Ukraine General

[Tonci87 163]

Do you think rebels are dumb enough to destroy the infrastructure they live in? And why had the filmed this abandoned and damaged Grad? They claim they damaged it while returning fire.

About shot down Il-76: this plane was sent to bring a little reinforcement and additional ammo and gear to surrounded NG troops. There was already skirmish between two groups of NG (from Dnepropetrovsk and Western UA) - those from Dnepropetrovsk decided to surrender to rebels. Seems that NGs now don't have any other option than surrender.

Because maybe there were government forces in that compound? Then the Grad got destroyed by something and they decided to do a little bit of propaganda. That sounds more likely than government troops firing Grad launchers at random buildings...

Planes are most vulnerable during take off and landings, those rebels knew what they were doing.

[mistyronin 1181]

Yes... let's send a slow moving military aircraft in an area where rebels are know to have AA systems :banghead:

And it's not the first time the Ukrainian HQ take a "clever" decision. Like when the general of the operation almost got taken by a mob, when they sent IFVs in a urban zone without infantry support...

[vilas 477]

not commenting terrorist act of shooting down plane i just want to remind my boring words again, i said few times about corruption and nepothism, but one of you if i remind correctly said it was not the issue,

so as with this plane, i can only repeat myself - yes, idiot sent slow plane on area taken by people with AA launchers, it is "wise" decision that comes from corrupted, not profesional, nepotism ruled army

it is just another proof how "wise" are those high-ranked guys in Ukraine and what cancer is corruption in nepothism,

there is no place for idiots in profesional company, army, organization, there is place for idiots in organization in which main advantage is "he is son of my friend, so lets hire/promote him"

if Ukraine ever see profesional skills level, 90% of their high ranked clerks, officers, judges should be unemployed, the same to Poland, half of Polish policemen, judges, directors in Ministrys, clerks in Public service , prosecutors should clean streets because their skills only allow them such job, Polish army thanx to NATO changed a loooooot

[mistyronin 1181]

not commenting terrorist act of shooting down plane

I don't consider "terrorist" the simple act of shooting down a plane, after all it was for them an "enemy military marked plane", so a legit target.

Said that, specially in Slaviansk, the pro-Russian violent insurgents have done a lot of terrorism acts ( kidnapping and torturing journalists and international observers, extrajudicial executions, using the population as human shield, etc. ).

[surpher 1]

(NATO) NATO Releases Imagery: Raises Questions on Russia’s Role in Providing Tanks to Ukraine

NATO is providing a series of images (see below) to the public in order to inform debate regarding recent events in the border region of Russia and Ukraine.

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

You mean this nato?-http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2664/Nieuws/article/detail/3669607/2014/06/10/Billions-of-NATO-dollars-unaccounted-for.dhtml

the same one that whas cought lying about the so-called russian build up on their border with same crappy evindence then it came out they where showing old sat pics from a russian military exercise in 2013?

why not complain about the ukrainians crossing the russian border in apc's?

And then that grad,so its been burned,even with rockets still in the tubes,real smart!and looking at the buckets and emty fire extingisheres,someone did burn it,but also tried to save it. who what why?

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Ukraine's Poroshenko vows response to Luhansk plane downing

Those involved in such "cynical acts of terrorism" must be punished, said Mr Poroshenko, who summoned security officials for an emergency meeting.

The defence ministry said the Ilyushin-76 transport plane came under anti-aircraft fire over the city of Luhansk.

It was about to land there, carrying troops and military equipment.

It is thought to be the biggest loss of life suffered by government forces in a single incident since the Ukrainian government in Kiev began an operation to try to defeat the insurgency in the east.

Defence ministry officials are investigating how the separatists brought down the plane, with reports suggesting the use of three "Stinger-like" missiles or a large-calibre machine-gun.

Everyone on board - nine flight crew and 40 troops - was killed.

[Tonci87 163]

(NATO) NATO Releases Imagery: Raises Questions on Russia’s Role in Providing Tanks to Ukraine

I bet something went wrong during the start because of improper handling and the vehicle caught fire. Maybe the backblast area was not clear enough?

[jakerod 254]

Yes... let's send a slow moving military aircraft in an area where rebels are know to have AA systems :banghead:

My thoughts exactly. There is no guarantee that they didnt do this but I feel like sending in fighters first is probably the way to go. Wait and see if they get shot at first and then provide CAS in the event the IL-76 takes fire.

[Tonci87 163]

My thoughts exactly. There is no guarantee that they didnt do this but I feel like sending in fighters first is probably the way to go. Wait and see if they get shot at first and then provide CAS in the event the IL-76 takes fire.

Yeah the Ukrainina generals and officers constantly show that hey are not really up to the task/have no experience/have no imagination and strategic thinking

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

Or they knew and would love to sacrifice some soldiers to blame Russia and get more support?think about it,why fly in a loaded slow moving plane into a area that already seen downing off fighterjets, so a transport wouldn stand a chance!?

[mistyronin 1181]

Or they knew and would love to sacrifice some soldiers to blame Russia and get more support?think about it,why fly in a loaded slow moving plane into a area that already seen downing off fighterjets, so a transport wouldn stand a chance!?

The fighters that were downed were in Donetsk Region, we are talking about Luhansk.

If Ukraine's Gov. want more support from the US they just have to ask.

IMO it's just what it seems, the pro-Russian violent insurgents got lucky and blow up a legit target. End of story.

[spooky lynx 73]

Because maybe there were government forces in that compound? Then the Grad got destroyed by something and they decided to do a little bit of propaganda. That sounds more likely than government troops firing Grad launchers at random buildings...

There were neither govt forces nor rebels at destroyed vegetable-store compound. Only some employees and civil security. As for govt troops shooting at random buildings - today Saur-Mogila WW2 memorial was attacked by their artillery.

[mistyronin 1181]

As for govt troops shooting at random buildings - today Saur-Mogila WW2 memorial was attacked by their artillery.

That artillery rounds are not trying to shoot at the memorial but at the surroundings. Probably due to reports of insurgent activity there.

If they wanted to attack the memorial, they would shoot directly to it. It's a pretty obvious structure and clear target.

[spooky lynx 73]

That artillery rounds are not trying to shoot at the memorial but at the surroundings. Probably due to reports of insurgent activity there.

If they wanted to attack the memorial, they would shoot directly to it. It's a pretty obvious structure and clear target.

There are not so many good arty crews among Ukrs that may hit even this memorial directly with first rounds.

BTW shot down Il-76 carried BMD-2:

http://retina.news.mail.ru/pic/87/5c/image192366_92d75d88ad659e6e440103fe64e89553.jpg (296 kB)

[Tonci87 163]

There are not so many good arty crews among Ukrs that may hit even this memorial directly with first rounds.

BTW shot down Il-76 carried BMD-2:

http://retina.news.mail.ru/pic/87/5c/image192366_92d75d88ad659e6e440103fe64e89553.jpg (296 kB)

While their generals and officers seem to be stupid the common soldier at least knows how to aim his gun/artillery device.

I agree that the monument (quite an impressive structure BTW) is far to prominent to be missed.

There isn´t really that much left of the plane, damn it must have crashed hard....

[spooky lynx 73]

That warbird carrier some ammo also. So it's not surprise that not so much left from it.

Video showing aftermath of crash:

[mistyronin 1181]

BTW shot down Il-76 carried BMD-2:

http://retina.news.mail.ru/pic/87/5c/image192366_92d75d88ad659e6e440103fe64e89553.jpg (296 kB)

I don't see the structure of any BMD, could be a replacement part ( even with the crash and ammo explosions the aluminioum structure should clearly be seen ) .

On the other hand, yeah it was announced by the Ukrainian Gov. that the plane was carried also supplies and ammo. So it's pretty obvious the mass destruction.

Although in the video you showed we can't see secondary explosions but the plane's fuel burning.

[surpher 1]

Looks like the Grad launcher may have been identified as Russian.

Topwar - 18th Motorized Rifle Brigade. Combat Training - images 41-44

Checkout the camo pattern on the first truck passed, it appears to be in the TopWar pictures as well.

Edited July 7, 2014 by surpher
replaced video

[spooky lynx 73]

Grads based on Ural chassis were phased out in 2011 at that brigade. So they may be former Russian.

[Tonci87 163]

Doesn´t reall matter where they come from. By now it should be clear that they were operated by the rebels and they apparently used them wrong.

[Dwarden 1125]

i remember that Russians gave grads to South Ossetia rebels, they used it to shell Georgian villages in south part of South Ossetia until Georgians decided to make swift police action

guess what Russia did after that Police action was successful ...

[spooky lynx 73]

Hm... Photos of that Grad were posted on anti-junta sites, and it was stated that launcher is Ukrainian one. You may ask if rebels may claim their own destroyed Grad as Ukrainian one. But until now they don't hide losses in vehicles (losing BRDM in Mariupol, KamAZ trucks in Donetsk). At the same time pro-UA media just throw BS in case of losses (both among armed forces and civilians). Naming shot down An-30 recon as An-26 transport, simple late production AK-74 with plastic parts (produced since late 80's) as super new top secret GRUFSB AK-100 rifle. Oh and the main thing that makes me doubt in words of UA media about Grad: in our army it's almost impossible to preserve any papers and documents like notepad of officer after 3 years since phasing out. Only if the vehicle is left at some remoted storage base or abandoned somewhere in remote place.

[Tonci87 163]

Well the vehicle was intending to shoot at a NG checkpoint and hit some houses halfway, right? That alone tells me that the vehiccle was operated by separatists. Throw in the facts that it missed horribly, and that they somehow managed to set it on fire during the launch this really points to the theory that the vehicle was operated by people who didn´t really know how to use it. Since government soldiers would have at least managed not to set themselves on fire, this really points to the theory that it was used by rebels. Where they got it from is secondary. Maybe it is one of those that they claimed to have captured?

[pooroldspike 129]

I'm trying to see things through the eyes of ordinary peaceful Donetsk/Lugansk citizens.

So if I or any other forum members were living in that area, exactly what are the things the Ukraine Govt have done over the past few years to make us unhappy?