Ukraine General

[spooky lynx 73]

That is really low.....

Not lower than firing FFAR salvo at populated area or arty shells on civil infrastructure and people. Eye for an eye. Most of those strikes result in only destruction of houses and other buildings. Positions of 'violent thugs' remain unharmed mostly.

[mistyronin 1181]

Eye for an eye.

And all the world goes blind. The Law of Talion is not even medieval, but from ancient Babylon ( from the Hammurabi code, that I had to memorize some years ago in the University :( ). We are in the XXIth century!

If you complain about artillery shooting and fighting in populated areas, ask the Pro-Russian violent insurgents to not use the population as human shields and go to fight in the countryside. I'm 100% sure the Ukrainian Army will prefer it like that.

[Tonci87 163]

Not lower than firing FFAR salvo at populated area or arty shells on civil infrastructure and people. Eye for an eye. Most of those strikes result in only destruction of houses and other buildings. Positions of 'violent thugs' remain unharmed mostly.

You Russians really seem to have a problem with the principle that two wrongs don´t make a right....

Hating a man who has harmed you is one thing, hating his family and his friends is another.

[jakerod 254]

And all the world goes blind. The Law of Talion is not even medieval, but from ancient Babylon ( from the Hammurabi code, that I had to memorize some years ago in the University :( ). We are in the XXIth century!

If you complain about artillery shooting and fighting in populated areas, ask the Pro-Russian violent insurgents to not use the population as human shields and go to fight in the countryside. I'm 100% sure the Ukrainian Army will prefer it like that.

My thoughts exactly. Saddens me that some people still like to live that way.

[spooky lynx 73]

I know that principle of harsh retaliation makes some people think twice next time they decide to become 'more equal than others'. Worked well with Moldovan, Azeri, Georgian and Chechen nationalists who took arms to show they are more humans than their neighbours.

If you complain about artillery shooting and fighting in populated areas, ask the Pro-Russian violent insurgents to not use the population as human shields and go to fight in the countryside. I'm 100% sure the Ukrainian Army will prefer it like that.

The saddest thing is that no insurgent positions were in destroyed blocks in Semenovka and Slaviansk, as well in chemical plant and near main water pipe which distribute water to Slaviansk. They were in other places. But that hadn't stop junta military from firing. The same goes to Lugansk strike. No rebel positions were near administration. But jet fired at the park and administration building. No rebels were harmed, only civilians.

Look, where may be rebel positions at this photos?

http://voicesevas.ru/img/3f18d3b970a2852119c8cda5b76bd9c4.jpg (117 kB)

http://voicesevas.ru/img/d9168581bcb99834bba78d36c9ee741a.jpg (123 kB)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-tB4GsReKU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBOCc613GSc

[Tonci87 163]

Puictures and videos can´t tell you if there were rebels in these buildings during the fighting....

[spooky lynx 73]

It's results of strikes, not fightings. There were no clashes between rebels and junta military.

[mistyronin 1181]

The saddest thing is that no insurgent positions were in destroyed blocks in Semenovka and Slaviansk, as well in chemical plant and near main water pipe which distribute water to Slaviansk. They were in other places. But that hadn't stop junta military from firing. The same goes to Lugansk strike. No rebel positions were near administration. But jet fired at the park and administration building. No rebels were harmed, only civilians.

Point one, as Tonci said you cannot know if there were insurgent positions in that buildings.

Point two, you don't know if there were insurgent positions close to that ones.

The fact is that insurgents set their positions in between highly populated areas which cause... guess what? Damages in highly populated areas!

It's results of strikes, not fightings. There were no clashes between rebels and junta military.

An enemy position is a legit target for a strike according to the Geneva Convention.

But again, why the insurgents still hide there, between the population? Are they so cowards?

It's really funny that you still call them "junta" ( word to designate the ruling council of a military dictatorship or a military government ).

When the new president and chief of the army was voted democratically a couple of weeks ago:

[Tonci87 163]

Yep the rebels could stop damage to civilain buildings quite easily, they just have to stop hiding in them...

[vilas 474]

at the moment in Russian TV i seen... that they claim that US Army fights in East Ukraine, omg what a brainwashing

proof is .. that one man on one photo had... one US army badge : something like Cavalery patch which is in almost all military shops in the globe or was sewn along with M65 jackets

according to Putin - you can buy uparmoured vehicle in shop and machinegun in shop but you cannot buy cotton badge, probably next proof of US and CIA presence will be ACU t-shirt

and don't use junta word as presidential election in Ukraine was made, it is not junta, it is legal government under president of Ukraine

Edited June 13, 2014 by vilas

[pooroldspike 128]

Why don't the Militia like the Ukraine Govt?

Has the Ukraine Govt been ruling the Donetsk/Lugansk people brutally and harshly like nazis?

[vilas 474]

Why don't the Militia like the Ukraine Govt?

Has the Ukraine Govt been ruling the Donetsk/Lugansk people brutally and harshly like nazis?

ever heard of word "nationalism" or "imperialism" ?

Russians (a lot of them, sadly) want to build EMPIRE and dream about EMPIRE so they want "GREAT RUSSIA" which is connected with trying to rule everywhere and force their will over other's will

in centuries Russia occupied lots of countries, including my country, including Baltic states, Finland etc. not talking about many Asian countries,

when Russian Empire collapsed in 1917 and later in 1991 USSR collapsed suddenly this all became independent - do you think they like it ?

many Russians living in other territories want those territories to join Russia - cause they cannot accept that they were invaders there some decades ago,

you are from UK, so you know your own history and colonies of UK ?

now imagine that Brits in Australia/India are madly anger that this territory is not under London governing

similar ?

another reason why they do not like Ukrainian gov is:

- Ukraine was and still is one of most corrupted countries in the world (not talk about Africa), for sure the most corrupted in Europe (corrupted means clerks, police, taking bribes)

- in Russia there is bigger order and more safety (police has better control)

- Russia has 3-4 times better salary

- Russia has 10 times better social care (all benefits such as child support etc)

- Russia is strong, those people do not want to be part of weak country like Ukraine, cause Russian mentality is close to mentality of bullying one, they respect power and stenght, they do not respect weaker, if someone is weak for them it is synonym like he is guilty, if someone is strong , for them it almost means like someone is right,

- Russia commited crimes in past, USSR commited crimes in past - they deny it even today, but they feel like they saved the whole globe and freedom of other nations cause they damaged Third Reich, remember they had 70 of brainwashing propaganda in school during USSR, USSR had over 70 years, and can you think what happens in brains of people who live in brainwashing state for 4 generations ? where schools deny truth and from grandfather, to father, to son - all heard one lies and didn't had any foreign press ?

- Russians are also "bigots" according to EU standards, so as Ukrainian gov said that Ukraine will go to be member of EU - for Russians there it sounds like "o my god, i will be forced to be gay" (VICE news, on VICE there were shown Slavyansk protesters whose main argument against Ukraine was EU membership cause "in EU gays can marry gay") so as Ukrainian gov. forces to go to EU - it is not the way for traditional Russian (as not for traditional Catholic in my country AS WELL , if in my country there would be riots you would hear the same voice, sorry but political correctness is not loved by everybody, for sure not in my part of globe, we do not love it, we are against it, Russian law becomes homophobic, for Ukrainians who want to be in EU, this probably is not recognized cause Ukrainians think that when they will be part of EU than their salaries will be 10 times better and they DO NOT THINK about non-economic issues of membership, while Russians in East Ukrain think about it cause EU doesn't offer them MORE than Russian state, economically it would be for them better in Russia probably, cause in "liberal" Poland social benefits gone to zero, in Russia social care is high like in your country, but in Ukraine for sure it would follow Poland, so they do not want to be part of non-social state)

in short words - EU has nothing to offer to them, UA wants to be in EU,

such factors i see as Pole (neigbor of Ukraine, knowing 2 Russians among my relatives)

- Ukraine was always under occupation of Russia, so Ukrainians very very try to show how Ukrainian they are (thus those language regulations), they get their state FOR THE FIRST TIME in history, so they want to make it so Ukrainian as possible and thus Russians living there want to be part of Russia,

- during WW2 some part of Ukrainians supported Nazis (and USSR see Third Reich as their worst enemy and have cult of WW2 victory), reasons of Ukrainians helping Nazis are politically not correct so i would aviod telling why,

- maybe also issue is in fact that Russian media really make a lot of bias plus some Russian agents were among those Militiamen, so maybe lots of shouting was not by LOCALS but by agents ?

Edited June 13, 2014 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

Why don't the Militia like the Ukraine Govt?

Has the Ukraine Govt been ruling the Donetsk/Lugansk people brutally and harshly like nazis?

1) New UA govt rejects demands of introducing Russian as second state language and federalisation (though federalisation and federation itself is quite normal process and doesn't lead to collapse of the country, two or even three state languages don't lead to hell too - look at Belgium, Switzerland, Canada etc.)

2) Political parties and movements that didn't support maidan are under pressure now, leading candidate for presidency from South-East, Oleg Tsarev was harshly beaten and forced to remove his candidature. Such attitude is unacceptable even in poor third world countries which are far away from civilized standards.

3) Attempts of gatherings and protests against new authorities were brutally dispersed by junta and various far right armed groups.

4) Current junta arms and supports far right groups and parties and forces Ukrainification. Google speeches of Irina Farion for example. Zhrirnovsky, Vilas' favorite politician is just hippie comparing to her.

But again, why the insurgents still hide there, between the population? Are they so cowards?

The answer is simple - most of them belong to it. They are locals. They defend their homes.

[ProfTournesol 956]

It's really funny that you still call them "junta" ( word to designate the ruling council of a military dictatorship or a military government ).

When the new president and chief of the army was voted democratically a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/files/2014/06/Kandydaty-prez-lidery-2014.jpg

^this. It shows how much (some) Russians despise Ukrainian people.

Edited June 13, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[Tonci87 163]

1) New UA govt rejects demands of introducing Russian as second state language and federalisation (though federalisation and federation itself is quite normal process and doesn't lead to collapse of the country, two or even three state languages don't lead to hell too - look at Belgium, Switzerland, Canada etc.)

The new president has said that russian will remain a second state language.

Federalisation almost never works! Especially not in war torn countrys

See Bosnia for example.

Belgium also had a very long political crysis.

2) Political parties and movements that didn't support maidan are under pressure now, leading candidate for presidency from South-East, Oleg Tsarev was harshly beaten and forced to remove his candidature. Such attitude is unacceptable even in poor third world countries which are far away from civilized standards.

Damn i didn´t know that Russia is a third world country. Who were your last two presidents?

3) Attempts of gatherings and protests against new authorities were brutally dispersed by junta and various far right armed groups.

Where did that happen?

4) Current junta arms and supports far right groups and parties and forces Ukrainification. Google speeches of Irina Farion for example. Zhrirnovsky, Vilas' favorite politician is just hippie comparing to her.

Don´t forget that RUssia arms and supports groups that focus on Russification....

The answer is simple - most of them belong to it. They are locals. They defend their homes.

That I can understand, but if they don´t want harm to come to their homes then why did they take up arms without any prior political struggle?

And a large number of them is from Russia...

[spooky lynx 73]

The new president has said that russian will remain a second state language.

Federalisation almost never works! Especially not in war torn countrys

See Bosnia for example.

Belgium also had a very long political crysis.

So according to your logic German, US, Canadian, Belgian, Swiss systems don't work, yes? And new president said in Rada just opposite right after the elections. BTW Russian can't remain a second state one simply because it never was. It was some kind of regional since a couple of years.

Damn i didn´t know that Russia is a third world country. Who were your last two presidents?

At least none of candidates were beaten by angry mob and forced to resign. And none of them lost part of their business and home. So, you've missed.

Where did that happen?

Kiev (Ivan Protsenko and 'For clean city' movement), Harkov, Odessa, Nikolaev, Mariupol (when Lyashko's thugs used killed a number of unarmed protesters), Donetsk (but here RS activists lost the fight).

Don´t forget that RUssia arms and supports groups that focus on Russification....

What are this groups? I don't know any. Federalisation - yes (earlier). Separation - yes. But not Russification. Even in 'annexed' Crimea three state languages are set. Unlike 'ein volk, ein reich, ein mova' ideology of Poroshenko. Be so kind and show me the groups that focus on Russification (with quotes of their members).

That I can understand, but if they don´t want harm to come to their homes then why did they take up arms without any prior political struggle?

And a large number of them is from Russia...

Again please google what was the end of peaceful negotiations of Ivan Protsenko with maidanuts in Kiev. Look how quickly current regime started to use army (not some LEOs like Yanuk) against pro-fed regions. How do you think is it possible to negotiate with regime that relies on right sector activists, legalizes and arms them via national guard formations and uses armor against people who wanted their language to be second state one?

Edit: meanwhile two UA armed forces APCs crossed Russian border in Rostov region. At first it was one, but it suffered engine fault and stopped. APC was detected by our border guard patrol which tried to pursue the violators. But after it second APC arrived and took the crew of broken one, threating border guard with its MG and escaped on UA territory. Broken APC still remains on Russian territory.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[surpher 1]

I worked out where the "junta" fired the Grad rockets from this morning, and the area they hit. Strange that they fired westwards into territory under their control.:rolleyes:

[Tonci87 163]

So in the end it will be known that actually the rebels used their captured Grad launcher to fire into a residential area?

[surpher 1]

Well I think they was aiming for a NG checkpoint. Here is an article, contains one grizzly image of a covered dead body, needs to be translated.

censor.net.ua NSFW

[spooky lynx 73]

I worked out where the "junta" fired the Grad rockets from this morning, and the area they hit. Strange that they fired westwards into territory under their control.:rolleyes:

Does not surprise at all especially if you remember airstrike at attacked UA army checkpoint.

[Tonci87 163]

Does not surprise at all especially if you remember airstrike at attacked UA army checkpoint.

Oh come on. Don´t you think that maybe the rebels operated that Grad launcher?

[mistyronin 1181]

Oh come on. Don´t you think that maybe the rebels operated that Grad launcher?

*Black ironic mode ON*

How could the amazing incredible freedom fighters do such a thing? If they spend most of their time gathering flowers in the forest to bring to every girl from Donetsk. They are really good lads.

Not like those monsters from the Ukrainian Army that terrorize their own population, massacring them just for fun, I'm pretty sure they also rape them, and burn their houses, and eat their babies. They are so evil that even shoot their own troops.

But have hope, the super-fair-Police-of-the-world ( A.K.A. Russian Federation ), the liberator of the oppressed countries of the East of Europe, will come eventually to save the day.

*Black ironic Mode OFF*

Have I done it right? I may even get a job in RT or LifeNews.ru! And a medal to the neutrality from Putin.

[jakerod 254]

Ukranian IL-76 Shot down (CNN)

A Ukrainian military plane with at least 49 passengers was shot down overnight Friday, a source said, making it the latest and likely one of the bloodiest single events in that nation's current period of turmoil.

The Ilyushin-76 military transport plane went down while approaching an airport in the eastern Ukrainian city of Luhansk, a source with the Ukrainian Anti-Terror Operation of the Ukrainian military forces told CNN.

It was not immediately clear how many of those aboard died or survived.

[spooky lynx 73]

Oh come on. Don´t you think that maybe the rebels operated that Grad launcher?

Do you think rebels are dumb enough to destroy the infrastructure they live in? And why had the filmed this abandoned and damaged Grad? They claim they damaged it while returning fire.

About shot down Il-76: this plane was sent to bring a little reinforcement and additional ammo and gear to surrounded NG troops. There was already skirmish between two groups of NG (from Dnepropetrovsk and Western UA) - those from Dnepropetrovsk decided to surrender to rebels. Seems that NGs now don't have any other option than surrender.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[Maio 293]

Ukranian IL-76 Shot down (CNN)

Yes... let's send a slow moving military aircraft in an area where rebels are know to have AA systems :banghead: