Ukraine General

[surpher 1]

you sure it's not the ACSE which was created to be confused with OSCE

More than likely the case, a RT journo who made the same claim was hounded to make a correction yesterday.

PaulaSlier_RT â€Twitter

(IB Times) French-Built Mistral Ships For Russia Could End Up In Canadian Hands

The possibility of a Canadian solution appeared in French media after French President François Hollande began a state visit to Canada this week. While Hollande has yet to make a decision on whether Russia has met the criteria to receive the ships, the presence in the French delegation to Canada of the diplomatic advisor to the chairman of DCNS, the company that manufactures the ships, offers the first indication that France could actively be seeking an alternative buyer.

The idea of Canada buying the ships is not a new one. In May 2014, Canadian Senator Hugh Segal publicly suggested that France should sell to Canada instead of Russia. “Canada or NATO should buy these ships from France, leaving the Russians to await a further slot on the list, which good behavior would assure,†Segal said. “Being silent as French technology is afforded to an adventurist Russian military stance makes no sense at all.â€

Edited November 5, 2014 by surpher

[x3kj 1247]

About the usefulness of the OSCE

Ex-"KSZE" (now OSCE) and Ex-defence minister Willy Wimmer of Germany who said that during his career the negotiation "pacts" like OSCE which are designed to solve European problems peacefully through negotiations, have been intentionally destroyed by the US through the jugoslavian war. And before that they intentionally prevented successfull creation of of a similar "pact"/treaty (I'm lacking the proper word here) for the asian countries by the Kazakhstanian president Nursultan Nasarbajew. This in his opinion lead to the foundation of SCO for example (and observer status of US was rejected).

As soon as such an institution pledges supports one side only it hold no value at all anymore (my opinion). Why would anyone part of it thrust it anymore.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Fennek

[surpher 1]

(BBC) Children die in Donetsk shelling

Two teenagers died and four were wounded when an artillery shell hit a school playing field as they played football in eastern Ukraine.

(Ukraine@War Blog) Rocket that hit School No63 did not come from Peski You might want to avoid watching the videos.

(BBC) Hybrid warfare: The new conflict between East and West

A Russian submarine thought to be lurking in Swedish waters; Nato fighter jets scrambling to intercept Russian bombers; Russian spies, according to Czech intelligence, fanning out across Europe; an Estonian official allegedly snatched and spirited back to Moscow to be accused of spying.

All activity in the shadows or below the radar, accompanied by a barrage of anti-Western messages in the pro-Russian media - what has become known as "hybrid warfare", where propaganda and provocation take centre stage.

Bonfire night in Lewes, UK.

Edited November 6, 2014 by surpher

[aleksadragutin 9]

Ex-"KSZE" (now OSCE) and Ex-defence minister Willy Wimmer of Germany who said that during his career the negotiation "pacts" like OSCE which are designed to solve European problems peacefully through negotiations, have been intentionally destroyed by the US through the jugoslavian war. And before that they intentionally prevented successfull creation of of a similar "pact"/treaty (I'm lacking the proper word here) for the asian countries by the Kazakhstanian president Nursultan Nasarbajew. This in his opinion lead to the foundation of SCO for example (and observer status of US was rejected).

As soon as such an institution pledges supports one side only it hold no value at all anymore (my opinion). Why would anyone part of it thrust it anymore.

According to documentaries about NATO aggression on SRJ in '99 the OSCE observers didn't spot any of the stories perpetuated to justify the aggression, but the western powers (mainly Germany and US) went on the intelligence that they "had" which later turned out to be false, same with Iraq. Then there are the cases of OSCE and UNMIK and UNPROFOR material being used in certain context and manipulated to an extent, by the said powers. This manipulated material then enters the media, spins around, gets quoted by other media, and you have a closed circle (because many different news agencies quote the same source, people think it's true because it is presented by different people).

Edited November 6, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[Tonci87 163]

According to documentaries about NATO aggression on SRJ in '99 the OSCE observers didn't spot any of the stories perpetuated to justify the aggression, but the western powers (mainly Germany and US) went on the intelligence that they "had" which later turned out to be false, same with Iraq. Then there are the cases of OSCE and UNMIK and UNPROFOR material being used in certain context and manipulated to an extent, by the said powers. This manipulated material then enters the media, spins around, gets quoted by other media, and you have a closed circle (because many different news agencies quote the same source, people think it's true because it is presented by different people).

Can you tell me wich false intelligence that was? I´m curious.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Can you tell me wich false intelligence that was? I´m curious.

The German documentary was posted here a while back, It shows how there were no concentration camps for civilians and no house burning in Kosovo (like it was said in Germany). Regarding Iraq, it was the "He has bio weapons, and he's coming to get us.", which was also false. Surprised you don't recall that.

[Dwarden 1124]

I laughed when I seen this tweet with photo of one from those new Russian 'humanitarian' convoys unloaded

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/528655783677136896

afaik there were like 8-10 non-white convoys since two "white" ones

[Tonci87 163]

The German documentary was posted here a while back, It shows how there were no concentration camps for civilians and no house burning in Kosovo (like it was said in Germany). Regarding Iraq, it was the "He has bio weapons, and he's coming to get us.", which was also false. Surprised you don't recall that.

Oh really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War#Yugoslav_war_crimes

The Albanians did some fucked up things too but the Serbians also had a proven track record of (mass) killing civilians. I think the Nato Intervention in Kosovo was the worlds way to repay the Yugoslav government for the killings in Bosnia.

You know there is nothing wrong with admitting that your nation has done something wrong, it isn´t your fault. But if everybody simply ignores the wrongs then history will repeat itself.

The thing in Iraq was made up, I agree with that.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Oh really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War#Yugoslav_war_crimes

The Albanians did some fucked up things too but the Serbians also had a proven track record of (mass) killing civilians. I think the Nato Intervention in Kosovo was the worlds way to repay the Yugoslav government for the killings in Bosnia.

You know there is nothing wrong with admitting that your nation has done something wrong, it isn´t your fault. But if everybody simply ignores the wrongs then history will repeat itself.

The thing in Iraq was made up, I agree with that.

Since I'm not going to start another argument with you, I'm just going to say that you can't school me about my own country from wikipedia. It's ridiculous since I can edit that article later and change it to whatever I like. The story of peaceful Albanians being tortured by monster Serbs is a school example of what the western propaganda, many claim doesn't exist, can do. Please do watch the documentaries.

I am not to proud to admit that Serbs have done something wrong (sure they did) but no more than anyone else. I am saying this because I have friends that are refugees, they're houses burned or possessed by Albanians. Two blocks from my house there are blocks of houses purpose built for the refugees. Across the road from that there are 4 more houses for 16 families that fled. I see those people every day, and then I hear about us expelling poor Albanians and it makes me sick cause there were more Albanians after '98 than before.

Anyway, my point is that western propaganda does very much exist. If your point was otherwise then I don't know what to say to that, except you must be ether blind or unwilling to see this.

Why do you have to go into crimes, when what I posted is true (and you can't deny it through real arguments).

---------- Post added at 19:42 ---------- Previous post was at 19:41 ----------

I laughed when I seen this tweet with photo of one from those new Russian 'humanitarian' convoys unloaded

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/528655783677136896

afaik there were like 8-10 non-white convoys since two "white" ones

We don't really know where and when the picture was taken.

[beastcat 14]

[ProfTournesol 956]

Putin's rewriting Russian history isn't something new.

[x3kj 1247]

In that light - this might be interesting for the discussion.

Not sure if it was already posted, this news was from septembre

http://i.imgur.com/wVeUvlZ.jpg

I don't really understand those people...

http://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/2014/07/23/usa-blasen-zum-rueckzug-putin-ist-nicht-schuld-am-abschuss-von-mh17/ (German News regarding MH17 guilt - infosource: AP & Reuters )

Nor do i understand the media

which was released after the news of the dementi of the intial "it was putin". It says "Stop putin now!" and shows victims of MH17 in the background.

Willy Wimmer mentioned that there where informations about the russian presidents machine which was supposed to be in the same area like MH17 but his machine was 30min delayed (if i was putin i would always not arrive on schedule :j:).

[beastcat 14]

Willy Wimmer mentioned that there where informations about the russian presidents machine which was supposed to be in the same area like MH17 but his machine was 30min delayed (if i was putin i would always not arrive on schedule :j:).

And thats the russian missinformation campaign for you. They invent a number of completely and utterly retarded conspiracy theories that can be debunken by a 8 year olds, throw them out and no matter how often they get destroyed, they are already out there and will get brought up all the time.

No, Putins plane was not supposed to be in the same area. It wasnt even flying in Ukrainian airspace.

Oh yeah, and the "They looked like Ukrainians from space" theory is bullshit as well. You can probably find a good debunking article somewhere, but heres the basics:

-There is no way you can distinguish a uniform on a sattelite photo, hell its even hard to distinguish a btr/tank from a truck.

And how do you want to see if a guy is sober or not from fucking space?! Bottles are tiny and unless they stack them up together into a pile Im not really buying it.

-The Buk was deep inside separatist territory

-All the evidence points towards the separatists, and the theory contradicts pretty much all of it

Edited November 6, 2014 by beastcat

[Tonci87 163]

In that light - this might be interesting for the discussion.

Not sure if it was already posted, this news was from septembre

I don't really understand those people...

http://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/2014/07/23/usa-blasen-zum-rueckzug-putin-ist-nicht-schuld-am-abschuss-von-mh17/ (German News regarding MH17 guilt - infosource: AP & Reuters )

Nor do i understand the media

https://magazin.spiegel.de/EpubDelivery/image/title/SP/2014/31/300

which was released after the news of the dementi of the intial "it was putin". It says "Stop putin now!" and shows victims of MH17 in the background.

Willy Wimmer mentioned that there where informations about the russian presidents machine which was supposed to be in the same area like MH17 but his machine was 30min delayed (if i was putin i would always not arrive on schedule :j:).

How about you start quoting credible news outlets?

Consortiumnews.com?

Deutsche-Wirtschafts-nachrichten.de? (unseriöse Panikmache ist noch das höflichste was man über das Baltt und die Firma die dahintersteckt findet)

And Spiegel ist basically like the BILD newspaper, you expect nothing else from them.

[aleksadragutin 9]

In that light - this might be interesting for the discussion.

Not sure if it was already posted, this news was from septembre

I don't really understand those people...

http://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/2014/07/23/usa-blasen-zum-rueckzug-putin-ist-nicht-schuld-am-abschuss-von-mh17/ (German News regarding MH17 guilt - infosource: AP & Reuters )

Nor do i understand the media

https://magazin.spiegel.de/EpubDelivery/image/title/SP/2014/31/300

which was released after the news of the dementi of the intial "it was putin". It says "Stop putin now!" and shows victims of MH17 in the background.

Willy Wimmer mentioned that there where informations about the russian presidents machine which was supposed to be in the same area like MH17 but his machine was 30min delayed (if i was putin i would always not arrive on schedule :j:).

The warning letter has already been posted a couple of times, but it makes the situation a bit less fogy.

[surpher 1]

We don't really know where and when the picture was taken.

Yes, most likely somewhere in Pereval's'k, Luhans'ka oblast on the 31st Oct.

Look at around 8:30

Image source

[aleksadragutin 9]

Yes, most likely somewhere in Pereval's'k, Luhans'ka oblast on the 31st Oct.

Look at around 8:30

Image source

Certainly not aid quality material.

[x3kj 1247]

How about you start quoting credible news outlets?

How about you start naming what credible news outlets are? Which media outlet is not biased? If you know the answer, how do you know it's not biased?

All media outlets are owned by somebody. Media is a preselection of news someone else thought you should know. What this somebody thinks is important/not important you will never know.

If you need an explanation watch

. That section is a rational explanation, free of any political view/bias. Sorry yes it's german.

[oxmox 73]

How about you start naming what credible news outlets are? Which media outlet is not biased? If you know the answer, how do you know it's not biased?

All media outlets are owned by somebody. Media is a preselection of news someone else thought you should know. What this somebody thinks is important/not important you will never know.

If you need an explanation watch

. That section is a rational explanation, free of any political view/bias. Sorry yes it's german.

I recommand in general to read especially about history, when you know more about the past you understand better the present. When it comes to international politics we had a very prestigious and critical Journalist like Prof. Dr. Peter Scholl Latour. A person who was not much dependant on his career and therefore not too much political correct and he was talking about toppics a lot more openly, one of the view persons who visited all countries in the world as a Journalist with contacts to people in authority and not just writing from his desk. He died unfortunately this year but was an amazing person with a huge knowledge.

There are two books which I recommand when it comes to Ukraine/Russia: especially the book "Russland im Zangengriff: Putins Imperium zwischen Nato, China und Islam" and his last book which is currently a best seller "Der Fluch der bösen Tat". But all of his books are great and were often best sellers from Vietnam to Africa, USA, Middle East...whatever.

There are amazing books about international geostrategy like the one from Zbigniew Brzeziński which was or still is one of the most influental geopolitcal advisor for the United States. One of the most interesting and eye-opening book I did read about geopolitics/global dominance is the following: " The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives" in german ( Die einzige Weltmacht: Amerikas Strategie der Vorherrschaft). With a long prologue from Hans-Dietrich Genscher in the german version. Most experts and politicians did probably read this book.

There is enough stuff out there from prestigious sources, more than I did list here. Only some small examples.

Iam not into these "alternative media sources" for example: Ken Jebsen, Christoph Hörstel, other alternative TV channels or news sources, Kopp Verlag and so on...they are often too much into conspiracy theories. It is a market itself aswell and they know how to run it for their clientel.

Edited November 7, 2014 by oxmox

[x3kj 1247]

Furthermore i'd want to ask you, tonci why do you criticise me for bringing "noncredible news" sources?

If you check out the twitter account from the link that dwarden posted

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/528655783677136896

It's completely obvious that the author of that twitter account absolutely hates russia/putin and shows pictures which can't be identified without doubt as to what he claims them to be. How do you expect non-biased reports from such persons. (Needless to mention but obviously those kind of persons exist on both sides - before you criticise me of accusing ukraine social media parts only :rolleyes:)

[oxmox 73]

How about you start quoting credible news outlets?

Consortiumnews.com?

Deutsche-Wirtschafts-nachrichten.de? (unseriöse Panikmache ist noch das höflichste was man über das Baltt und die Firma die dahintersteckt findet)

And Spiegel ist basically like the BILD newspaper, you expect nothing else from them.

You could be right about the first two sources.

But, the "Spiegel" is the main leading press magazine in Germany, a prestigous magazine and is not compareable with the yellow press like the BILD newspaper.

-There is no way you can distinguish a uniform on a satellite photo, hell its even hard to distinguish a btr/tank from a truck.

And how do you want to see if a guy is sober or not from fucking space?! Bottles are tiny and unless they stack them up together into a pile Im not really buying it.

Iam not going into the discussion about the MH17 incident, but non public/military sattelites are probably capable of zooming in very close.

Yeah, I dont think that any satellite will see the different types of uniforms. I saw an aerial image with a 25mm resolution and you could see the different clothes of people. http://aerometrex.com.au/blog/?p=217

"If you've used Google Earth, you know that free satellite imagery is already pretty good. Google's systems are capable of incredible resolution — down to less than a meter. Some onlookers report that the real figure is actually about half a meter, and is limited only by government restrictions that prevent the image quality from getting too good."

Google earth offers areas with a 15cm/6 inch resolution - you can read for example the ad writings on the Luxor Hotel roof in Las Vegas..thats pretty cool. It is allegedly the maximum possible resolution of the satellite.

http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/archives/2006/03/google_releases.html

By the way, google will offer a lot higher resolutions soon "New satellite will quadruple quality of Google Maps". This will be fun :p. With the current resolution you can see already the different colors of roof stones from houses. Curious what you can see after the update.

Companies like DigitalGlobe were limited to capturing a 50cm square of ground space per pixel, but are now free to go as low as 25cm, giving four times the number of pixels for a given photograph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/11029256/New-satellite-will-quadruple-quality-of-Google-Maps.html

Edited November 7, 2014 by oxmox

[Dwarden 1124]

do you have list of content in those dozen convoys ?

I bet you don't

so, guess all the advanced weaponry, new ammo and modern equipment is delivered by fedex ...

[mistyronin 1181]

Iam not going into the discussion about the MH17 incident, but non public/military sattelites are probably capable of zooming in very close.

"If you've used Google Earth, you know that free satellite imagery is already pretty good. Google's systems are capable of incredible resolution — down to less than a meter. Some onlookers report that the real figure is actually about half a meter, and is limited only by government restrictions that prevent the image quality from getting too good."

The only problem is that they usually take 24h to get to an specific position, that's why the US still has U-2 spy planes and drones.

People exaggerate satellites capabilities.

[maturin 12]

How about you start naming what credible news outlets are? Which media outlet is not biased? If you know the answer, how do you know it's not biased?

There's a very clear difference between bias and simply making up demonstrably false bullshit. One is a LIE, the other is just fact with a spin on it. It's really very simple.

And in the case of Ukraine coverage, low-quality corporate Western media do the former, while low-quality Kremlin-controlled media do the latter.

[x3kj 1247]

And in the case of Ukraine coverage, low-quality corporate Western media do the former, while low-quality Kremlin-controlled media do the latter.

Question: What does the good quality/ non corporate Western media write? And what does the good quality russian media write? How do you know it's good quality? When it fits your view?

Before there was any investigation in MH17 US claimed to know it was the russian because of "clear evidence". After questions from journalists they say their sources where social media...

That's not low quality corporate Western media. That's US foreign ministry. Apparently their secret services are not reliable enough? Their Awacs airplanes they have in the area and other surveilance tech did somehow miss this incident entirely? Publically blaming someone else in such a tense situation with "evidence" that wouldnt stand a single chance in an UN investigation and threatening with further sanctions is gross fault.

Interesting ? 1) US military detected the missile launch. And in that instance they hadn't stationed units in ukraine for maneuvers as far as i can tell 2) As result, testing of BUK and S-300 was prohibited in Ukraine for 7 years. So ukraine claiming they dont have BUK sounds a bit controversial for me. And it's not the first time Ukraine officials lied in this conflict. I also havent found any news of US giving the dutch investigation team access to radar data yet.

Translated Speech of german politician gysi, left wing. (a bit older - from march) from

. Still pretty recent when it comes to the backgrounds of this conflict. Edited November 7, 2014 by Fennek