Real Armor Mod

[sonsalt6 105]

update v0.0.5 alpha available at withSIX. Download now by clicking:

[olds 15]

Olds: Wonderful. Is it much work to modify arma3 orginal content? I use tanks quite often and its horrible to get disabled/destroyed from everything out there from the first shot.

Oh don't worry Numrollen, the vanilla tanks are still affected and will be much stronger (from the front anyway). It's just that I can't fine-tune their armor or internal hitpoints because they are binarized. The mod will still make quite a difference to vanilla gameplay.

Or is it too much work to bring out 2 versions of the mod? Would be cool if some devs like the guys from BW Mod would work with you.

I'm happy to work with anyone's mod for RAM compatibility. If you know of some modder you like, just tell them to PM me.

---------- Post added at 12:50 ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 ----------

You did not include the public bikey which serveradmins will need to allow your mod on their server. Maybe you can provide a downloadlink for it?

Duh, whoops... Let me fix that...:rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 13:11 ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 ----------

Download on front page fixed. And here it is again with the public key included. :)

>>Download 0.0.5 alpha<<:581:

[Tonci87 163]

Dude I really hope that you will team up with the guys making ACE...

[LSD_Timewarp82 21]

Great mod i´ve tried the first time today, overall feeling is good, also i am a little confused about the amount of DAGR-rockets(from the AH-99 Chopper) the ZSU can manage, i think i´ve hit the tank with 6 rockets, he was still rollin^^

Is that correct that it´s like that?

[PVT Watt.J 14]

Great mod i´ve tried the first time today, overall feeling is good, also i am a little confused about the amount of DAGR-rockets(from the AH-99 Chopper) the ZSU can manage, i think i´ve hit the tank with 6 rockets, he was still rollin^^

Is that correct that it´s like that?

I'm not an expert on DAGRs irl, but I do believe they are very lightweight compared to proper ATGMs like the Hellfire. As far as I can tell, they are more about bringing Hellfire-level precision to Hyrda-type rockets rather than a replacement for true ATGMs. Assuming they do pack HEAT (I'm not sure they even do), I don't imagine they would do anything against proper tanks like the T-100 and even the ZSU I imagine would be able to take a beating from them.

Question for Olds:

Any idea on how this mod will interact with AT weapon mods? Will something like the Hellfire from the Arma 2 helicopter port work passably with this mod?

[heavygunner 179]

Dude I really hope that you will team up with the guys making ACE...

Ha that would be super awesome.

[olds 15]

Great mod i´ve tried the first time today, overall feeling is good, also i am a little confused about the amount of DAGR-rockets(from the AH-99 Chopper) the ZSU can manage, i think i´ve hit the tank with 6 rockets, he was still rollin^^

Is that correct that it´s like that?

No, it should be using M_PG_AT ammo which gives around 270mm RHA penetration... (~13 complete ZSU penetrations ).

Gee, I hope its not a P3D thing... you see, I have a sneaking suspicion several vehicles have less-than-great internal hitpoint structures because BIS generally relies on global hit points to kill things.

I'll check it out and see if I can figure out what's going on. Thanks LSD... (:pet3:)

Edited March 19, 2014 by Olds

[PVT Watt.J 14]

No, it should be using M_PG_AT ammo which gives around 270mm RHA penetration... should be enough to blast about 13 ZSU's in a row (~13 complete ZSU penetrations ).

Out of curiosity, is it given this based on speculation about the real DAGR or based on balancing the AH-99 so that it is effective at AT?

[olds 15]

I'm not an expert on DAGRs irl, but I do believe they are very lightweight compared to proper ATGMs like the Hellfire. As far as I can tell, they are more about bringing Hellfire-level precision to Hyrda-type rockets rather than a replacement for true ATGMs. Assuming they do pack HEAT (I'm not sure they even do), I don't imagine they would do anything against proper tanks like the T-100 and even the ZSU I imagine would be able to take a beating from them.

Yeah, they are (supposedly) semi-guided Hydra-70 rockets. I gave them the penetration of an earlier HEAT variant (M247) for the Hydra b/c that seemed to be what BIS was going for (don't get me started on the problems of interpreting the "future" weaponry... I just wanted to make A2 ports!:p). The current DAGR warhead is apparently the M151 - which is an HE-FRAG and would be pretty silly to use against tanks. Although just about anything would punch thru a ZSU's 10-15mm armor. IMO, 270mm is not terrible against tank top armor (assuming no ERA), but I agree it's useless from the front. Even at their best, these are no Hellfires.

Question for Olds:

Any idea on how this mod will interact with AT weapon mods? Will something like the Hellfire from the Arma 2 helicopter port work passably with this mod?

While custom Shells and Bullets will work fine, custom Missiles & Rockets will be near useless. So the mod maker would need to PM me for assistance. For what it's worth, I plan to revise almost all Arma 2 era weapons for my NATO-Pact mod - via CUP as much as possible. Anyway, I'm always happy to help other modders make a RAM variant if they want.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Olds

[LSD_Timewarp82 21]

This is no joke now: 5 fully equipped Apache fires whole arsenal on a T-100 = he was still active and not destroyed. I´ve seen with own eyes, i was one of the Pilots

[Damian90 697]

RAM use also forces players to use tactis (also as heli pilots and gunners). Allways attack tanks from sides or rear if possible. Also top and belly armor is weaker. Front armor engagements should be avoided as front armor is very very tough.

[bakerman 247]

Unless you have some way to do a top-attack with an AGM.

[PVT Watt.J 14]

*Cough*

[LSD_Timewarp82 21]

Guys, i have over 2000 hours in Arma3 now and i know about weaker zones on armored vehicles, i was in Army too^^

In my mentioned situation the Enemy Tank was stuck on a wall (thx to the superb AI, hahahaha) that means 1 Apache free vision on the weakspot, i myself fired 2/2 clear hits AGM´s and ~350 hits with the 20mm shells. As the Slammer arrived he need 4 Shots including to the Heli hits...

I just say thats "propably" an error, i´ll wait for the Authors conclusion :p

[PVT Watt.J 14]

Guys, i have over 2000 hours in Arma3 now and i know about weaker zones on armored vehicles, i was in Army too^^

In my mentioned situation the Enemy Tank was stuck on a wall (thx to the superb AI, hahahaha) that means 1 Apache free vision on the weakspot, i myself fired 2/2 clear hits AGM´s and ~350 hits with the 20mm shells. As the Slammer arrived he need 4 Shots including to the Heli hits...

I just say thats "propably" an error, i´ll wait for the Authors conclusion :p

I don't think any of the past few comments were directed towards you.

Author already confirmed that modded missiles will not work unless a compatibility patch is applied, so Apache/Hellfire do not currently work with this.

[LSD_Timewarp82 21]

Yeah i know mate, my last posting was a try to be sarcastic. ^^ Fail.

[olds 15]

Great mod i´ve tried the first time today, overall feeling is good, also i am a little confused about the amount of DAGR-rockets(from the AH-99 Chopper) the ZSU can manage, i think i´ve hit the tank with 6 rockets, he was still rollin^^

Ok-a-a-a-y. So here's what I've found so far:

• The DAGR's work more or less as planned, b-u-u-u-u-t...
  
• BIS appears to have made top armor awfully thick across the board for AFV's (realistic values would be on the order of 20-40mm... and that's for tanks!).
  
• The ZSU-39 appears to be magnificently over-armored (I'd expect values around 10mm, not enough armor to take a tank sabot round or two...).

Here we run into the limitations of not being able to tweak armor values for vanilla vehicles. I can't fault BIS for not anticipating our mod--they didn't have to model realistic armor for their hitpoint system to work, and so they generally didn't.:p

I can--and probably should--do some workarounds to make the ZSU more vulnerable. It is a bit "hacky" though, sigh. All I can say is I expect much more realistic results from new/ported vehicles with proper real-life armor values. Yeah, kind of an unsatisfactory answer I know...

I'll certainly see what I can do for the next release. And thanks for the heads up on the ZSU--it was not in my stable of target range vehicles!

------Update-------

• It's not that the AA APC's have better armor than their APC counterparts, it's config & hitpoint vertex issuesthat seem to be the source of most of the problems
  
• For example, the giant AA turrets are treated like the tiny remote ones on the APC variants.
  

Luckily this should be mostly fixable. I can't really blame BIS, these weird hit location & armor issues are only really exposed by the mod. They do make it clear what to avoid when modeling new vehicles however!

Edited March 21, 2014 by Olds

[PVT Watt.J 14]

I can--and probably should--do some workarounds to make the ZSU more vulnerable. It is a bit "hacky" though, sigh. All I can say is I expect much more realistic results from new/ported vehicles with proper real-life armor values. Yeah, kind of an unsatisfactory answer I know...

I'm happy with hacky for the BIS vehicles as long as it gets balanced.

For the mods, I think the most important thing is the strategy for inclusion. Asking modders to do compatibility patches often moves at glacial speeds. It's often far far more successful to ask for the modder's permission to do the patching yourself. Lukip has accomplished a ton here in terms of taking the best of JSRS sounds and ammo types and bringing them to various weapon mods.

Here are some mods that could definitely use compatibility:

-Arma 2 Helicopter Port

-A10 C

-Bundeswehr mod

-R3F French Weapons

-Aggressors mod

-NATO SF

[bakerman 247]

For the mods, I think the most important thing is the strategy for inclusion. Asking modders to do compatibility patches often moves at glacial speeds. It's often far far more successful to ask for the modder's permission to do the patching yourself.

Indeed and thank you for the list.

Compatibility is always on my mind, getting closer to the beta release I will include class names for popular mods and A2 content.

[Tonci87 163]

OOOKKK. So here's what I've found so far:

• The DAGR's work more or less as planned, b-u-u-u-u-t...
  
• BIS appears to have made top armor awfully thick across the board for AFV's (realistic values would be on the order of 20-40mm... and that's for tanks!).
  
• The ZSU-39 appears to be magnificently over-armored (I'd expect values around 10mm, not enough armor to take a tank sabot round or two...).

Here we run into the limitations of not being able to tweak armor values for vanilla vehicles. I can't fault BIS for not anticipating my mod--they didn't have to model realistic armor for their hitpoint system to work, and so they generally didn't.:p (BTW, I get mediocre results for DAGR's vs. tanks, somewhat better results vs. most APCs...but not the ZSU-39 obviously :)).

I can--and probably should--do some workarounds to make the ZSU more vulnerable. It is a bit "hacky" though, sigh. All I can say is I expect much more realistic results from new/ported vehicles with proper real-life armor values. Yeah, kind of an unsatisfactory answer I know...

I'll certainly see what I can do for the next release. And thanks for the heads up on the ZSU--it was not in my stable of target range vehicles!

Isn´t there any chance to get permission from BIS to get the files, make adjustments and then use them with a replacement config so that vanilla vehicels get replaced by your stuff every time they are used?

[olds 15]

I'm happy with hacky for the BIS vehicles as long as it gets balanced.

For the mods, I think the most important thing is the strategy for inclusion. Asking modders to do compatibility patches often moves at glacial speeds. It's often far far more successful to ask for the modder's permission to do the patching yourself. Lukip has accomplished a ton here in terms of taking the best of JSRS sounds and ammo types and bringing them to various weapon mods.

Mmm, good points (and ditto thx for references)! I would be happy to seek permission, though perhaps I'll seek for some help in the actual config-work. If the authors can't do it (but give permission), perhaps a fan of each mod would chip in if I coached. My personal desires are focused on moving on to A2 via CUP ASAP, b/c it's where I hope the biggest bang for the buck will be, ultimately. (And it also gets me closer to my NATO-Pact mod).

IMHO, having modders get on board with CUP instead of the (understandable) mishmash we have currently is very important for integrating things like RAM, for vastly improving compatibility between components, and for making multiplayer much smoother. It's going to be work enough keeping up with BIS' updates let alone a dozen other mods. So there's my plug/rant.

:lecture:

But none of that is to refute your point. As RAM gets cleaned up, I vow to devote more thought to making integration easier--both with CUP and non-CUP mods. I'm know Bakerman (and prolly kju et all) have some ideas in that regard!:)

---------- Post added at 13:56 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------

Isn´t there any chance to get permission from BIS to get the files, make adjustments and then use them with a replacement config so that vanilla vehicels get replaced by your stuff every time they are used?

I hear you Tonci, but so far the answer from BIS has been no. If CUP continues to grow, my hunch is that hardcore types will gravitate to the RAM version of that. I guess that would look like RAM + AiA SA. Edited March 20, 2014 by Olds

[kgino1045 12]

Do you plan with choppers? what i mean it seems choppers are so weak. i know it's a very very vulnerable vehicle but it's too weak i think

[Tonci87 163]

Well there is indeed a problem with the AA vehicels. I went up against a US Cheetah with a Kajman. Its heavy ATGMs weren´t able to destroy the AA, even when shooting all missiles into his side.

[izaiak 1]

@olds : thank for your mod.

Why not trying to speak with dev, to integrate your mod to the vanilla game ? It will increase the realism and all player will be happy. It could be a good deal.

[olds 15]

I updated the earlier post with an explanation of why we're having trouble with AA vehicles.

AA vehicles exacerbate the wonky hit location issues for a variety of complex reasons. This will be fairly fixable I think with a bunch of config edits.