Second russian helicopter downed by missile

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 01 2002,20:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Sep. 02 2002,01:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You can't stop a person from thinking what they want, you can stop a person from doing what isn't right.<span id='postcolor'>

That is the current American (and freinds) thinking but who decides what is right?<span id='postcolor'>

America and Israel.

EDIT: Maybe Bush and Sharon

[Antichrist 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 01 2002,13:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I never claimed that all Muslim people are terrorists. There are a lot of Muslims in the part of Auystralia I live in, and I havent been blown up yet. You have to admit that there are quite a few muslim terrorists in Chechnya. If the Russian Goverment were smart, they would leave. Even if they conquered the country, due to the methods they would have to use, there would be tons of embargos by western countries and no one would bu their oil.<span id='postcolor'>

If Russian government really wanted to finish the war they could've annihilated the country with couple of nukes or chemical weapons..... they need this conflict....

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Thats right, they need this conflict just like America needed Vietnam

*Sigh* No wonder I appointed you as the replacement for Suddam Hussien Anti-Christ.

If they nuked Chechnya, they wouldnt be able to get the oil!

[theavonlady 2]

--

[WhoCares 0]

I think the fight of the Chechnya 'rebels' is as much justified as a rebellion of the Mor(m)ons for a 'free' Utah would be. There are other muslim dominated russian republics, that seem to work just fine with the russian government, so what's the deal with Chechnya?! And if they would let Chechnya go along, it would most likly destabilize other republics and just move the conflict over there. So they fight the war there, instead of letting it spread in other parts of the country. Whether it is right or wrong, you can argue about, but it is understandable...

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WhoCares @ Sep. 02 2002,12:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the fight of the Chechnya 'rebels' is as much justified as a rebellion of the Mor(m)ons for a 'free' Utah would be.<span id='postcolor'>

If so, then what justifies any fight for independence?

If a bully punches you on the street, what justifies you to hit back?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ Sep. 02 2002,12:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WhoCares @ Sep. 02 2002,12:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the fight of the Chechnya 'rebels' is as much justified as a rebellion of the Mor(m)ons for a 'free' Utah would be.<span id='postcolor'>

If so, then what justifies any fight for independence?

If a bully punches you on the street, what justifies you to hit back?<span id='postcolor'>

Is someone attacking the Mormons?

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 02 2002,12:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ Sep. 02 2002,12:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WhoCares @ Sep. 02 2002,12:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the fight of the Chechnya 'rebels' is as much justified as a rebellion of the Mor(m)ons for a 'free' Utah would be.<span id='postcolor'>

If so, then what justifies any fight for independence?

If a bully punches you on the street, what justifies you to hit back?<span id='postcolor'>

Is someone attacking the Mormons? <span id='postcolor'>

Is someone not attacking Chechens?

[Antichrist 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 02 2002,09:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thats right, they need this conflict just like America needed Vietnam

*Sigh* No wonder I appointed you as the replacement for Suddam Hussien Anti-Christ.

If they nuked Chechnya, they wouldnt be able to get the oil!<span id='postcolor'>

That was exactly my point! They could've ended it ages ago. But some russian businessmen and politicians are getting too much money from the weapon sales to rebels to let it go so easily

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ Sep. 02 2002,13:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 02 2002,12:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ Sep. 02 2002,12:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WhoCares @ Sep. 02 2002,12:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the fight of the Chechnya 'rebels' is as much justified as a rebellion of the Mor(m)ons for a 'free' Utah would be.<span id='postcolor'>

If so, then what justifies any fight for independence?

If a bully punches you on the street, what justifies you to hit back?<span id='postcolor'>

Is someone attacking the Mormons? <span id='postcolor'>

Is someone not attacking Chechens? <span id='postcolor'>

Can you tell me with 100% surety who started attacking whom?

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 02 2002,13:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ Sep. 02 2002,136)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 02 2002,12:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ Sep. 02 2002,12:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WhoCares @ Sep. 02 2002,12:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the fight of the Chechnya 'rebels' is as much justified as a rebellion of the Mor(m)ons for a 'free' Utah would be.<span id='postcolor'>

If so, then what justifies any fight for independence?

If a bully punches you on the street, what justifies you to hit back?<span id='postcolor'>

Is someone attacking the Mormons? <span id='postcolor'>

Is someone not attacking Chechens? <span id='postcolor'>

Can you tell me with 100% surety who started attacking whom?<span id='postcolor'>

No.

And I think that it really doesn't matter.

But what it is that justifies some country's independence afterall, if

the 'rebels' have no justification for their fight?

[WhoCares 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ Sep. 02 2002,11:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WhoCares @ Sep. 02 2002,12:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the fight of the Chechnya 'rebels' is as much justified as a rebellion of the Mor(m)ons for a 'free' Utah would be.<span id='postcolor'>

If so, then what justifies any fight for independence?

If a bully punches you on the street, what justifies you to hit back?<span id='postcolor'>

a) I don't know, that's why I said that a mormon rebellion would be justified the same way. I didn't say that it is generally wrong to fight for independence...

b) He has attacked me, so self defense would justify it. But I don't know who took the first action in Chechnya...

more maybe later...

[LauryThorn 0]

And this "first action" is very hard to find out, or define, in countries' relationships.

Finland took the first action in Winter War, according to Russia.

Finland made an artillery strike where there were no Finnish artillery.

Anyway, I think that defending our country was justified.

And some people feel that this "chechen bomb-strike" in Moscow

was a little similar..

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ Sep. 02 2002,13:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Finland made an artillery strike where there were no Finnish artillery.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, they shouldn't have tried it then!

[zverushka 0]

What fucking oil?

There's no oil in chechnya, it's a small mountainous country. I think thye should pull out of there, but then again, it would become a terrorist haven.

BTW.. Chechnya isn't JUST a muslim country. They test there manliness by testign how well they can cleave a body in half from the head to legs. They are pretty warlike down there.

Russians can annihilate it pretty easy with even conventional bombs, but as anti-christ said, some mafiosi and businessmen are selling weapons and crap to the russian military, and they need the war to stay alive.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (zverushka @ Sep. 02 2002,18:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What ******* oil?

There's no oil in chechnya, it's a small mountainous country.<span id='postcolor'>

Care to reconsider?

From InfoPlease:

Grozny or Groznyy , city (1989 pop. 400,000), capital of Chechnya, SE European Russia, in the northern foothills of the Greater Caucasus. It is the center of Russia's oil fields, linked by pipelines to Makhachkala on the Caspian Sea, to Tuapse on the Black Sea, and to Horlivka in Ukraine. Grozny has oil refineries, chemical plants, and machinery factories. One of Russia's oldest oil-producing areas (production began in 1893), Grozny was a major strategic goal of invading German armies in World War II. Soviet troops halted the German advance just short of the city. Fighting between the Russian army and Chechen separatists devastated the city in the mid-1990s and again in 1999.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Sep. 02 2002,17:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (zverushka @ Sep. 02 2002,18:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What ******* oil?

There's no oil in chechnya, it's a small mountainous country.<span id='postcolor'>

Care to reconsider?

From InfoPlease:

Grozny or Groznyy , city (1989 pop. 400,000), capital of Chechnya, SE European Russia, in the northern foothills of the Greater Caucasus. It is the center of Russia's oil fields, linked by pipelines to Makhachkala on the Caspian Sea, to Tuapse on the Black Sea, and to Horlivka in Ukraine. Grozny has oil refineries, chemical plants, and machinery factories. One of Russia's oldest oil-producing areas (production began in 1893), Grozny was a major strategic goal of invading German armies in World War II. Soviet troops halted the German advance just short of the city. Fighting between the Russian army and Chechen separatists devastated the city in the mid-1990s and again in 1999.<span id='postcolor'>

There may be oil there but it is not unique in Russia nor is it vital to Russia. The war is about Russian prestige and sending a signal to the rest of the huge Federation that dissent against Moscow is not an option. Far more valuble than oil!

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Sep. 02 2002,19:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The war is about Russian prestige and sending a signal to the rest of the huge Federation that dissent against Moscow is not an option.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes it is an opinion, and I recommend it to everyone!

Look how baltic countries are finally starting to raise their head again, now that

they are not part of Russia anymore.

Russia is fucked up, and it fucks up everything that is under its control.

Karelia used to be part of Finland, and now it's so screwed..

I visited there last summer, and it was awful to see how a border

of two countries (Finland & Russia) can be so extreme.

Sorry for my politically incorrect opinions, but this is how I feel.

[von Schnitzel 0]

To my knowledge, not nearly all Checnyans support independence, at least not a post-war government likely to be led by muslim extremists. The rebel movement has been mostly crushed and they now mount some random attacks against Russian helicopters etc. They probably have very little or no support amongst Chechnyan civilians who just want to get along with their lives. These 'freedom fighters' have already shown their true nature by taking Russian civilians hostage in a hospital and blowing apartment blocks in Moscow (dont get started about some Putin conspiracy here.)

Russians have used atricious and ruthless methods in bringing down the revolt (shelling of Groznyi for example), but the Rebels aren't any better in that sense. Publishing videos about their glorious ambushes on the Internet just brings me to think can't they do anything more useful than blowing apart Russian conscripts riding on top of APCs.

Checnya conflict has nothing to do with Winter War or similiar conflicts. It's a civil war.

[LauryThorn 0]

Well yeah, mostly I'm sad because of what Russians (and maybe Chechen fighters) do to the regular Chechen people..

Like arbitrary beatings, arrests and so on..

[Indychuck 0]

I feel it's a mixture of oil, money, and Russia trying to cut down dissident feelings among former republics. Russia's economy has always been built for war not peace. This is why after the Cold War the system feel apart. No more arms race to compete with. Business needs this war.

Russia is also trying to send a message to the former republics. Russia was once the most feared country on earth and now they are pretty much a third world country. Moscow is struggling to hang on to it's past glory as any nation would. It is always politicians who play chess with our lives regardless of what system we live under. When the US said it would help out in the Republic of Georgia, Russia wasn't too happy cause the US is starting to get influence in an area that was totally under Russian control.

You can try to pull away from Moscow all you want but be warned. You will be challenged.

[deadmoroz 0]

I guess it is Kool to sit somewhere in usa or in europe and discuss things that you never know well.

First of all I have to say: they arent "rebels" or "separatists" or "fighters for independence", they are the TERRORISTS.

There is a lot of records with destroying trucks/aps with

people, shooting down helicopters. I saw how they cut off human head with an axe, how they cut off fingers. One man was killed just because he was russian.

Russia fights with terrorists as usa does it.

Question about money. It is not a secret: money comes from arabic countries. Also it comes from usa, europe(england, eermany, france etc.)

there are a lot of mercenaries in chechnia. In 2001 there was killed former scool teacher from usa. He came to chechnia "to fight against Russia" as he said before he died.

Also there are a lot of afgan terrorists

[Tovarish 0]

To all of you saying Russia should just pull out and leave Chechnya alone:

Have you forgoten that this is Exactly what Russia did at the end of the 94-96 war....and what did the Chechens do? They blew up 300 russian civilians and tried to take Dagestan. <span style='color:red'>these people already HAD a homeland at the end of 96!!</span> the bastards decided their jihad wasn't finished yet though  

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Good point, but what to do? How to stop them? Let the Russinas stay there and hope that the Rebels play nice and dont rebel? Wipe out all the rebels somehow? Kill every Chechnyen to make sure none of them rebel? If youve got answeres to our problems, post them here!

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Sep. 04 2002,18:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To all of you saying Russia should just pull out and leave Chechnya alone:

Have you forgoten that this is Exactly what Russia did at the end of the 94-96 war....and what did the Chechens do? They blew up 300 russian civilians and tried to take Dagestan. <span style='color:red'>these people already HAD a homeland at the end of 96!!</span> the bastards decided their jihad wasn't finished yet though <span id='postcolor'>

1) I don't know too much about situation there, but it's an old Russian tactic

to bomb some target in their own area, and then use that "provocation" as an excuse to launch an assault..

2) If your country has, say, 30 psycho suicide terrorists, then does that

justify to bomb your country back to stone age, like has been done in Checnya?