Ukraine General

[surpher 1]

Okay I've been googling around and the situation has become much clearer, tell me if I've got it right-

The pro-Russian 'Donbass Peoples Militia' formed the 'Donetsk Peoples Republic', and attacked Kiev Govt buildings in the DPR, so the Kiev Govt had no choice but to go in to tackle them, calling them "terrorists".

I don't see how the Militia can win alone, perhaps they're hoping Putin will invade to support them?

The attacking of government buildings and military bases came before the formation of the DPR.

(Al Jazeera) Timeline: Ukraine's political crisis

[mistyronin 1181]

I don't see how the Militia can win alone, perhaps they're hoping Putin will invade to support them?

It seems that the Pro-Russians from Donetsk have the magical ability to cast super modern Russian weapons from the void and also to gather "ex" Russian spec ops and veterans from Chechnya war and Georgian war, also the former members of the paramilitary Berkut. They also cast AA guns, artillery, rockets, and armored vehicles. According to Putin, all that can be bought in stores.

It's also important to have in mind that the Ukrainian Army at the moment of the Crimea invasion only had 6000 soldiers able to fight. And for what we have seen their commanders are awful ( the general that directs the operation almost managed to get taken by an angry mob when he was trying to talk to them without any weapon nor escort ).

They have lost planes and a lot of combat helicopters ( not even the Taliban in Afghanistan were that successful in almost 10 years of war ), even dozens of armored IFV ( BMP and BMD ).

The believe of some analysts already from the beginning, is that Putin doesn't want to annex those regions. But to debilitate and destabilize Ukraine as much as he can so the rest of the world have to care about them and use a lot of resources, and also forget about the Crimean invasion.

To make it even more "funny", some of Ukraine's oligarchs have made their own private armies and play in both sides.

Edited June 11, 2014 by MistyRonin

[miketim 20]

-Delete-

Decided I didn't really want to post

Edited June 11, 2014 by MikeTim

[spooky lynx 73]

It seems that the Pro-Russians from Donetsk have the magical ability to cast super modern Russian weapons from the void and also to gather "ex" Russian spec ops and veterans from Chechnya war and Georgian war, also the former members of the paramilitary Berkut. They also cast AA guns, artillery, rockets, and armored vehicles. According to Putin, all that can be bought in stores.

Would you mind to show what super modern Russian weapons do Pro-Russian fighters have?

They have lost planes and a lot of combat helicopters ( not even the Taliban in Afghanistan were that successful in almost 10 years of war ), even dozens of armored IFV ( BMP and BMD ).

That's not surprise if you find out how the majority of Ukrainian army is trained. Even Russian army at first Chechen war was better (right after economy collapse). And Taliban doesn't have much sponsors who can give them at least some MANPADs ant ATGMs. Their armament does not differ much from 80's mujaheeden. They fight with hi-end equipped enemy. So it's not surprise that poorly trained and motivated army equipped with late 80's - early 90's era gear suffers losses from highly motivated and at least the same way (or better) trained rebels with the same equipment. It's easy to shell civil blocks or ride against unarmed citizens but when it comes to serious battle with rival who has the same gear - UA army and various nazi and oligarch-sponsored batallions loses often. History with Galichina division is repeated.

Edit:

http://lifenews.ru/news/134892

Seems that NG used "Willy Pete" mines during recent night artillery strike at Slaviansk.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[mistyronin 1181]

Would you mind to show what super modern Russian weapons do Pro-Russian fighters have?

For instance 9K338 Igla-S ( SA-24 Grinch in NATO designation ).

And Taliban doesn't have much sponsors who can give them at least some MANPADs ant ATGMs.

That's the quid of the question. That's what I was answering to PoorOldSpike, maybe in a too ironic way.

I don't see how the Militia can win alone, perhaps they're hoping Putin will invade to support them?

So now you know PoorOldSpike, if you ever want to start a insurrection against any government for any excuse, you need good "sponsors" ( even better if you can manage to get the Kremlin itself as a sponsor ;) ).

[spooky lynx 73]

For instance 9K338 Igla-S ( SA-24 Grinch in NATO designation ).

12-yers old weapon that was already exported since 2006 (maybe in Ukraine too) and used in Libya ans Syria? I would not name it super modern. Moreover I could not find any particular markings that could really show that Donbass fighters have Igla-S but not earlier Igla model (which is in Ukrainian army inventory since 1991). What else?

Edited June 12, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[surpher 1]

Edit:

http://lifenews.ru/news/134892

Seems that NG used "Willy Pete" mines during recent night artillery strike at Slaviansk.

That story probably has a much credibility as this nonsense.

Semenivka on fire: suburb Sloviansk fired incendiary shells

Orignal video.

Original

[Tonci87 163]

Dear Russians, how can you still believe that media after they have been proven to lie so often?

[pooroldspike 129]

..The attacking of government buildings and military bases came before the formation of the DPR...

Ah, so the Militia have been looking for trouble for a long time!

That explains why Kiev aircraft are targetting Militia-held buildings in the DPR..:)

It seems that the Pro-Russians from Donetsk have the magical ability to cast super modern Russian weapons from the void and also to gather "ex" Russian spec ops and veterans from Chechnya war and Georgian war, also the former members of the paramilitary Berkut. They also cast AA guns, artillery, rockets, and armored vehicles. According to Putin, all that can be bought in stores.

.....So now you know PoorOldSpike, if you ever want to start a insurrection against any government for any excuse, you need good "sponsors" ( even better if you can manage to get the Kremlin itself as a sponsor..:)

Thanks, so it seems clear that Putin doesn't want to invade the DPR and get called 'Hitler' again, so he's doing the next best thing and supplying them with weapons and special troops.

But Kiev still has a lot more men and weapons (including 24 Su-25 ground-attack planes), so I still don't see how the Militia can hope to win.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Air_Force

Edited June 12, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[Tonci87 163]

Ah, so the Militia have been looking for trouble for a long time!

That explains why Kiev aircraft are targetting Militia-held buildings in the DPR..:)

Thanks, so it seems clear that Putin doesn't want to invade the DPR and get called 'Hitler' again, so he's doing the next best thing and supplying them with weapons and special troops.

But Kiev still has more men and weapons (including 24 Su-25 ground-attack planes), so I still don't see how the Militia can hope to win.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Air_Force

My guess is that they hope (or initially hoped) to cause such a big mess that the Russian military can use humanitarian aid and restoration of peace as excuses to occupy the area. Surprisingly the Ukrainian military is acting very cautious and trying not to harm civilians. That is more or less the only thing they did quite well so far.

[vilas 477]

so I still don't see how the Militia can hope to win.

they wanted to cause Russian state intervention , which could start WW3 hypotetically,

those people on the East differ a lot from those from Western part of Ukraine, westernians want to EU, eastern want to live traditional way which on west is called "bigotery" (on vidoes posted some time ago, a lot of them were saying that they fight against gay marriages for example)

issue is not in laguage, issue is in philosophy of life, things called "bigotery" in west, in the east are called "morality" - those things are not only causing misunderstanding, but some time come to hardcore

so it is not only language issue (the same feeling hits our hearts in Poland, from one hand we prefere Western freedom and democracy in politics and capitalism or liberalism or, from other side we are closer to Putin than to Dutch , maybe we are closed to US Republicans )

Edited June 12, 2014 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

Dear Russians, how can you still believe that media after they have been proven to lie so often?

Where's the lies in lifenews video I've posted?

My guess is that they hope (or initially hoped) to cause such a big mess that the Russian military can use humanitarian aid and restoration of peace as excuses to occupy the area. Surprisingly the Ukrainian military is acting very cautious and trying not to harm civilians. That is more or less the only thing they did quite well so far.

Indeed, shooting unguided rockets from jets, using all available artillery against civil infrastructure in Slaviansk is really try not to harm civilians... And shooting in civil cars, killing people too. FPDR

[Tonci87 163]

Do you have ANY unbiased source for the use of WP inside an area with civilians?

[spooky lynx 73]

Do you have ANY unbiased source for the use of WP inside an area with civilians?

I can translate what is said by cameraman in lifenews video:

00:08 - "Oh just right into the village..."

00:12 - "We need to move civilians from residential area" (on radio)

00:18 - "Yes we need to evacuate, need to evacuate"

00:48 - "It's like where we used to live"

00:56 - "The whole Semenovka is shelled"

01:00 - "They start to burn the village, ***, it will burn all night long"

01:10 - "Look they want to burn the village. Look what are they doing"

Sure you may say it's all Putin's propaganda and fake filmed in studio, and I lie and write not translation but BS to make you believe Kremlin propaganda but I hear this words and from what I see at the video I don't have a reason not to believe it. So it's up to you to believe this video and me or not.

BTW you may find plenty of photo/video evidence how Ukrainian military 'tries not to harm civilians' but much of them is in "gore/NSFW" category. I hope you can understand why.

Edit: another video from Slaviansk showing use of those shells

Edited June 12, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[mistyronin 1181]

I can translate what is said by cameraman in lifenewsvideo:

Hasn't he ask for unbiased sources? Not for the most lier source in the Russia media ( with the permission of RT ).

( StopFake.org ) Lifenews.ru lies about 3 Ukrainian air defense regiment desertion into Crimea Autonomy side

( StopFake.org ) Fake Photos Appeared on the Internet, of Children who were Supposedly Killed in Eastern Ukraine

( StopFake.org ) Fake: Donetsk militants seized two Ukrainian rocket launchers “GRADâ€

( StopFake.org ) Donetsk “Berkut†did not change over to the side of self-proclaimed Governor Gubarev

If you think that StopFake.org are against LifeNews, you can check this:

( StopFake.org ) True: LifeNews uploaded to YouTube story about shooting Slovyansk day before the event

( StopFake.org ) Fake: a LifeNews journalist directed the fire of separatists

Up to this moment the only main Russian media that can more or less be trusted are RIA Novosti and ITAR-TASS.

[pooroldspike 129]

My guess is that they hope (or initially hoped) to cause such a big mess that the Russian military can use humanitarian aid and restoration of peace as excuses to occupy the area. Surprisingly the Ukrainian military is acting very cautious and trying not to harm civilians. That is more or less the only thing they did quite well so far.

Yes but there's still civilian collateral damage. I hear that many Militia members wear civilian clothes and don't wear uniforms, so it's impossible to tell if these people are civilians or Militia, like in this still frame from a video where this woman had her legs blown off in an airstrike against a Militia-held building. Videos like this don't lie..;)

EDIT- on second thoughts i'd better not post it without moderators permission in case it upsets some people

Edited June 12, 2014 by PoorOldSpike

[mistyronin 1181]

Yes but there's still civilian collateral damage such as these who were caught in a Ukrainian airstrike on a Militia-held building in Lugansk.

Incidentally I hear that many Militia members wear civilian clothes and don't wear uniforms, so it's impossible to tell if these people are civilians or Militia, like this woman who had her legs blown off (gore edited out) in an airstrike against a Militia-held building-

That's how the XXI century wars are fight. Well, mainly what is called the asymmetric warfare.

If one side doesn't have enough resources and support its forced to use that kind of strategies ( multipliers of force ), using human shields, deploying their forces in the middle of highly populated areas, kidnapping and terrorizing the population, dressing like journalists and other civilians.

All of those have been done by the Pro-Russians in Ukraine.

It's impossible to avoid whats called the "collateral" damage. In fact not even in the "most clean" of the wars with the best technology, just check the international coalition invasion of Iraq ( the first months ).

Edited June 12, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

Yes but there's still civilian collateral damage. I hear that many Militia members wear civilian clothes and don't wear uniforms, so it's impossible to tell if these people are civilians or Militia, like in this still frame from a video where this woman had her legs blown off in an airstrike against a Militia-held building. Videos like this don't lie..;)

EDIT- on second thoughts i'd better not post it without moderators permission in case it upsets some people

It is not only that but they also use civilians as human shields.

And yes Spooky, judging by the degree of fighting the Ukrainian military is acting extremely cautiously to not harm any civilians.

And that WP video could also be from some military excercise with audio put on top of it. Or we are seeing illumination rounds and not WP...

[spooky lynx 73]

Hasn't he ask for unbiased sources? Not for the most lier source in the Russia media ( with the permission of RT ).

( StopFake.org )

Oh please not that Mohilyanska Journalist school 'honest' project:D

Look at the bottom of their site:

Цей Ñайт Ñтворено за підтримки Державного Департаменту СШРчерез оÑвітню партнерÑьку програму.

This site was created with the support of the U.S. State Department through an educational partnership program.

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Ukraine: Tanks 'cross from Russia'

Ukrainian interior minister says three tanks have crossed border from Russia, amid reports of fresh fighting

( Interfax ) Three Russian tanks cross Ukraine's border, fight ongoing with Ukrainian security forces near Snizhne - media

Russia has sent three tanks to Donetsk region, but they were intercepted by Ukrainian troops near the town of Snizhne, Donetsk region, the Censor.NET online newspaper has reported, citing Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov.

"Tonight, three T-72 tanks crossed Ukraine's state border from Russia. One tank is in the town of Snizhne. Two other tanks moved out of the town. In the vicinity of Snizhne these tanks were intercepted by Ukrainian troops. The fight is ongoing. There are reports that a Russian T-72 was hit," the newspaper quoted Avakov as saying.

"In Ukraine, these tanks were decommissioned from the arsenal of the Armed Forces. However, they are in service with the Russian army. There is also evidence that APCs available to militants in Snizhne were previously captured by Russian soldiers in Crimea at the military units of Ukrainian coastal defense troops," Tymchuk said.

Edited June 12, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

Yep, that's one of those tanks:

If you look at this 'Russian' tank you'll see... T-64BV. Used by Ukrs. Three such tanks were captured by 'violent rebels' some days earlier.

Where had I seen the same things?... Oh in 08.08.08, when coulmns of Georgian tanks advancing at Tskhinval were shown as Russian ones.

[mistyronin 1181]

Yep, that's one of those tanks:

If you look at this 'Russian' tank you'll see... T-64BV. Used by Ukrs. Three such tanks were captured by 'violent rebels' some days earlier.

Where had I seen the same things?... Oh in 08.08.08, when coulmns of Georgian tanks advancing at Tskhinval were shown as Russian ones.

Where is the source of your information?

BTW to me the tank in that video looks more like this T72 ( the author and commentators of your video in YouTube share my opinion ) :

Edited June 12, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

Where is the source of your information?

Almighty FSB spynet:D

And to be seriously - I just googled it. The channel is clearly pro-Ukr as you may notice.

BTW to me the tank in that video looks more like this:

T-72 ( that Ukraine doesn't have )

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/T-72_Ajeya1.jpg (152 kB)

That's definitely T-64 - just look at wheels that smaller than T-72 ones, ERA bricks places at different angles that Ajaya ones, IR searchlight on the left side of turret (T-72's one is on the right) and what differs it most of all - sound of boxer diesel engine. Compare any video with moving T-72 and this one and you'll see that it is clearly T-64.

BTW Ukrs already start using T-72s again.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Spooky Lynx
spelling

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

Spooky let them be,they will believe anything they see or read on western media propaganda sites,btw just read it 2 on bbc and knew it will be blamed on Russia right away. while the ukrainian army walks away from their posts because they dont get food,pay or anything from their bosses in kiev,and they keep bombing civilian poppulations but you wont hear any one in the west complain or react to it. but like ive said before keep blaming Russia for it.

[pooroldspike 129]

At the moment I'm pro-Ukraine because the rebels started the aggression by occupying Ukraine Govt buildings in Donetsk/Lugansk and killing pro-Ukraine troops and civilians. That's not good.

Whose side are people in this forum on?