Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

I'm trying to see things through the eyes of ordinary peaceful Donetsk/Lugansk citizens.

So if I or any other forum members were living in that area, exactly what are the things the Ukraine Govt have done over the past few years to make us unhappy?

It's not over the past years, they were happy until the fall of Yanukovich.

Everything began this year after pro-Russian ( bribed ) Yanukovich ordered the "special-police" Berkut ( formed by Russian ethnics ) to use weapons to clear the demonstrators in Maidan Square, Kiev.

After a strong international reaction Yanukovich fleed to his patron Russia. Without his leader, the Berkut escaped to the Eastern part of the country to avoid popular retaliation for their acts.

The parliament ( that had been elected in 2010 ), voted for a joint provisional government with members of mostly all parties. The new provisional gov. voted to go back to the situation before Yanukovich, deleting all the changes in the laws he made. They also disbanded the Berkut.

Putin seeing all the chaos in Kiev, decided to take advantage of the situation and ordered the Russian Army to invade Crimea, creating a lot of propaganda against the Kiev Gov. saying that they were Nazis payed by the "West".

As a excuse Putin said that during that the Crimean Peninsula was Russian because during the Imperial period the Czars invaded it, trying to russify their native citizens and later during the Soviet Union make them starve and the remaining sent to the Gulag. So basically the Russian predominance there is due to ethnic genocide that the Russian authorities committed during the Imperial and Soviet times.

Seeing the Ukraine Gov. and Army unable to do anything about the Russian invasion, in Donetsk some Russian Speaking Ukrainians took weapons and started to assault buildings ( probably were the former Berkut, at least the leaders ), town halls, police stations, etc. robbing all the weapons they could, kidnapping and murdering the legal officers ( mayors, and others ), etc.

And you got the party started.

Edited June 15, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

I'm trying to see things through the eyes of ordinary peaceful Donetsk/Lugansk citizens.

So if I or any other forum members were living in that area, exactly what are the things the Ukraine Govt have done over the past few years to make us unhappy?

1) Rejection of demands for federalisation and making Russian language as second state one

2) Will to sign treaty with EU which will cause death of most part of Donbass industry

3) Worsening of relation with Russia, country where many Ukrainian citizens have relatives and where largest export market for Ukrainian goods is situated

4) Support of far right Ukrainian nationalistic parties and movements

Many times UA nationalists and officials said "You want to have Russian language? GTFO to Russia".

[vilas 477]

Support of far right Ukrainian nationalistic parties and movements

Many times UA nationalists and officials said "You want to have Russian language? GTFO to Russia".

what about Russian nationalists ?

in Ukraine far right is how much percent ? 7% ? 5? how much? how much Right Sector has votes ? some people say that 3%

let's compare it to Russia :

Zhyrinovsky - this person says that Poland, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania should not exist, that Alaska should be taken from USA and Ukrainians should be deported to moon if i remember correctly - he as 12% and he is vice-chairman of Russian parliament,

communists - praising USSR, Stalin , Stalin is second biggest criminal in history of mankind along with Hitler - they have over 20%

Putin is nationalist too,

nice comparision to say about Ukraine and Russia, and what say Russian nationalists when someone wants his language to be in one region of Russia ?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

I'm trying to see things through the eyes of ordinary peaceful Donetsk/Lugansk citizens.

So if I or any other forum members were living in that area, exactly what are the things the Ukraine Govt have done over the past few years to make us unhappy?

as MistyRonin says + problem is with Russian nationalistic mentality,

they call other fascists, nationalists, while the biggest problem with nationalism (thinking superior of one own nation and thinking that you are better than others because of being your nationality only ) is their leading mechanism (you can see it when for example Poland wanted anti-rocket system from USA, than Russia protested cause they ... say it is danger and threat if Poland can defend itself, the same time Russians want Poland to take care and leave WW2 communist criminals monuments on Polish territory, monuments of WW2 commies which murdered patriotic Poles after WW2 or in ally with Hitler 1939-1941, and when we want to delete WW2 criminals monuments they say about ruso-phobia)

issue is that Russia bahaves like USSR, they try to keep control on their neigbors and set their society in state of paranoia saying that small countries which have 5% of Russian military potential are threats to Russia ,

Russians love to be overestimated due to Putin nationalism

to ask about Russians Pooroldspike you must know 2 Russian proverbs:

- u sylnovo vsegda bessylny vynovat

- kura ne ptyca Polsha ne zagranyca

- for strong weaker is always guilty

- chicken is not bird, Poland is not abroad

Edited June 15, 2014 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

Well the vehicle was intending to shoot at a NG checkpoint and hit some houses halfway, right? That alone tells me that the vehiccle was operated by separatists. Throw in the facts that it missed horribly, and that they somehow managed to set it on fire during the launch this really points to the theory that the vehicle was operated by people who didn´t really know how to use it. Since government soldiers would have at least managed not to set themselves on fire, this really points to the theory that it was used by rebels. Where they got it from is secondary. Maybe it is one of those that they claimed to have captured?

AFAIK there were no NG checkpoint at that area. Moreover rebels aren't so dumb to use MLRS for destroying ordinary checkpoint, they prefer to use mortars, ATGMs and RPGs for it (it's just cheaper than spending heavy rockets at such small target). As for govt soldiers, let me remind you that they already lost at least one SPG "Msta" (one crew member died, others wounded) and five tanks that were set on fire during early days of deployment to Eastern regions (when there were no any armed rebels at Donbass). Also one Su-24 was lost during mistake of pilot at landing and one Grad launcher drowned from bridge. Current regime brings totally unprepared personell to army and various armed batallions. So it's not surprise that some of them make fatal mistakes while operating complicated weapon systems.

Edit: Ukrainian minister of foreign affairs at the protest near Russian embassy

Watch at 0:35 - he says "Putin - motherf**ker". True, Ukraine is Yurrop FPDR That's just lower than Somalia.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[vilas 477]

"Putin - motherf**ker"

half of the globe thinks the same, a lot of people in globe call him Putler (from Hitler)

many people who do not like Russia in fact not dislike usual men, but Putin gov. foreign politics (the same what is with USA, people do not dislike usual people but CIA and foreign politics)

[spooky lynx 73]

Half of the globe may think whatever they want. But such words from foreign affairs minister of European country are unacceptable. Even freaks like Chavez (R.I.P.), Kim jong-some-thing and Ahmadinizhad were more polite.

Edit: Breaking news:)

Some sources claim that shot down Il-76 is... fake. Fake that had been made to excuse the attack on Russian embassy.

http://ivanoctober.livejournal.com/343182.html

http://mir-mag.livejournal.com/35836.html

Here is a couple of articles (in Russian).

In brief why it can be fake:

- no corpses, NGs could not manage to get all of them at night in hostile area before rebels arrived

- the accident was admitted very quickly by both UA officials and media (despite earlier they acted countrary)

- two engines lying instead of four

- small area of crash site, Il-76 is way more bigger

- some rubber parts (wheels of vehicles carried inside) and clothes pieces remain almost clean and untouched by fire despite fire been very huge, grass and land isn't burned very much too

-civil officials named all the victims very quickly despite the fact that in such cases it's impossible at least because of gathering and getting data from MoD

Edited June 15, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[Tonci87 163]

Half of the globe may think whatever they want. But such words from foreign affairs minister of European country are unacceptable. Even freaks like Chavez (R.I.P.), Kim jong-some-thing and Ahmadinizhad were more polite.

Edit: Breaking news:)

Some sources claim that shot down Il-76 is... fake. Fake that had been made to excuse the attack on Russian embassy.

http://ivanoctober.livejournal.com/343182.html

http://mir-mag.livejournal.com/35836.html

Here is a couple of articles (in Russian).

In brief why it can be fake:

- no corpses, NGs could not manage to get all of them at night in hostile area before rebels arrived

- the accident was admitted very quickly by both UA officials and media (despite earlier they acted countrary)

- two engines lying instead of four

- small area of crash site, Il-76 is way more bigger

- some rubber parts (wheels of vehicles carried inside) and clothes pieces remain almost clean and untouched by fire despite fire been very huge, grass and land isn't burned very much too

-civil officials named all the victims very quickly despite the fact that in such cases it's impossible at least because of gathering and getting data from MoD

OK this is getting ridiculous. Why on earth should the Ukraine fake a plane crash where more than 40 people lost their lives. This is just cynical and disrespectfull.....

Also I hope you realize that Putin is doing to Russia what Bush did to the USA. Nobody likes Russians because of him.

[mistyronin 1181]

For one side the Jet fuel burn at temperatures that practically melt the corpses. The parts could have been send away during the explosion itself. Etc.

Anyway, why you even doubt that? Ukraine Gov. has recognize it. The Pro-Russian insurgent leadership has recognize it. Even the Russian Gov. has recognize it.

Even one of the main Russia propaganda tools like RT recognize it:49 Ukrainian troops killed as transport plane downed in Lugansk

Did they agree to lie together to give an excuse for an assault to the Russian Embassy?

[spooky lynx 73]

OK this is getting ridiculous. Why on earth should the Ukraine fake a plane crash where more than 40 people lost their lives. This is just cynical and disrespectfull.....

Why? For the same reasons it orders its armed forces to bomb civilians - provoke Russia to use force and step into this conflict.

For one side the Jet fuel burn at temperatures that practically melt the corpses. The parts could have been send away during the explosion itself. Etc.

Anyway, why you even doubt that? Ukraine Gov. has recognize it. The Pro-Russian insurgent leadership has recognize it. Even the Russian Gov. has recognize it.

Nope. Some parts remain even after burning. Note that plane was at the landing process and fuel level was low. Watch the video about Yak-42 burned in Sukhumi airport while taking off in 1993 (I won't post it here because of rules violation) - its tanks were full but despite this all burned corpses remained at the crash site. And NGs are not so brave and professional warriors to manage to bring all the bodies from crash site to safe place at night in hostile area.

Why do I doubt? UA govt never recognized its losses such quickly. Just look at previous case with An-30. At first it was some An-24 with 'humanitarian aid' then An-26 and only then they admitted it was recon plane. They hadn't admitted capture of three tanks and lied about some Russian T-72s entered through the border. But in the case of Il-76 they magically admitted the lose of plane (and exactly from the hostile fire!) and heavy casualties at 5:00 AM! Just in a couple of hours after crash. Things don't change so quickly.

[mistyronin 1181]

Why do I doubt? UA govt never recognized its losses such quickly. Just look at previous case with An-30. At first it was some An-24 with 'humanitarian aid' then An-26 and only then they admitted it was recon plane. They hadn't admitted capture of three tanks and lied about some Russian T-72s entered through the border. But in the case of Il-76 they magically admitted the lose of plane (and exactly from the hostile fire!) and heavy casualties at 5:00 AM! Just in a couple of hours after crash. Things don't change so quickly.

Don't compare an air accident were the pilot tried to do its best to save the people, with a plane shoot down.

The Ukraine's Gov. never talked about three T-72, but of three tanks that entered from the Russian border. It's still unclear where are they from, according to the insurgents are from a warehouse. They are T64, but they don't have marks nor the painting of the Ukrainian Army ( having in mind that Russia has some in storage... ).

On the other hand is not the same to find out how many casualties you have in a firefight, where amid the chaos is difficult to see who is dead and where, than a plane crash where it's pretty simple, you just need to check the list of cargo.

Again all the sides, even the propaganda media from Russia recognize it.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Why? For the same reasons it orders its armed forces to bomb civilians - provoke Russia to use force and step into this conflict..

What for ?

[spooky lynx 73]

Don't compare an air accident were the pilot tried to do its best to save the people, with a plane shoot down.

The Ukraine's Gov. never talked about three T-72, but of three tanks that entered from the Russian border. It's still unclear where are they from, according to the insurgents are from a warehouse. They are T64, but they don't have marks nor the painting of the Ukrainian Army ( having in mind that Russia has some in storage... ).

On the other hand is not the same to find out how many casualties you have in a firefight, where amid the chaos is difficult to see who is dead and where, than a plane crash where it's pretty simple, you just need to check the list of cargo.

Again all the sides, even the propaganda media from Russia recognize it.

It was not air accident but plain shooting down via MANPADS. At first UA officials denied that it was recon plane used for FAC duties (not the best role for An-30 BTW). Then, Avakov (MVD minister) wrote about Russian T-72 tanks. Minister. So I may say UA govt told about Russian T-72s. As for markings and paintings - many of vehicles both in UA or Russian army don't have national markings. Only numbers or tactical signs. Even if they had, markings can be easily oversprayed. Like on those BMDs captured in the early days of the war.

And again, UA officials aren't those who admit military losses so quickly and easily. Don't you think it is strange that just after a couple of hours official MoD site hosted news with exact reasons of plain crash? They hadn't been so quick with other planes, why?

What for ?

Intervention is wet dream of current regime - all those terrible economic problems caused by new authorities may be advocated by it and all those totally incompetent politicians will get ability to take off all responsibility for faults and state problems. It's much easier to blame 'bloody Moskali occupants' from cosy villa somewhere in Western Europe than struggle with debts and economic crisis in Kiev.

[krycek 349]

Yup we're officially in it:Cold War Episode 2

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/15/us-nato-ukraine-russia-idUSKBN0EQ0G020140615

Maybe this time we won't have a second Cuban Missile Crisis and let's hope russians upgraded their pcs to avoid another 1983.It seems(some) idiots at the top on both sides really want to play this "let's see how much we can piss the other side" game.

Ukrainians sure like to hit the bear with the stick lately too,I'm not sure their new leaders realize they just give more excuses to psycho Putin to play a bit of real life Arma with them.Not saying they should bow down,but attacking the russian embassy and their new foreign minister caught swearing at Putin doesn't look very good for them.

[Tonci87 163]

Why? For the same reasons it orders its armed forces to bomb civilians - provoke Russia to use force and step into this conflict.

This is really the only possible reaction for that comment considering how little sense it makes, sorry -> FPDR

Do you realize to what lenghts the Ukraine went to NOT get Russia involved in this? They are very well aware that they couldn´t stop a Russian invasion no matter what.

[spooky lynx 73]

This is really the only possible reaction for that comment considering how little sense it makes, sorry -> FPDR

Do you realize to what lenghts the Ukraine went to NOT get Russia involved in this? They are very well aware that they couldn´t stop a Russian invasion no matter what.

Sure, flirting with EU, NATO and domestic nazis, toppling president who is more or less neutral to Russia really shows Ukrainian will not to get Russia involved. And using army and semi-private armed 'batallions' against unarmed protesters, arming and legalizing far-right groups as 'national guard', shameless use of brutal force against its own citizens that are opposite to maidanuts shows it too. Burning people alive and murdering them, attacking those who wanted to celebrate Victory day in Mariupol shows it too.

[mistyronin 1181]

Sure, flirting with EU, NATO and domestic nazis, toppling president who is more or less neutral to Russia really shows Ukrainian will not to get Russia involved. And using army and semi-private armed 'batallions' against unarmed protesters, arming and legalizing far-right groups as 'national guard', shameless use of brutal force against its own citizens that are opposite to maidanuts shows it too.

The people toppled Yanukovich because he was basically a Russian bribed puppet since he became president and tried to become a dictatorship ( that's why the first thing the parliament did was remove all the Yanukovich changes to the laws and Constitution ):

( The Guardian from 2010 ) Viktor Yanukovych promises Ukraine will embrace Russia

Speaking after a meeting with his counterpart, Dmitry Medvedev, Yanukovych said he would perform a sharp U-turn on the polices pursued by his predecessor, Viktor Yushchenko, whose pro-west and pro-Nato stance infuriated the Kremlin.

Welcoming him warmly, Medvedev said Yanukovych's election victory meant that the "brotherly ties" between Ukraine and Russia could now be restored. He added that the venomous stand-off between Moscow and Kiev following the 2004 Orange Revolution – a "dark streak", as Medvedev put it – was now over.

The National Guard was formed because the Ukrainian Army was unable to deal with the armed pro-Russian insurgents, not otherwise... And have only fought against the insurgents. BTW it was formed with anyone who wanted to volunteer ( from the extreme right, extreme left, center, etc. ).

( EuroNews ) New Ukrainian National Guard starts training

“In coordination with police the National Guard will ensure public safety and border security, and stop terrorism. Moreover, the National Guard will perform tasks typical for military forces,†said the parliament’s Speaker and Acting President Oleksandr Turchinov.

The burning episode in Odessa we have already told you that the fire started by the pro-Russian's roof molotov cocktails ( it could be seen at that moment LIVE through streaming ).

Edited June 15, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

Sure, flirting with EU, NATO and domestic nazis, toppling president who is more or less neutral to Russia really shows Ukrainian will not to get Russia involved. And using army and semi-private armed 'batallions' against unarmed protesters, arming and legalizing far-right groups as 'national guard', shameless use of brutal force against its own citizens that are opposite to maidanuts shows it too. Burning people alive and murdering them, attacking those who wanted to celebrate Victory day in Mariupol shows it too.

More or less neutral? He was a Russian puppet with the ambition to get as powerfull and rich as he possibly could.

I still have to see footage where the military acted against unarmed peacefull protesters.

The national guard was build in response to the Russian invasion of Krimea. It was virtually the only possibility to quickly form a military. Contrary to what you TV tries to make you believe the national guard is made up of all kinds of people, not just fashists.

May I remind you again that the folks themselves started the fire in that building? Maybe they would still be alive if they didn´t try to burn the protesters around the building with molotovs.

No peacefull and unarmed crowds were attacked in Mariupol on victory day.

[surpher 1]

(The Telegraph) After months of threats, Russia uses gas weapon against Ukraine

After daily threats and brinkmanship, the gas weapon is finally being used. Russia’s decision to stop supplying Ukraine with gas on Monday marks the culmination of months of pressure.

(The Guardian) Russia tables new UN resolution for ceasefire and talks in Ukraine

Ambassador warns of humanitarian crisis in country's east, but faces struggle to win support from sceptical opponents

Current situation.

[negah 26]

(The Telegraph) After months of threats, Russia uses gas weapon against Ukraine

If you or me don't pay for our internet or electricity or yes, even gas, our supplier will cut it off.

If you tell your provider that you don't want to pay 40 €/month for your internet, like everyone else, but only 20€, he will most likely laugh into your face.

Of course in this case it is something completely different. Its the good Ukraine, which can use gas without paying, and its the bad Russia that sees it otherwise.

Oh and now we have the problem, that Ukraine will steal the gas supplied to Europe.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Europe can find other suppliers. Russia will have hard time to find other clients.

[mistyronin 1181]

If you or me don't pay for our internet or electricity or yes, even gas, our supplier will cut it off.

If you tell your provider that you don't want to pay 40 €/month for your internet, like everyone else, but only 20€, he will most likely laugh into your face.

That's +/- correct in a consumer level ( I have sometimes got better deals through negotiation with the commercials ), in a corporate & national level, it's not like that; it's all based in negotiation.

Specially having in mind that the electric distributor will never assault your house, and occupy one of the rooms stealing everything you got there.

[negah 26]

Europe can find other suppliers. Russia will have hard time to find other clients.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-23/lng-sellers-to-chase-japan-south-korea-on-china-russia-gas-deal.html

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/19/russia-northkorea-debt-idUKL6N0NB04L20140419

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-25/first-russia-locks-china-holy-grail-gas-deal-now-rosneft-prepares-mega-deal-india

As for Europe, while German politicians talk nonsense about fracking-gas or more gas from Norway, German economists say there is no alternative for Russian gas at least for now. Dont know about other countries.

http://www.dw.de/noch-keine-alternative-zu-gas-aus-russland/a-17561547

That's +/- correct in a consumer level ( I have sometimes got better deals through negotiation with the commercials ), in a corporate & national level, it's not like that; it's all based in negotiation.

Still if you dont pay the price after a couple of months, three moved deadlines and countless failed negotiations, Russians had to stop giving them gas for free. Otherwise they would look like someone who can only threaten, but is afraid to fullfill those threats. No one would take them serious on corporate/national level anymore. (Remember Obama and his "Red Line" in Syria?)

[Dwarden 1125]

I remember like 15 years ago our government wanted to build 2 new pipelines

1. to Turkey, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabucco_pipeline , still not ready, maybe 2018

which would then lead to rest of Middle East countries and maybe Georgia

2. over the Black Sea into Georgia directly (similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Stream but that one was into Russia again)

which would allow connection on the Caspian region oil/gas field

for Ukraine is tragic these routes aren't yet done, for EU it's troublesome

[vilas 477]

since 20 years Polish right-wing say about things that now happens, but noone listened to them, Europe should have diversification of enegry long ago, but German, French leaders (strongest countries in EU along with UK) were and are so naive believing that ghosts of USSR imperialism are past, they deny patiotism and try to kill patriotic feelings, in fact nationalism is power that gave Putin advantage, in fact patriotism and economic egoism gave Russia wealth, being opposite (what EU promotes) gives only weakness and fails ,

if western EU was not that dumb like it was (EU parliament, French, German leaders) now Europe would have gas and other pipelines that would give us opportunity to avoid Russia and than we could hit Russia with economical fist very strong,

instead of this ex councillor Shroeder now is CEO in gas company building Russian pipeline etc.

western EU politicians make a lot of mistakes , that they think they can be friend with Russia over Polish head and not listen to Poland - country which has few centuries history of wars with Russia and knows Russia the best in Europe,

the worst in EU is that Germans and French sold Russians all military hightech and made Russian army modern

[mistyronin 1181]

since 20 years Polish right-wing say about things that now happens, but noone listened to them, Europe should have diversification of enegry long ago, but German, French leaders (strongest countries in EU along with UK) were and are so naive believing that ghosts of USSR imperialism are past

We have to remember that the EU is a young naive project ( probably now "teenager" ). Right now it's still not clear in what direction the EU is aiming ( a few years ago the target was a federation of states almost like the US, but nowadays with the rise of the right wing eurosceptic parties... ). IMO it's logic and somehow good that our govs commit mistakes ( like believing all the Putin's lies ). But we must learn fast to prevent them in the future or we are gonna have problems.