Patriotism

[Sam Samson 0]

seems like a lot of folks are out knocking the US for patriotism these days. maybe they mistake patriotism for nationalism.

I think patriotism and nationalism are not the same.

nationalism is just plain foolish.

why would any nation in and of itself be better than any other one? the blood of all runs but red. a canadian is not better than a yank who happens to have been born across the border. and a frenchman is not by some mysterial act of nature intrinsically better than a german.

what makes any nation great is the rule of sensible law, rulers installed by the people that have their eye on the benefit of the people. (that have at least their mind on what they think that is.)

what makes a nation great are the principles it was founded on and the institutions founded upon those principles.

ultimately that seems to have a lot to do with religion, since your principles spring from your faith, no matter what that would be in particular. (even the credo in science would belong under that heading, as it formulates principles too).

so, is the US wrong to be patriots of their nation? are their institutions and founding principles moronic enough to warrant perpetual knocking?

Is patriotic synonymous with idiotic?

whaddayathink?

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0]

Patriotism is natural. Same way you love the home team, you love your home country.

[Paratrooper 0]

Idiotism?

Someone once said: Patriotism is desirable, nationalism is distasteful. I agree.

I am a patriot and I am not ashamed to say so. I don't knock American patriotism just the mentality that so often goes with it: "America right or wrong".

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

What da ye mean by yank? I aint no yank, I hate that term.

Patriotism is a great thing, and it makes me mad when people can not aprecciate the good conditions they have. Ahhh benn a while since I have seen ya post residuum, nice to hear from you again, I am sure ya think the same of me.  

[Sam Samson 0]

da duke's out whistlin' the dixie!

'preciate the moosic.

***goes off whistlin' "mmmdy doodle went to town, riding on a pony, stuck a feather in his hat ..."***

[Othin 0]

I agree with you Sam. Nationalism is foolish and it is something that we should leave in the 20th century. As should regionalism.

Patriotism on the other hand, is just as residuum said, it's just like loving your home team. I see nothing wrong with Patriotism and I think it can actually be a good thing.

Though there is a type of "Super Patriots" who are closer to Nationalists and that's bad. If any of you have read the Out of the Ashes series you'll know what I'm talking about.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ Sep. 01 2002,22:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree with you Sam.  Nationalism is foolish and it is something that we should leave in the 20th century.  As should regionalism.

Patriotism on the other hand, is just as residuum said, it's just like loving your home team.  I see nothing wrong with Patriotism and I think it can actually be a good thing.

Though there is a type of "Super Patriots" who are closer to Nationalists and that's bad.  If any of you have read the Out of the Ashes series you'll know what I'm talking about.<span id='postcolor'>

Well if you are going to say that how do you define nationalism? Perhaps we should define Patriotism and Nationalism first.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what makes a nation great are the principles it was founded on and the institutions founded upon those principles.<span id='postcolor'>

not sufficient. it should be added that such priniciple is applied equal in every stance.

here's Ralph's glue-sucking-definition

patriotism: love of one's country

nationalsim: blind love of one's country that is based on misunderstanding.

patriotism is good. however, the thin line btw patriotism and nationalism is way thin and can be manipulated.

for example, taking your gun and defend from enemies like French Resisance or Nogova's Resistance is work of patriotism.

nationalism, however is the key ingredient leading to flamewars. like saying 'US is the best', 'France is the best' 'Germany is the best', 'UK is the best' and so on. most of these claims are without solid argument or merit. just a simple question of, "what do you mean by the best?" usually reveals how misinformed or uninformed nationalists are.

the reason why so many Americans get flamed here is because they know little about international news. Even when there are international news, it's because of 1.related to US, 2.local news has slow domestic news day.

so unless you try to go out and read other papers, you'll end up being a misinformed patriot. unfortunately, Us media does not have enough to cover world, since there are plenty of domestic stories to cover. so many americans are not keen on what happens in other world.

[Guest]

As I see it the big problem is that the vast majority of so called 'Patriots' never put their money where their mouth is.

Sure, talk is cheap and it is very easy to cram your 'love for your country' down other peoples throats. For every aspiring patriot out there I would like you to ask yourself what you have done for your country for it to be so great?

This goes for every country, not just the US. The reason why the US is so often criticized for that is because you have the largest amount flag waving morons/capita while having record low participation in the elections.

[Paratrooper 0]

The oxford dictionary defines Patriotism as a zeal for a countries prosperity freedom and rights.

It defines nationalism as patriotic feeling, principles or efforts, or a policy of national independance.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Sep. 01 2002,23:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As I see it the big problem is that the vast majority of so called 'Patriots' never put their money where their mouth is.

Sure, talk is cheap and it is very easy to cram your 'love for your country' down other peoples throats. For every aspiring patriot out there I would like you to ask yourself what you have done for your country for it to be so great?

This goes for every country, not just the US. The reason why the US is so often criticized for that is because you have the largest amount flag waving morons/capita while having record low participation in the elections.<span id='postcolor'>

I disagree with the notion that one has to do something for the country to be able to love it and want what is best for it. Of course I think people should do things for their country if they really love it, service in the army for example, it may only be for a few years or even just the TAs.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Sep. 01 2002,23:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This goes for every country, not just the US. The reason why the US is so often criticized for that is because you have the largest amount flag waving morons/capita while having record low participation in the elections.<span id='postcolor'>

not really...before 9-11, if you displayed the old Red White and Blue in your living room, ppl thought you were somewhere btw a nut and patriotic.

only after 9-11 did it came to be acceptable to fly the Stars and Stripes, but after less than 6 months, it became a fab, not a true patriotism. I saw a lot of flags loitering on the ground, meaning that ppl were just doing it, and giving not much thought about it.

if US is criticized, it would be because 1. it's the biggest active country in international arena(thus makes actions that get criticized a lot). 2. lack of place to blame after the cold war.

if you want to talk about low participation, talk about Switzerland...40 percent...i think US was 60 percent in last election.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Sep. 01 2002,23:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if you want to talk about low participation, talk about Switzerland...40 percent...i think US was 60 percent in last election.<span id='postcolor'>

I would be very wary of lauding American politics over Switzerland's!

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Sep. 01 2002,17:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">not really...before 9-11, if you displayed the old Red White and Blue in your living room, ppl thought you were somewhere btw a nut and patriotic.<span id='postcolor'>

It's true, actually one of my friends living in Canada always had T-shirts with USA flags and so on, while studying and being supported here! And yes I think he is completely screwed up when it comes to nations (never knows a thing about politics and doesn't watch any news)... so

[Col. Kurtz 0]

I'll give you MY reason why i think the US gets knocked so much. It is as Paratrooper/Artillery Gunner said. Since the US likes to be an active part in world politics, people get a little pissed when it comes across that American is acting like the world police. There is nothing wrong with patriotism as long as you are not blinded by it. Seee that your country CAN do wrong, and that the current government can change a lot about your country. You can not dig your feet in and say 'no matter what, I love my country and goverment'

[Aculaud 0]

If my country can create conditions under which i can live however i need to be happy, then i love my country.

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 01 2002,23:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Sep. 01 2002,23:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As I see it the big problem is that the vast majority of so called 'Patriots' never put their money where their mouth is.

Sure, talk is cheap and it is very easy to cram your 'love for your country' down other peoples throats. For every aspiring patriot out there I would like you to ask yourself what you have done for your country for it to be so great?

This goes for every country, not just the US. The reason why the US is so often criticized for that is because you have the largest amount flag waving morons/capita while having record low participation in the elections.<span id='postcolor'>

I disagree with the notion that one has to do something for the country to be able to love it and want what is best for it. Of course I think people should do things for their country if they really love it, service in the army for example, it may only be for a few years or even just the TAs.<span id='postcolor'>

nope,its a job,unless of course an invading force attack but more or less ur just on missions from the head guys.

[SirLoins 0]

1st of all, hi to you all.

After reading many, many post on this forum, I find the amount of critisizm toward the USA alarming.

I am American. I am very patriotic. Just because the world saw the amount of flag wavers after 9-11 come out of the woodwork, doesn't mean that we aren't patriotic at other times. That's the way we are. Do you all in other countries have a need to show your patriotism, if so, how do you do it?

Flag waving, military service, public service? I for one would like to learn.

We may seem placid on the surface, but when we are viciously attacked as on 9-11......watch out.

The replies about the percentage of voters have absolutely nothing to do with patriotism. You see, that's one thing about living in a free society, you have the right to be an idiot. I for one vote for everything from Mayor to President.

You all must realize, being the USA isn't an easy job. I don't mean that in a pompus way either. I don't know if any elected president could ever please all the people of the world. That would be impossible.

We receive more critisizm from other countries because we do more for the world than the world combined does for us. I don't mean to imply that other countries don't help out, but I can't think of any that does as much as the United States. We don't ask for much in return, maybe a thank you once in a while would be in order, instead of consitant second guessing about USA policy. We can't please everyone.

I look forward to discussions with all of you.

Thanks

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ Sep. 02 2002,07:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We receive more critisizm from other countries because we do more for the world than the world combined does for us.  I don't mean to imply that other countries don't help out, but I can't think of any that does as much as the United States.  We don't ask for much in return, maybe a thank you once in a while would be in order, instead of consitant second guessing about USA policy.  We can't please everyone.<span id='postcolor'>

welcome to forum sirloin steak..i mean sirloins (sorry had one for dinner)

maybe you don't want to know, but US's action in international community is not that all righteous.

sure US sends a lot of forces and does a lot of things, but it usually brings good AND bad things. for example, Guam never had snakes until US came in.

US also does not pay 25million(or was it 250) to keep UN running. for god sakes, if we are one of 5 UN council, pay the damn price.

and when US does take a place on foreign soil, it creates problem. remember that Okinawan rape? don't call it an isolated incident. similar things happen in other US bases around the world. just that they are not treated enough. it's one thing to have a foreign gov't willing to prosecute US soldiers, but it's another thing to have US teach its soldiers that crime on other nationals is also unacceptable.

there are a lot of countries that thank US intervention. however, there are also a lot more who doesn't want it.

US's policy is very dependent upon president. Clinton did fine job of trying to stay neutral and go synchronized with rest of the world. however, Bush's lack of foreign policy is not.

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Sep. 02 2002,07:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ Sep. 02 2002,07:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We receive more critisizm from other countries because we do more for the world than the world combined does for us.  I don't mean to imply that other countries don't help out, but I can't think of any that does as much as the United States.  We don't ask for much in return, maybe a thank you once in a while would be in order, instead of consitant second guessing about USA policy.  We can't please everyone.<span id='postcolor'>

welcome to forum sirloin steak..i mean sirloins    (sorry had one for dinner)

maybe you don't want to know, but US's action in international community is not that all righteous.

sure US sends a lot of forces and does a lot of things, but it usually brings good AND bad things. for example, Guam never had snakes until US came in.

US also does not pay 25million(or was it 250) to keep UN running. for god sakes, if we are one of 5 UN council, pay the damn price.

and when US does take a place on foreign soil, it creates problem. remember that Okinawan rape? don't call it an isolated incident. similar things happen in other US bases around the world. just that they are not treated enough. it's one thing to have a foreign gov't willing to prosecute US soldiers, but it's another thing to have US teach its soldiers that crime on other nationals is also unacceptable.

there are a lot of countries that thank US intervention. however, there are also a lot more who doesn't want it.

US's policy is very dependent upon president. Clinton did fine job of trying to stay neutral and go synchronized with rest of the world. however, Bush's lack of foreign policy is not.<span id='postcolor'>

Ralph, We host the UN, Isn't that enough? I mean, we provide a lot for the world. We spent enough on the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe, now its time for the Euros to pay for their own damn UN. I say we just get out of it and let them deal with it. It won't be long before they are complaining that we aren't there to help them or how we aren't playing policeman and cleaning up shit that their miserable little country couldn't deal with in a decade. It will just reveal their hipocrisy.

I remember when Tex refered to "3rd World Quarterbacking". His example was us getting kicked out of the Human Rights Council in favor of SUDAN. Its these 3rd world nations that piss me off. They seem to be bent on fucking us over at every opportunity. I say screw 'em and let them starve.

Regarding the Rapes at US bases. I don't see why that is so hard to believe. What do you expect when you have thousands of testosterone charged young men running around screaming "hooah" when there are no women on base? They go off base and do their male animalistic things, such as sex. Voluntary or Involuntary. I doubt there is much the Army or Marines or anyone for that matter, could do to fix that.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ralph, We host the UN, Isn't that enough? I mean, we provide a lot for the world. We spent enough on the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe, now its time for the Euros to pay for their own damn UN. I say we just get out of it and let them deal with it. It won't be long before they are complaining that we aren't there to help them or how we aren't playing policeman and cleaning up shit that their miserable little country couldn't deal with in a decade. It will just reveal their hipocrisy. <span id='postcolor'>

i knew someone would say that. well, for all i care, UN can move to Switzerland. it is only because that US won WW2 and had only intact infrastructure that UN was based in NY.

as we always say in economics, altruistic reasons can be claims for one's greed. MArshal plan was executed as a defense mechanism for spread of communism. the underlying idea was that more poverty European nations have, the more chance of Communism spreading. thus helping europe was motivated from fear of loosing grounds, not an altruistic reason. and europes pay UN fee on time AFAIK.

and yes, as you said, i'd also like to see US pull out from ALL international arena. then the rest of the world will realize how much of difference US's presence makes.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its these 3rd world nations that piss me off. They seem to be bent on fucking us over at every opportunity. I say screw 'em and let them starve<span id='postcolor'>

and for follow up, US got the seat back. the only thing they can do is try to piss us off. that's it. that't only thing they can do. and personally, as mentioned above, i'd love to see US pulling out too.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Regarding the Rapes at US bases. I don't see why that is so hard to believe. What do you expect when you have thousands of testosterone charged young men running around screaming "hooah" when there are no women on base? They go off base and do their male animalistic things, such as sex. Voluntary or Involuntary. I doubt there is much the Army or Marines or anyone for that matter, could do to fix that.<span id='postcolor'>

teaching them that they will be dealt with maximum sentence will do. so yes, testosterone charged men are waiting timebomb. but can you try to evade that with such arguments? hardly. in that manner, testosterone charged Serbs were ok to rape Albanian women. What do you expect when you have thousands of testosterone charged young men running around screaming whatever they scream in serbian when there are no enjoyable women?

see the point?

just becuase you have your prick standing out, doesn't mean you can go around and fuck and ask for excuse.

the problem with US bases abroad is that US base consistently protected its soldier. not even given a chance to see if he is guilty or not. in Okinawan rape case, the soldiers were turned over only after whole JPN started to get pissed off at US. should US be a fair person, it would not be hesiatnt to prosecute its own soldier for crime, whether it is light or not. however, if the case is capable of getting swept under the rug, they've been choosing to do so.

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Regarding the Rapes at US bases. I don't see why that is so hard to believe. What do you expect when you have thousands of testosterone charged young men running around screaming "hooah" when there are no women on base? They go off base and do their male animalistic things, such as sex. Voluntary or Involuntary. I doubt there is much the Army or Marines or anyone for that matter, could do to fix that.

<span id='postcolor'>

Remember that rape has pretty much nothing to do with sex.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 01 2002,22:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">seems like a lot of folks are out knocking the US for patriotism these days. maybe they mistake patriotism for nationalism.

I think patriotism and nationalism are not the same.

nationalism is just plain foolish.

why would any nation in and of itself be better than any other one? the blood of all runs but red. a canadian is not better than a yank who happens to have been born across the border. and a frenchman is not by some mysterial act of nature intrinsically better than a german.

what makes any nation great is the rule of sensible law, rulers installed by the people that have their eye on the benefit of the people. (that have at least their mind on what they think that is.)

what makes a nation great are the principles it was founded on and the institutions founded upon those principles.

ultimately that seems to have a lot to do with religion, since your principles spring from your faith, no matter what that would be in particular. (even the credo in science would belong under that heading, as it formulates principles too).

so, is the US wrong to be patriots of their nation? are their institutions and founding principles moronic enough to warrant perpetual knocking?

Is patriotic synonymous with idiotic?

whaddayathink?

<span id='postcolor'>

You are wrong, nationalism have nothing to do with race and color. It has to do with culture and laws.

[R. Gerschwarzenge 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ Sep. 02 2002,13:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Regarding the Rapes at US bases. I don't see why that is so hard to believe. What do you expect when you have thousands of testosterone charged young men running around screaming "hooah" when there are no women on base? They go off base and do their male animalistic things, such as sex. Voluntary or Involuntary. I doubt there is much the Army or Marines or anyone for that matter, could do to fix that.

<span id='postcolor'>

Remember that rape has pretty much nothing to do with sex.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep. If there are no women around, men just start to wank some more or have sex with other men.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its these 3rd world nations that piss me off. They seem to be bent on fucking us over at every opportunity. I say screw 'em and let them starve<span id='postcolor'>

I dont hope every Americans think like this. How can you think like this, when you sit in you room with your computer and you probably have a fridge full of food downstares? Its humans god damnit, not just some "3rd-world greedy bastards", that want everything for themselves..... like you.

Thinking like that makes you no better than the terrorists that is burning their farmers fields.