how many people called there....

Conclusion: Weirdos like Putin.

[mistyronin 1181]

this poll was made by the german news channel N-TV

http://asset-2.soup.io/asset/7266/1448_2278_390.png

Translated:

Question: do you have understanding for putin course?

No 11%

Yes 89%

after sending several lies the public, they still failed to manipulate the people in germany and im glad that more and more people are waking up every day :)

But that makes sense. How couldn't Germans understand Putin's course? If it's crystal clear.

Putin is following a course that is well known in Germany and in Russia ( USSR ), a ultra-nationalistic expansionism that annex as much territories as it can and blame all problems to external causes, just like Stalin or Hitler did. But thankfully, for now Putin has only did it at little scale.

[aleksadragutin 9]

But that makes sense. How couldn't Germans understand Putin's course? If it's crystal clear.

Putin is following a course that is well known in Germany and in Russia ( USSR ), a ultra-nationalistic expansionism that annex as much territories as it can and blame all problems to external causes, just like Stalin or Hitler did. But thankfully, for now Putin has only did it at little scale.

That is not the course of Putins politics. It's first objective is to secure the borders. Has everyone forgot how this started in the first place?

[ProfTournesol 956]

That is not the course of Putins politics. It's first objective is to secure the borders. Has everyone forgot how this started in the first place?

Don't make me laugh, please, i'm drinking a tea.

[mistyronin 1181]

That is not the course of Putins politics. It's first objective is to secure the borders. Has everyone forgot how this started in the first place?

Yeah, I remember perfectly. Massive peaceful demonstrations of people against the Russian puppet Yanukovich, that he ordered to crush with excessive violence which lead to him fleeing the country and abandoning all responsibilities.

Then the Ukrainian democratically elected parliament voted to remove him from power according to the right the Constitution gave them. Even his own party released a note condemning his acts.

An interim president was elected until the elections.

Russia invaded Crimea militarily and later made a fake referendum that was considered illegal by all the countries in the UN but 11.

Then Russian Kremlin's funded media started a campaign of hatred against the Ukraine interim Gov and non-Russian speaking Ukrainians, calling them Nazis and all kind of weird stuff ( obviously none of them proved ).

Out of the blue groups of organized militia mean leaded by Russians from Moscow took a lot of police stations and town halls in the Donbas basin, suddenly all kinds of Russian military equipment appeared magically in the pro-Russian side, also a lot of "volunteers" from Russia ( a lot of them Russian soldiers "on holidays" ).

So how can that be securing the borders? That is creating havoc, that is pure expansionism, Putin acts as if Ukraine was his property.