Second russian helicopter downed by missile

[Mister Frag 0]

From http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-08-31-russia-chechnya_x.htm

Second Russian helicopter downed by missile

VLADIKAVKAZ, Russia (AP) — A Russian helicopter was downed by a missile in Chechnya on Saturday, killing two, officials said. The crash came less than two weeks after a transport helicopter was brought down by a missile in the deadliest surface-to-air attack against Russian forces fighting Chechen rebels.

The Mi-24 helicopter was shot down by a missile near the village of Meskety in southeastern Chechnya, a Defense Ministry spokesman told The Associated Press. It was one of two Mi-24 combat helicopters flying with an Mi-8 transport helicopter, he said. The helicopter's two pilots were killed, he said.

Nikolai Deryabin, the ministry's chief spokesman, told the Interfax news agency that the two Mi-24's were accompanying the Mi-8 as it made food deliveries to units operating in mountainous parts of Chechnya.

On Aug. 19, a huge Mi-26 transport helicopter crashed on its way to the military headquarters in Khankala, Chechnya, killing 118. On Friday, Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said there were "no doubts" a missile caused the fiery crash. That crash was the worst military aviation catastrophe in Russian history and the largest single loss of life among the troops fighting in Chechnya.

Ivanov on Friday also lay blame on Defense Ministry personnel who prepared the flight, saying it was "absolutely clear" they "committed the most severe violations of orders and regulatory documents." He accused the officers of "sloppiness, slackness, irresponsibility and negligence," and promised they would be punished, but did not elaborate.

Meanwhile, Russian forces killed three Chechen rebels using special equipment designed to explode remote-controlled land mines as they are being set, a news agency reported Saturday.

Citing security officials in Grozny, the Chechen capital, the ITAR-Tass news agency said that three rebels were killed over the past 24 hours using the equipment, which is dubbed "Anti-Terrorist."

Remote-controlled mines set by rebels are responsible for many of the daily casualties among Russian forces in Chechnya. Military officials have said the specially developed Anti-Terrorist equipment would help combat this rebel tactic but have given no details about how it works.

On Friday, a mine killed two riot police officers in a military truck and wounded five near the village of Valerik in the Urus-Martan district, an official in the Moscow-appointed Chechen administration said.

The Anti-Terrorist device was used in the Shali district, ITAR-Tass said. The device caused the remote-controlled mines to detonate immediately, killing each of the rebels. The explosion was so powerful that it was impossible to identify the rebels, the agency said.

Also in the Shali district, rebels clashed with riot police near the village of Avtury, killing one and wounding one, the administration official said on condition of anonymity.

Elsewhere in Chechnya, rebels fired on Russian positions 10 times in the past 24 hours, killing four and wounding three.

Two servicemen were killed when their jeep came under rebel fire in the village of Tsai-Vedeno, the official said.

About 120 people were detained in security sweeps in the Urus-Martan and Achkoi-Martan districts and in the outskirts of Grozny, the official said.

The current conflict in Chechnya began nearly three years ago after a period of de facto independence following a 1994-96 war. Russian troops returned to the region after rebels based in Chechnya raided a neighboring Russian region. Russian officials also blamed the rebels for a series of apartment house bombings that killed more than 300 people in three cities.

[ralphwiggum 6]

hhmm..Al Qaeda in Chechen?

kinda wierd since Chechen rebels were quiet for a few months.

[Chill 0]

Russia should pulll out soon! This war will go on untill Chechnya get their freedom!

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Chechnya is sort of Russias modern day Palestine Vs. Israel or more precsise, like their war against Afghnaistan in the 80's. They will try and stay becuase they dont want to give the land up, and the rebels will fight until they are indepentdant. Russia will not allow this becuase if they leave it, then it becomes another haven for terrorists since it has a large Muslim population. Al Queda is bound to be there aong with every other Muslim terrorist group that can get down there. Its another war of wrong vs. wrong.

[LauryThorn 0]

I really think that Russians should retreat.

No one is benefiting from this war. Young boys who have just

learned how to fire a weapon, are sent there just to die.

The question is, why Russia won't stop this war, or why they started it in the

first place.

I think that the answer is: OIL.

[cam0flage 0]

Military analysis network has a lot of facts about the Chechnya conflict. Worth checking out if interested.

It's sad that western countries really haven't done anything to pressure russians about human rights and the refugee problem.

// cam0flage

[HellToupee 0]

um not all muslim ppl r terrorists, im pretty sure sum of my friends arnt terrorists, there r even christian terrorists etc so dont assume that cos its a muslim country there terrorists thats jus bull properganda.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

I never claimed that all Muslim people are terrorists. There are a lot of Muslims in the part of Auystralia I live in, and I havent been blown up yet. You have to admit that there are quite a few muslim terrorists in Chechnya. If the Russian Goverment were smart, they would leave. Even if they conquered the country, due to the methods they would have to use, there would be tons of embargos by western countries and no one would bu their oil.

[Paratrooper 0]

An interesring question is how can Russia win?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Where do they get the money from? I mean such an AA launcher isnt realy cheap. On the other hand where else could you get a think like this on the black-market if not in Russia?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Sep. 01 2002,14:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where do they get the money from? I mean such an AA launcher isnt realy cheap. On the other hand where else could you get a think like this on the black-market if not in Russia?<span id='postcolor'>

They take what they can from Russian troops.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 01 2002,14:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Sep. 01 2002,14:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where do they get the money from? I mean such an AA launcher isnt realy cheap. On the other hand where else could you get a think like this on the black-market if not in Russia?<span id='postcolor'>

They take what they can from Russian troops.<span id='postcolor'>

...........

the chechens don't have any helicopter nor fixed wing aircraft that would need to be shot down .......... , they don't get these weapons from the captured russian army stocks since the russians don't use them in chechnya since they don't need them

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Sep. 01 2002,14:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 01 2002,14:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Sep. 01 2002,14:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where do they get the money from? I mean such an AA launcher isnt realy cheap. On the other hand where else could you get a think like this on the black-market if not in Russia?<span id='postcolor'>

They take what they can from Russian troops.<span id='postcolor'>

...........

the chechens don't have any helicopter nor fixed wing aircraft that would need to be shot down .......... , they don't get these weapons from the captured russian army stocks since the russians don't use them in chechnya since they don't need them<span id='postcolor'>

Logical, they must come through the black market then.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 01 2002,15:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Sep. 01 2002,14:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where do they get the money from? I mean such an AA launcher isnt realy cheap. On the other hand where else could you get a think like this on the black-market if not in Russia?<span id='postcolor'>

They take what they can from Russian troops.<span id='postcolor'>

Sometimes for cash. This directly relates to the above points.

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 01 2002,05:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">An interesring question is how can Russia win?<span id='postcolor'>

They can't. They are sending conscripts (mostly) who just want to get through their military service without getting blown up to fight against a local people that are fighting for their independence and own way of life.

If the Chechens were to mass in one area and present a nice fat target to the Russians, they would be annihilated.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Aug. 31 2002,15:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where do they get the money from? I mean such an AA launcher isnt realy cheap. On the other hand where else could you get a think like this on the black-market if not in Russia?<span id='postcolor'>

Albert, i've seen Panzerfausts, bazookas, AA rocketlaunchers, AA guns, heavy machine guns, AT guns, AT rocketlaunchers, mortars, etc for sale here

[red oct 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Sep. 01 2002,16:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Aug. 31 2002,15:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Where do they get the money from? I mean such an AA launcher isnt realy cheap. On the other hand where else could you get a think like this on the black-market if not in Russia?<span id='postcolor'>

Albert, i've seen Panzerfausts, bazookas, AA rocketlaunchers, AA guns, heavy machine guns, AT guns, AT rocketlaunchers, mortars, etc for sale here <span id='postcolor'>

they were probaly demiliterized, Out Door Army Navy Stores around my area have non functional hand gernades for $5.00. back on topic, why exactly should the russians fall back and leave the war, if anything more countries should help the russians.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Sep. 01 2002,17:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">they were probaly demiliterized, Out Door Army Navy Stores around my area have non functional hand gernades for $5.00. back on topic, why exactly should the russians fall back and leave the war, if anything more countries should help the russians.<span id='postcolor'>

Why?

Because the people of the area want to form their own government. It's been done by a lot of former republics, but because of oil interests the Russians ont want to let them go. This isnt about terrorism, this is about civil war. Its sad that the Russians have decided to paint it as a war on terror, because that is hardly what it is.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Sep. 01 2002,20:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Sep. 01 2002,176)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">they were probaly demiliterized, Out Door Army Navy Stores around my area have non functional hand gernades for $5.00. back on topic, why exactly should the russians fall back and leave the war, if anything more countries should help the russians.<span id='postcolor'>

Why?

Because the people of the area want to form their own government.  It's been done by a lot of former republics, but because of oil interests the Russians ont want to let them go.  This isnt about terrorism, this is about civil war.  Its sad that the Russians have decided to paint it as a war on terror, because that is hardly what it is.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't think that it is just oil, even if that is a factor. There is a bigger problem for the Russian government in leaving the conflict. Russia today is many states all with over strong local government, it can't afford to send the message out that terrorism and armed action is an option for Russian states. Just as Spain can't allow the Basque freedom though most people there want it; it would be a victory for the bomb and the bullet.

[red oct 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Sep. 01 2002,20:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Sep. 01 2002,17<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">they were probaly demiliterized, Out Door Army Navy Stores around my area have non functional hand gernades for $5.00. back on topic, why exactly should the russians fall back and leave the war, if anything more countries should help the russians.<span id='postcolor'>

Why?

Because the people of the area want to form their own government.  It's been done by a lot of former republics, but because of oil interests the Russians ont want to let them go.  This isnt about terrorism, this is about civil war.  Its sad that the Russians have decided to paint it as a war on terror, because that is hardly what it is.<span id='postcolor'>

how can you be so sure that its really just oil they want? and that the chechans are really the good guys in this? most importantly how can you be sure that if russia would pull back that Chechnia wouldn't become another haven for terrorists and another Afghanistan scenareo won't happen?

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Sep. 01 2002,23:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">how can you be so sure that its really just oil they want? and that the chechans are really the good guys in this? most importantly how can you be sure that if russia would pull back that Chechnia wouldn't become another haven for terrorists and another Afghanistan scenareo won't happen?<span id='postcolor'>

War is hell.

It is a civil war. It's not pleasant, it's not fair, it's not pretty. That's war though.

For every questionable action taken by the Chechen rebels, I am willing to bet we'll find an equally wrong action by the Russians.

i guess I object to the western media trying to make it into a question of terrorism. It's not.

Tell ya what... since it's ok to wage war on those that support terrorism, lets go clean out the home of some of the worst terrorists in recent european history.

Ireland. Sound fair? You cant pick and choose which terrorists havens you will 'take out' because then you are a hypocrite (This isnt aimed at you directly, more at western perceptions)

[red oct 2]

im not gona denie that the russians have done wrong but whos the greater wrong? neither are saints but i'd rather see that the russians crush the chechans than see another place for terror groups the have a base to make there plans.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Sep. 02 2002,00:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">im not gona denie that the russians have done wrong but whos the greater wrong? neither are saints but i'd rather see that the russians crush the chechans than see another place for terror groups the have a base to make there plans.<span id='postcolor'>

Again..

You are saying that Muslims = Terrorist

That is a fallacy in thinking.

Tim McVeigh. Remember him? Should we assume that anyone who thinks like him is a terrorist and threfore it's ok to bomb their homes until they decide to stop believing hte way they do? Hell, you'd have to bomb most of the southern states and a lot of the northwestern ones into submission if you wanted to root out white supremacist terrorists out of existanceThere are extremists of all sorts. Just because they do bad things, doesnt mean that everyone the look like them or shares a faith system with them are going to be like them.

[Cloney 0]

I have a firm belief that you can believe whatever you want aslong as you don't take action to hurt others.

If some asshole wants to say "Im gonna kill all Muslims because they are all terrorist shits" Then be my guest. But if he goes into town and starts killiing Muslims soley because of their religion then that is wrong.

You can't stop a person from thinking what they want, you can stop a person from doing what isn't right.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Sep. 02 2002,01:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can't stop a person from thinking what they want, you can stop a person from doing what isn't right.<span id='postcolor'>

That is the current American (and freinds) thinking but who decides what is right?