Ukraine General

[vilas 477]

if not shooting on Maidan:

- Yanuk loose elections,

- pro-EU guys are winning, Ukraine slowly goes to EU in dozen years,

so EU doesn't needed to start mess in Ukraine (as i said - already lost contracts and Russia doesn't buy pork , which is important market for our farmers like my relatives cause they produce pork for Russian market mostly cause Polish market doesn't need that much pork, Germany and France sell technology, cars etc. Britanny - banking system)

shooting on Maidan changed this , shooters on Maidan were ordered of course, but it is quite possible that by any of Oligarchs or Putin-side,

-has to spend lots of money on rebuilding Crimean economy and social infrastructure

c'mon, Crimea is rich touristic area, a lot people i know travelled to Crimea and were saying it is simply rich touristic area, even i planned holidays on Crimea this summer because last year i had no time, Crimea was most rich part of Ukraine, full of tourists from whole EU, the least that can be said about this part of Ukraine was poverty

...nothing. Exchange of goods with Russia is not so big as Russis-EU, so sanctions will not affect US companies very much.

and now EU armies have to buy more arms from USA, i agree, but stable situation during Maidan (if there was no shooters) would change anything for USA ? USA wants EU weaker ? i do not think , main problem for USA in future will be China and more and more growing Islam in Africa, Asia and Europe, EU is not competitor for USA to make such actions, China is danger , Islam in future is danger to USA (another wars because of terrorism but not for oil, another terror attacks, danger for Israel as partner of USA, danger of Iran as enemy of USA)

if there was no snipers on Maidan, pro-EU option would win anyway, cause Ukrainians (specially from western part of UA) seen difference in life (level of corruption as first example)

Edited May 1, 2014 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

Sometimes the easiest answer is the right one.

-Yanuk got scared and ordered his police to clear the Maidan by all means.

[mistyronin 1181]

Sometimes the easiest answer is the right one.

-Yanuk got scared and ordered his police to clear the Maidan by all means.

And when things got worse after police killed dozens of demonstrators, then they left Yanuk on his own.

With that void of power, Russia saw a good opportunity to steal some land and create some chaos.

While the EU and the US, supported the new gov, to get better trade options.

[vilas 477]

he was not ordering shooting for 4 months that Maidan was there, also he is not idiot, such action like ordering snipers (who also shoot Militia) would mean end of him

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Kiev reinstates conscription

Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country.

The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.

Ukraine blames Russia for organising the seizures of a number of offices in the east, a claim Moscow denies.

Some 40,000 Russian troops are stationed near the Ukrainian border.

- - -

he was not ordering shooting for 4 months that Maidan was there, also he is not idiot, such action like ordering snipers (who also shoot Militia) would mean end of him

Well maybe he received a call from Putin telling him to take care of the demonstrators fast. As Putin was afraid of something similar in Moscow.

[Tonci87 163]

he was not ordering shooting for 4 months that Maidan was there, also he is not idiot, such action like ordering snipers (who also shoot Militia) would mean end of him

At that time he was under very big pressure and pressure is passed downwards. It can also be that someone on his staff gave the orders, or maybe the violence simply spiraled up to the point where the police started using guns.

[mistyronin 1181]

At that time he was under very big pressure and pressure is passed downwards. It can also be that someone on his staff gave the orders, or maybe the violence simply spiraled up to the point where the police started using guns.

Well I don't know much the protocols in Ukraine, but it would be really weird if their officers used war weapons like AKs without direct Gov. order.

[vilas 477]

if not shooting - Yanuk looses elections, probably saves lot of his money and goes to Russia with all milions - shooting protesters would not benefit him no matter if Putin call him by phone , he is too selfish to risk stolen money to make stupid actions ;)

snipers could be ordered either by one of Oligarchs or Putin-side, if they were ordered by CIA, Russian intel would knew it and publish it already if they claim that US is seeing EU as danger competitor - question is how now business of oligarchs carry on, do they loose or they gain, since begining of it all Russian propaganda was working like "look nazis gonna attack Russia" , and so far only Russia took territory and Russians (ethnic) made mess there (cause Ukrainians wanted to be closer to EU standards)

btw. hostages are still inprisoned afaik and separatists who attack Militia in Ukraine always shout "fascists" "nazis" against anyone who is not pro-Russian

Edited May 1, 2014 by vilas

[akm74 1]

if not shooting - Yanuk looses elections, probably saves lot of his money and goes to Russia with all milions - shooting protesters would not benefit him no matter if Putin call him by phone , he is too selfish to risk stolen money to make stupid actions ;)

snipers could be ordered either by one of Oligarchs or Putin-side, if they were ordered by CIA, Russian intel would knew it and publish it already if they claim that US is seeing EU as danger competitor - question is how now business of oligarchs carry on, do they loose or they gain

think of it this way... from 100+ peoples killed at maidan, not a single one was from "right sector" ;-) They was very active for 2 month and magically disappear 2 hours before shooting start...:j:

[arttem 1]

Lavrov: Moscow will seek justice in the investigation of the snipers incident.

(ITAR-TASS) http://itar-tass.com/politika/1030758 8 March 2014

"The case of snipers" will not be put under the carpet, they must deal with the OSCE. This was stated by the head of Russian foreign Ministry Sergei Lavrov, when asked by ITAR-TASS.

"The investigation must take place, and the last information about the so-called "case of snipers" I think it is impossible to sweep under the carpet, " he said. - We suggested that OSCE must be engaged in a fair hearing this fact. We will achieve justice here".

On March 5 appeared on the Internet record a telephone conversation, the foreign Minister of Estonia Urmas Paet and the EU high representative Catherine Ashton:

"Now there are more and more understanding, that snipers is not from Yanukovych, seems they from new coalition," said Paet.

"It is interesting. Then you need to investigate," replied Ashton.

That tape was approved by EU officials as truthly.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lavrov: the authorities in Kiev are not interested in investigating the deaths of people on the Maidan

(ITAR-TASS) http://itar-tass.com/politika/1160173 30 of April 2014

"Unfortunately, the investigation of these crimes, including the famous "snipers moment" now deflecting from attention of people and those who came to power in Kiev, as the result of a coup, obviously don't want to establish the truth", - stated the Minister.

"Than to get involved with sanctions, it would be better for our overseas colleagues to discipline those whom they brought to power - those who declared themselves winners of the democratic revolution, and, at the same overthrowing the legitimate President, breaking the agreement of 21 February. The Parliament does not perform any of the obligations and relies on a coalition, which includes radicals, extremists, who was claimed by the European Union in 2012, when the party "Freedom" came to the Parliament, - said the head of the Russian foreign Ministry. "Now the Europeans shyly don't remember anything and cooperate ,by fact, with these people".

[ProfTournesol 956]

think of it this way... from 100+ peoples killed at maidan, not a single one was from "right sector" :

Are you sure ? Not that i'm defending those far rightists...

[arttem 1]

Are you sure ? Not that i'm defending those far rightists...

Remark. No one commander or leader (from Right Sector too). There was investigation from many people.

Let me say one thing. Each sniper. I don't know how snipers trained in France. But in Russia sniper always kill high ranked at first. And when people started to investigate videos closely they found that commanders who was leading people, lead them in to attack, go in first line, somehow wasn't killed and injured at all. Bullets from snipers was magically killing regular people from hundreds. But not leaders.

Edited May 1, 2014 by ArtTem

[akm74 1]

Are you sure ? Not that i'm defending those far rightists...

thats what "svoboda" (not sure it right name) and other pro-kiev guys keep blaming them. You can easily find it , if your search "ukraine official media" on this topic. I guess thats actually one of the reason tension between them escalating most recently. I'm afraid there is a clearly 3 sides of a conflict (most likely official kiev most weakest from 3 at this point). All 3 have their own "sponsors" with their own interests.

Edited May 1, 2014 by AKM74

[Tonci87 163]

think of it this way... from 100+ peoples killed at maidan, not a single one was from "right sector" ;-) They was very active for 2 month and magically disappear 2 hours before shooting start...:j:

Where do you get that from? As far as I know there have been a few right sector guys among the dead.

[akm74 1]

Not sure guys you so this video before. WARNING: Don't watch it if you to sensitive.

I'm asking vilas (i'm sure he know some Russian) to translate it for you. Specially what guys who filmed it sad from the very beginning. Pay attention where bullets come from 0.35.

**removed**

Edited May 2, 2014 by [FRL]Myke

[vilas 477]

tensions within Ukraine politic theatre that you talk about AKM74 are because Right Sector is party who want to imprison thieves , who wanna end oligarchy and corruption , while ruling party is Timoshenko party, other party is Yanukovich party - both corrupted, Right Sector wish to see Timoshenko in prison, thats why there are tensions, simply they are against corruption and mainstream parties are pro-oligarchs and pro-corruption

Oligarchs hated Yanuk cause he was taking their money as much as Right Sector hated Yanuk and Timoshenko and Russia , so they of course can be possible third suspected , recent voting-polls i seen on net show that right-wing will not get many votes, less than Zhyrinovsky, latest polls show that rather pro-EU and Timoshenko parties gonna win and Svoboda is 6 and RS 1%

Edited May 1, 2014 by vilas

[arttem 1]

Where do you get that from? As far as I know there have been a few right sector guys among the dead.

Sergey Didych - died, wounded in the neck by fragments of noise grenade. (Svoboda group)

Who was killed by snipers:

Chmilenko Victor Ivanovich

Tkachuk Igor Mikhaylovich

Shcherbanyuk Alexander Nikolaevich

Solchanik Bogdan Zinovyevich

Moses Vasili Mikhaylovich

Patsalyuk Vadim Nikolaevich

Digdalovich Andrey Ivanovich

Gurik Roman Igorevich

Korneev Anatoly Petrovich

Hrapachenko Alexander Vladimirovich

Blok Ivan Ivanovich

Tarasyuk Ivan Nikolaevich

Zubenko Vladislav Vitalyevich

The party of regions insists on the establishment of the High Commission of inquiry. We ask you to register the bill â„– 4468 - a draft resolution to create an interim Ñommission to investigate the circumstances of the shooting from sniper weapons protesters and law enforcement officers during the mass protests in Kiev

- the head of the faction of the "Party of regions" Oleksandr Yefremov 24 March 2014

And yes, i forget about nice videos. (AKM74 posted one of them) "No, no, point camera on them. Now will be a direct in few moments, You must film deaths, show corpses." :)

That video was produced by 3 men's. Igor Gudenko (Игорь Гуденко), Atsamaz Kochiev (Ðцамаз Кочиев) and third guy still unidentified. How they linked to Avakov (The Minister of internal Affairs of Ukraine) ask google.

Edited May 1, 2014 by ArtTem

[ProfTournesol 956]

Interesting article about the infamous green men : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27231649

"Actually, there's no such nationality as Ukrainian. That's an Austria-Hungarian deception. We're Russian. We're all Russian. And this land isn't Ukraine: it's Novorossiya - and we will defend it."

[arttem 1]

Interesting article about the infamous green men : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27231649

"Actually, there's no such nationality as Ukrainian. That's an Austria-Hungarian deception. We're Russian. We're all Russian. And this land isn't Ukraine: it's Novorossiya - and we will defend it."

Yes interesting. And it seems that BBC not reading US State Department official site. :) They live in their own reality.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

AKM74 it seems that Vilas don't wanna to translate.

From the begging:

Gudenko: - Atzik, it will be a direct connection in few minutes, you must show dead corpses mainly.

Kochiev: - Why? I will be filming how people shoted and drop down on the ground.

Gudenko: - Now, now will be a direct connection with studio and i will be speaking about ..... .....

Don't know who: - Fu..k, 1,2,3,4,5....

Don't know who: - Soon will deduce them, film!

Don't know who: - So? Do you want to go on the another side of the road?

Don't know who: - Nope, i don't want.

Gudenko speaking by phone: - Vadim... i can say to you... here... that's why it's logical.... we... 3 mens on the ground ahead of us they are 100% died... maybe one still breathe.... Atzik show them... you can....

Kochiev: - ... i see....

Gudenko speaking by phone: - yes Tolya i understood... when will be another "direct"... i... with Vadim... yes... yes... they try to drag wounded, 3 dead i see clear, maybe more, ok, sya.

Kochiev: - what?

Gudenko speaking by phone: - i'm telling death corpses on the ground... he can show them... there they are in front of us... ok... i'm in connection... they already call to me

Gudenko speaking by phone: - hello...

Maybe i've missed something, but i'm realy tired from all that shi..... :)

Edited May 1, 2014 by ArtTem

[akm74 1]

Interesting article about the infamous green men : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27231649

"Actually, there's no such nationality as Ukrainian. That's an Austria-Hungarian deception. We're Russian. We're all Russian. And this land isn't Ukraine: it's Novorossiya - and we will defend it."

i read it today in the morning, but after this part

"I went up to them," Nikolai told me. "They had modern Russian automatic rifles. I told them: I don't believe you are Ukrainians. You're from Russia. From GRU Military Intelligence. You can't cheat me. I'm from the same system."

"One of them replied: 'Ah, there's no tricking an old wolf, is there?' I'm sure they've been sent here and paid to make revolts and calamities."

i laughing so much then i skip the rest... I was not aware "financial crysis" strike UK so hard. They can't even hire/afford decent reporters anymore. Sad..

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, he's reporting what a "not pro Russian" Ukrainian said, that's all. Don't skip the rest, that's interesting IMHO.

[mistyronin 1181]

From the video AKM74, the one who was shooting, was doing it from the protestors front. From a higher position, judging for the angle.

But that doesn't give much information, snipers in roofs or high positions could be from any side.

About the Kremlin investigating that snipers, well... having read their declarations lately ( we are not gonna invade Crimea, there are no Russian soldiers in Crimea, etc. ), they have absolutely 0 credibility ( I'm not saying that other Govs may have much more, for example with the photo reports of the green men ). Probably is gonna be a product only for internal propaganda consume. I'll wait until UN investigations give some hints.

BTW if that was a Right Sector conspiracy, they would have shoot some of their members ( to show themselves as a victims and that way gain "influence and prestige" ).

I barely doubt that the snipers were acting with a "war mind", they were not looking to kill "enemy commanders", but to scare people to deter them to keep going forward.

One last point, if I was the recorder, and some sniper is shooting at people nearby, I'll keep myself safe and not try to aim the lens to the attacker.

[arttem 1]

Sergey Didych - died, wounded in the neck by fragments of noise grenade. (Svoboda group)

That video was produced by 3 men's. Igor Gudenko (Игорь Гуденко), Atsamaz Kochiev (Ðцамаз Кочиев) and third guy still unidentified. How they linked to Avakov (The Minister of internal Affairs of Ukraine) ask google.

Atsamaz Kochiev is the nephew of Avakov.

Igor Gudenko is from the Green Front, Avakov and Green front? Here is personal Avakov forum http://avakov.com.ua/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96855&sid=f77e72d6eb9f1d9d3b3aea47b28ae86c

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

IFES International Foundation for Electoral Systems (USA)

Report:

http://www.ifes.org/Content/Publications/Survey/2014/~/media/Files/Publications/Survey/2014/2014_Ukraine_Survey_Presentation_Slides_English.pdf

Edited May 1, 2014 by ArtTem

[vilas 477]

manwhile Russians all the time say about "agressive evil threatening Ukrainian nationalists" another people get shot and wounded from Russians (minority on east of Ukraine) currently reports say that now 15 people wounded in Doneck, Ukrainian soldier shot etc.

from over 2 months i hear from Russians about "agressive threatening Ukrainian nationalists" and i see another corpses and wouds of Tatars, Ukrainians shot/wounded by Russians (even if not citizens of R.F.), reminds history of XX c

Edited May 1, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

( Vice News ) Memories of Euromaidan Sniper Victims From the People Who Loved Them

Around 90 people were killed by sniper fire during the Euromaidan protests. A government inquiry in February found that Ukraine's Berkut special police were behind the killings of protesters, and 12 officers were arrested at the beginning of April, the first step toward closure for those who knew the victims.

---------- Post added at 00:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:07 ----------

More and more, Putin seems to drive Russia to another Soviet Union like autocratic regime.

( Reuters ) Moscow May Day parade lauds Putin as rebels seize more Ukraine buildings

Russia staged a huge May Day parade on Moscow's Red Square for the first time since the Soviet era on Thursday, with workers holding banners proclaiming support for President Vladimir Putin after the seizure of territory from neighboring Ukraine.

Thousands of trade unionists marched with Russian flags and those of Putin's ruling United Russia party onto the giant square beneath the Kremlin walls, past the red granite mausoleum of Soviet state founder Vladimir Lenin.

In eastern Ukraine, where a number of government buildings have been seized by armed groups seeking union with Russia, the security situation deteriorated further.

Separatists stormed the prosecutor's office in the city of Donetsk, throwing rocks, firecrackers and teargas at riot police defending officials they accused of working for the Western-backed government in Kiev.

Rebels in the city, capital of a province of about 4 million people, have declared a "People's Republic of Donetsk" and called a referendum on secession for May 11, undercutting a planned presidential election in Ukraine two weeks later.