Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

Since when are unarmed civilian ppl in mariupol "terrorists"and what crime did they commit when they got shot and killed by Ukraine army? celebrathing V-day mayby?

I think ( correct me if I'm wrong ), that no one in this thread said that the unarmed civilians in Mariupol were terrorists. We were talking about the armed militias in Mariupol, here for example the so called "Vostok" battalion:

And from my part I condemn any civilian casualty; although judging for the kind of conflict I'm afraid there are gonna be a lot in both sides or just people that are not affiliated to any side ( mainly because the fights are done in heavy inhabited areas, which was already a pro-Russian strategy ).

BTW I don't think today is a different day than the ones before in civilian victims or fights.

[Rain^^ 10]

and you dare to say it not happened and there is no proofs

Where I deny that on the orders of Stalin and Beria were killed by Poles?

I don't deny Katyn. Unlike the Poles who forget 1919-1921

We should not deny the fact that in Polish captivity after the Polish-Soviet War 1919-1921, thousands of Soviet soldiers were martyred in the Polish camps.

And I am surprised as Poles do not like to talk about how in January 1934, Poland and Germany signed a nonaggression pact.

And as Poles do not like to talk about how Poland gladly participated in the partition of Czechoslovakia, instigated by Adolf Hitler.

The rights of an ally of Nazi Germany Poland acquired region, where the population of 80 thousand Poles and 120 thousand Czechs.

I'm not understand how country is one of the hardest hit in the War so simple destroys and defile monuments.

[vilas 477]

monuments of murders who murdered AK army should be deleted it would be like keeping SS-officers monuments

and details of 1919 war, where Soviet Army invaded Poland after Poland get finally independence (after being occupied by Tsars Russia) was already discussed here , cannot compare executions made by Red Army Bolshevik Army with deaths due to poor hygiene condition (in state under invasion )

[Tonci87 163]

Just look it(with 4:15) Do you like it?

Today Mariupol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Td6cdhhK8

Really shitty situation in that video. And I think you should remove it before a mod sees it.

@4:15 I see a drunken idiot who would have been crushed by a BMP if they didn´t shot at him. Very stupid situation but it propably saved his life (as harsh as it may sound, but I think the Ukrainian soldiers did the right thing in that situation. It is better to have a bullet wound than beeing crushed by a BMP). There is no way that BMP would have stoped in time.

Then I see a mob becoming extremely hostile and then soldiers loosing their nerves wich is absolutely not OK and they should be punished for that.

[Rain^^ 10]

What should I like or dislike in that video? :rolleyes:

How the National Guard killing unarmed people. It's ok?

And why Guardian not write about it? Guardian can only quote Facebook-General Avakov. But believe can him only a man who can not respect yourself or idiot.

Google: "Yanukovich issued order" and you will find most of the evidences.

And where there is this order '?

There is no document confirming this. Only titles in the media Yanukovich 'issued criminal order' to fire at protesters.

If there was such a decree that Yatsenyuk or Turchynov would have long ran with it and showed reporters.

And yeah, the communist flag means the same as the Third Reich ones: dictatorship, military invasions, concentration camps ( Gulag? Road of Bones, etc. ?), millions of dead due to oppression; so what?

Go to Russia, Belarus and tell it to the people who live there I sure most ppl will think you're an idiot. But it is your right to associate flag of Soviet Union with flag of Nazi Germany

militias armed with

In Ukraine you can buy AA, AT, BTR, BMD, BMP or maybe You don't know about this?

We were talking about the armed militias in Mariupol, here for example the so called "Vostok" battalion:

It's not Mariupol it's Donetsk. And what u want know about battalion "Vostok"? Maybe you think that is Russian Spetsnaz GRU :D About this loves to talk Facebook-General Avakov.

He sees them every night in dreams :)

And what did there these military from OSCE?

The Guardian

Government troops were attempting to drive out pro-Russia militants who had seized the building, the interior minister said.

These terrorists?

http://i.imgur.com/sn4VMMb.jpg (208 kB)

The building shot from BMP

Edited May 9, 2014 by Rain^^

[Tonci87 163]

How the National Guard killing unarmed people. It's ok?

And why Guardian not write about it? Guardian can only quote Facebook-General Avakov. But believe can him only a man who can not respect yourself or idiot.

And where there is this order '?

There is no document confirming this. Only titles in the media Yanukovich 'issued criminal order' to fire at protesters.

If there was such a decree that Yatsenyuk or Turchynov would have long ran with it and showed reporters.

Go to Russia, Belarus and tell it to the people who live there I sure most ppl will think you're an idiot. But it is your right to associate flag of Soviet Union with flag of Nazi Germany

In Ukraine you can buy AA, AT, BTR, BMD, BMP or maybe You don't know about this?

No it is not OK that the national guard kills unarmed people, but then in all the videos I saw it is the people who approach the national guard in a very agressive way. maybe they shouldn´t do that?

Link me to a shop where I can buy RPG-18, RPG-7, Strela and a BMD please, I always wanted to have such toys and especially the BMD seems like a nice alternative to a sports car. Stop spreading BS

[vilas 477]

I sure most ppl will think you're an idiot.

because some of them are nationalists and fascists who not see anything bad in : invading other countries, anexing other country territory, denial to other nations law to be free and independent, bullying minorities, imperialism etc. such people vote on Zhyrinovsky, communist party not on Yabloko

[ProfTournesol 956]

I think is that a great country must accept its own history, without trying to distort it and bend it in a way it serves its governement interests.

Of course, 20 millions of Russian casualties during WW2 must be honored, and probably that's what the red flags mean. But one must not forget or soften all the horrific aspects of the Soviet regime.

[mistyronin 1181]

How the National Guard killing unarmed people. It's ok?

Where in that video did you watch that, because I've been watching all the videos from today, and I haven't seen any National Guard killing unarmed people ( not even in the photos ). But I saw dead bodies from both sides with gun injuries.

And why Guardian not write about it?

The Guardian is reporting about the news in Mariupol.

Go to Russia, Belarus and tell it to the people who live there I sure most ppl will think you're an idiot.

I've asked people from that countries, and as in Germany you could find those who missed that "era of power" and those who condemn that crimes. None thought I'm an idiot. But you can go to all the countries of the former Soviet Union and ask about it ( I bet you that in a huge majority of those countries they will support my point ).

In Ukraine you can buy AA, AT, BTR, BMD, BMP or maybe You don't know about this?

Then all what RT, RIA Novosti and so on said that the insurgents captured them from the Ukrainian Army were lies? :rolleyes:

Anyway the point is that you were comparing Maidan's demonstrators from those the only minority armed was using sticks, stones, molotov cocktails and pellet guns with a pro-Russian militia armed with full war weapons arsenal ( from the BMD, to to AT & AA weapons, Grad system, etc.

I'm sorry forum mate, but you make really weird comparisons.

Of course, 20 millions of Russian casualties during WW2 must be honored, and probably that's what the red flags mean. But one must not forget or soften all the horrific aspects of the Soviet regime.

A good number of those were victims of those who lead the government under that red flag.

[vilas 477]

But you can go to all the countries of the former Soviet Union and ask about it.

not only ex republics, but also countries that were not part of USSR , Hungary had their problems in 1956, Czechoslovakia, Poland (probably the most in size of terror and number of killed among non-USSR republics, specially from 1944-1956, from 1944 till 1947 we had still WW2 here, just commies were fighting with patriotic/capitalist/catholic resistance, till 1947 in Poland there was no peace, but civil war , commies vs. nation till they killed majority of WW2 non-socialistic, non-commie resistance, who wanted Poland to return for state it was before 1939 , free market, many parties, Church etc. and when "kulaks" were here fought and when commies planned to take land from farmers and establish Kolhozs but after 1956 it stopped, but time from 1944-1956 was almost as bloody for us as time from 1939, just there was no such big death camps and no regular army firefights, but in small villages, in forests still was firefights with non-commies, with patriots who wanted country to be rulled by nation not by agents from Moscow, with catholic-guerillas, with noble-remains, with pro-capitalistic parties) , Romania,

UPA was fighting with both Poles and Russians, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursed_soldiers

Edited May 9, 2014 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

A good number of those were victims of those who lead the government under that red flag.

Probably, yes.

[Tonci87 163]

A good number of those were victims of those who lead the government under that red flag.

And many more if you count the indirect murders.

Stalin forced his generals to compete in a race for Berlin. The generals didn´t give a damn how many of their soldiers would die during that race and they based their tactics around that. Soviet soldiers were extremely expendable. I would argue that they died in the hundreds of thousands only due to poor and careless tactics.

[vilas 477]

by the way , those who fought for free market, not collectivisation, were also called fascists by NKVD , thats why when Russia now accuse someone of fasicsm i do not believe them, cause they accused of fascism those who do not wanted Kolhoz or one-party system in which only one party can exist and there are no elections http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939%E2%80%9345), they were using this word against so many, that in their mouths this word now sounds like "our opponent",

problem is that tensions in Ukraine will:

- make lots of people suffer,

- grow nationalism (the real one, not imagined),

- cost neigbor (Poland) a lot in economy and business,

- Ukrainian mafia, oligarchs will now be treated like usual businesmen and legal entities,

- countries like Estonia , Lithuania, Latvia who have big Russian minority will fear and inside those countries also some nationalism can appear,

- many countries would waste lots of money on weapons instead on building new hospitals,

- more cheap labour will hit EU and more mafia will hit EU (EU will start treating Ukrainians more open, as result you will have what German people have in Lands that border with Poland - stolen cars and stolen bikes) and mafia will be controlling those labour work, mafia gonna export female-slaves to western red-light houses, mafia gonna controll money flood etc. ,

- Ukrainian state will not solve too much problems themselves cause Timoshenko party gonna win (there is no difference in corruption between them and Yanuk party) and once again corruption gonna rule, making milions of Ukrainians dream to emigrate, if they emigrate than in neigbor country like mine, can be much bigger unemployment and poverty due to lack of jobs,

- Russians will be more fascists and nationalists, cause they will feel like "we are strong, we have right to tell others what we want" and imperialism gonna grow in Russians, they were opressors who feel to be victims, strange indeed,

because of those firefights and what separatists do (they do not want to wait for elections in Ukraine) and because of Putin annexation of Crimea, everyone forgets about corruption in Ukraine and that Maidan was also fight AGAINST rotten corrupted government, all this what was AGAINST corruption now vanished,

people in Maidan do not wanted Timoshenko, but due to this all , now she returns in glory,

Maidan people wanted to change corrupted country to country with European standards of government, but now they simply have another guys with many miiiiiiiilions of dollars on their bank accounts which they get in "strange way" in early 90s,

all world focus is now away from "ideals" which were foundation of Maidan, while all this started cause people do not wanted anymore corruption, now they have another Oligarch in rule, studying CV or their governing leaders now gives interesting informations, for example that one guy was only 18teen when his "company" started to deal with privatisation , nice... guy even not finished secondary school but decided about privatisation of state property, nice

Ukraine sadly has to continue operation because after Russia anexed Crime they would have the same with their eastern part, it would be anexed by Russia if they would not react

Edited May 9, 2014 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

Interesting survey in Ukraine and Russia : http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/

One result may be concerning for peace in Europe though :

[vilas 477]

yes, it is begining of fascism, i was talking about since long in this topic, look: Zhyrinovsky says that Poland, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia , Estonia should not exist and Ukrainians should be deported to Alaska has... 11-12 % of votes

commies who want to reestablish USSR have 20%

so you have 30% of those who want to "build empire" on other nations lands,

plus you have Putin which acts like small fascist, plus even in this topic few sites ago you heard that Chechens do not have neither right to independence, moreover you heard dozens of pages that other countries do not have right to have anti-missile systems, maybe in some time Russians would say that other countries do not have right to have army and bulletproof vests so not single Russian will die when Russia will invade them etc.

leaders of separatitsts can make real problem in Europe cause they want join Russia (anexation of territory)

this voting shows that more of half of them do not understand that it was them who occupied other territories , not vice versa

they occupied Poland, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, other countries located in Asia which names hard to remember,

half of Russians seems to believe that "if we occupy some land, it belongs to us" but when someone fights with occupation "terrorists, fascists"

each nation should have right to their own independence, even east-Ukraine part too , but no anexation like Crimea,

if Crimea and this east-Ukraine would be like independent - maybe there would be no issues, but as Crimea shown, those who lead separatists do not think about independence but to change borders of Russia with cost of other countries ,

of course all mess was established during USSR, maybe if borders of Ukrainian SSR were closed only to native-Ukrainian nation lands we would have in 1992 twice smaller Ukraine and no problems there, but borders WERE established by Soviet leaders and it is hard now to move it because of other countries may-want to do the same with their neigbors

also we still do not know if people in east of Ukraine really wanna move from Ukraine in majority, or simpy 30% bullies 70% with arms , we do not know it,

we do not know if there is 30%, 50%, 70% of will to be independent,

maybe 30% has guns and dictate to 70%

maybe 70% wants - we do not know it

Edited May 9, 2014 by vilas

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, it's more than 20% :

[vilas 477]

with last vote you have also issue of economy, mafia(crime rate)

for example in police-states like we had before 1989 crime rate was few times smaller (with forensic technic which was waaaay worse than now, it is important factor in police job)

cause punishments were much harsh (which many people like)

you had no unemployment etc. of course such voting result may be little confusing in 2014 (would not be confusing in 1994 when mafia ruled streets)

Edited May 9, 2014 by vilas

[Rain^^ 10]

AFP: La visite de Poutine en Crimée "inappropriée" (Rasmussen)

http://www.afp.com/fr/node/2372685

And visit by the head of CIA in Kiev is ok is appropriate?

Or Catherine Ashton and McCain on Maidan is ok?

Where in that video did you watch that

Look again, there killed two people and injured one.

Putin fascist.. Russia will invade..

Is a Polish tradition?

Zhyrinovsky says that Poland, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia , Estonia should not exist and Ukrainians should be deported to Alaska has... 11-12 % of votes

commies who want to reestablish USSR have 20%

:D now I understand. I feel sorry for you if you listen to Zhirinovsky

And I hear from Yarosh that need to kill Russians. I'm hearing from Timosheko that need to kill all the Russian population of Ukraine.

Then all what RT, RIA Novosti and so on said that the insurgents captured them from the Ukrainian Army were lies?

I said that weapon can buy anyone. Do you understand?

[mistyronin 1181]

And visit by the head of CIA in Kiev is ok is appropriate?

Or Catherine Ashton and McCain on Maidan is ok?

Because the Kiev legit Gov. ( voted by 73% of the parliament democratically elected in 2012 ) can invite who ever they want to Ukraine.

While Putin was visiting a region that the Russian Army has invaded and the Russian Gov. annexed. Which are crimes according to international law.

I said that weapon can buy anyone. Do you understand?

Nope, you don't make any sense.

[Tonci87 163]

zip

Kudos for completely ignoring my post on the subject of the injured guy.

Now please link me to the Ukrainian shop where I can buy military grade weapons and vehicles. If you can´t do that then please STFU.

[arttem 1]

....

With whom you try to deal here?

[vilas 477]

And visit by the head of CIA in Kiev is ok is appropriate?

Or Catherine Ashton and McCain on Maidan is ok?

the same as visit of any boss from GRU in Yanuk adminsitration era

simply it is international cooperation and independence that Ukrainians have right to invitate anyone whom they want - their country, their guests, it is called Independence that in one country you can invitate Putin, in other country you can invitate Obama,

also because western stardards are more welcome by many people then eastern standards (among which nepothism and corruption is strong cause in some eastern tradition bribe was traditional gift and now people do not see anything bad in "thanks" to administration public servant, while in other countries one can end in jail for such "thanks" , the same with nepothism, in the east son inherits position after father, in west the one who had more points at exam takes job, so place of birth doesn't decide as much as in the east then son of officer has biggest chance to enter military/police academy and son of woman working in shop has zero chances, this is difference between east and west too, so many people prefere cooperate with US and EU than with country in which there is Oligarchy, so mafia-businesman has blue strobe and drives 200 km/h on red light in city center with his BMW7)

[With whom you try to deal here?/QUOTE]

with those who never sent milions of other nation people to gulags

[mistyronin 1181]

tit is called Independence that in one country you can invitate Putin, in other country you can invitate Obama,

A bit offtopic, but last summer, Putin slept in a hotel in my street ( 100 mts from my house ).

[blu3sman 11]

Here are poor unarmed people that were murdered by Nazi Guard bandits.

http://cs616320.vk.me/v616320079/a6dd/EBJYMx2aDew.jpg (146 kB)

[spooky lynx 73]

Because the Kiev legit Gov. ( voted by 73% of the parliament democratically elected in 2012 ) can invite who ever they want to Ukraine.

Are you definitely sure it was the same Rada that was elected in 2012?

Edit: Nazional guard left Mariupol. Note cannons turned backwards, seems they fear of something that may hit them. Good riddance.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Spooky Lynx