Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[Jona33 51]

In KotH, CTI, and even Wasteland (after cities get leveled), I would say you always have to run over 100 meters to get from cover A to cover B.

---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

Thats my point, the game wont know.

Whether we leave stamina the way it is now or change it back to how it used to be there will still be unrealistic factors. So why not help infantry out a bit and let us run from cover A to cover B a bit safer.

imo that would be more realistic. Who cares if infantry can run far distances faster? That doesnt effect the game really. What effects the game is infantry not being able to run from cover A to cover B without running totally out of stamina 10 feet away from the destination.

See above post for tests.

Also infantry running around with no punishment is the whole reason they introduced the fatigue system, the idea being that it didn't make a difference if you carried a machinegun, a launcher and a huge backpack full of rockets and then sprinted around, this way you actually have to engage your brain and think about your load and where you move to.

[-Coulum- 35]

I understand it simulates actual stamina but it takes away from infantry game play. I don't want to play a running simulator. I play %100 infantry and trust me it takes away from game play when your dude cant run from point A to point B which is only a few meters away.

I play only infantry as well. The system only adds to the depth of gameplay which is good. In real life people have limits. This game is trying to at least vaguely represent that. Do you want to have people able to take thousands of bullets as well because it apparently "takes away from the gameplay" when you die so quickly. If that is your thought process, I don't think this is the game is for you. Simple as that.

Also, in most situations running for 15 seconds then walking for 3 will get you killed while you slow down to walk for the 3 (at least in Wasteland, Koth and CTI). So this only applies when running long distances away from action.

Well yes of course. I was responding to people that claim it is impossible to travel long distances to an objective without being totally burnt out upon arrival. 15 seconds jog, 3 seconds walk is a way of managing your fatigue so that is not the case while maintaining good speed. If you are getting shot at, or the enemy can see even, yes, obviously you should be sprinting to cover. And if you can't make it to cover before running out of stamina... you fucked up. Bad. Should have planned your movements and your route out better. That's just the nature of the game. This isn't a constant run and gun game.

Plus you cant run for 15 seconds with a launcher without being all the way wore down. 10 seconds maybe and your stamina is done. Try playing CTI or KotH without a launcher, its a neccessity.

Yeah, that's a load of bullshit. I am sorry, I don't mean to be rude but I hope it will get you to actually do some testing for yourself and stop spreading these myths. Go preview the virtual arsenal, which actually has a fatigue indicator, loadup and see how fast you can fatigue yourself. spoiler. It takes alot longer than 15 seconds. The only way I can get close to that is carrying a shitload of explosives while sprinting up a steep hill while crouched... And who's fault is that? Choose a more reasonable loadout/stance/route.

Honestly, the fatigue system is so easy to work around. Don't sprint everywhere you go. Don't crouch or raise your weapon when you don't need to. Walk at every opportunity you get. When I play I doubt my fatigue raises above 15% over the entire match. Its not because I am some genius.

Edit: wow, I was ninja'd several times over. Why did I waste my time typing this all out. What they^^ all said.

Whether we leave stamina the way it is now or change it back to how it used to be there will still be unrealistic factors. So why not help infantry out a bit and let us run from cover A to cover B a bit safer.

imo that would be more realistic. Who cares if infantry can run far distances faster? That doesnt effect the game really. What effects the game is infantry not being able to run from cover A to cover B without running totally out of stamina 10 feet away from the destination.

WHAT? Yeah while we are at lets just make infantry totally invincible, with aim assist and pistols that shoot rockets. It won't effect the game really...

We care that they can run from A to B without totally running out of stamina 10 feet away from B. Without fatigue, the game is unrealistic, easy and boring.

Edited November 2, 2014 by -Coulum-

[beavis_5000 10]

If someone wants to go out and run around like Rambo because there is less fatigue then let them. More kills for us. Someones style shouldnt change that much because of fatigue. If so they are just going to go out and get killed.

Again, to get my point across, if I look out my window, across a yard, across the street, I can see a house about 100 meters away. If I had to run over there in combat I would know what I had to do to get there. I sure as hell wouldnt come to almost a full stop 10 meters away while being shot at.

This is where my main issue lies. Thats unrealistic. In real life andrenaline kicks in and you run that sht hard even if you collapase when you get there.

---------- Post added at 20:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:56 ----------

While we are at lets just make infantry totally invincible, with aim assist and pistols that shoot rockets. It won't effect the game really...

We care that they can run from A to B without totally running out of stamina 10 feet away from B. Without fatigue, the game is unrealistic, easy and boring.

If you play only infantry you should know that even if there was no fatigue infantry would still be a far cry from invincible. If anything that would make infantry easier to kill because of all the dudes out running like Rambo.

Its far more unrealistic for a dude to stop running 10 feet away from cover while being shot at.

---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:22 ----------

Just went into a server with an MX, a luancher with a loaded round and 1 round in the back pack. 15 seconds until your pretty much walking

---------- Post added at 20:30 ---------- Previous post was at 20:28 ----------

Good luck navigating a leveled city like that

[Jona33 51]

If someone wants to go out and run around like Rambo because there is less fatigue then let them. More kills for us. Someones style shouldnt change that much because of fatigue. If so they are just going to go out and get killed.

Again, to get my point across, if I look out my window, across a yard, across the street, I can see a house about 100 meters away. If I had to run over there in combat I would know what I had to do to get there. I sure as hell wouldnt come to almost a full stop 10 meters away while being shot at.

This is where my main issue lies. Thats unrealistic. In real life andrenaline kicks in and you run that sht hard even if you collapase when you get there.

---------- Post added at 20:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:56 ----------

If you play only infantry you should know that even if there was no fatigue infantry would still be a far cry from invincible. If anything that would make infantry easier to kill because of all the dudes out running like Rambo.

Its far more unrealistic for a dude to stop running 10 feet away from cover while being shot at.

Then please enlighten us as to how you simulate adrenaline kicking in, or should it be a magic button that makes fatigue go away and means you can run forever.

And if you're going to carry on bullshitting then just stop, I posted conclusive evidence above that disproves you're "I can't run for 100 metres" line, I just did another one, 100m as a BLUFOR rifleman (sprinting) takes just under twenty seconds, at which point you will be 30% fatigued, while standing I experience almost no weapon sway and can happily fire away, after around twenty seconds my fatigue is pretty much zero.

EDIT: Same test but as a Missile Specialist [AT], sprint 100m, didn't time it but at the end I was 50% fatigued, while standing I experience noticeable but controllable weapon sway, especially with the hold breath feature which pretty much steadies the weapon completely. Recovery is longer because of the increased load.

EDIT2:

Video of earlier test with missile specialist, starts off with loadout screen then runs some code then sprints (had to speed this up, I've only got the free version of fraps which means only 30 seconds of recording) then the code again and then some shooting, initially with hold breath until that runs out then normal. The code is a hint showing my fatigue, and a hint showing my distance to the unit ahead.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Jona33

[beavis_5000 10]

I really had no points to make about weapon sway but im sure it was manageable until you have a moving target in front of you lol.

Anyway, I dont know how to simulate adrenaline.The only way I can think of is to add more stamina. Big deal if distance running is a tad easier. Running a short distance from cover to cover will be more realistic.

I just tried sprinting with an MX, PMCL loaded and one extra round in the back pack. 15 seconds and I was a sitting duck.

[Jona33 51]

Right, more tests, after fifteen seconds sprinting as a standard rifleman AT (so two missiles in backpack) velocity had changed from an initial of 5.05m/s (ish) to 4.95 m/s (a 2% change) after that it drops off at a faster rate but at the end of a 150m sprint it was around 4.3m/s. After that you're forced into a jog and I stopped checking.

[beavis_5000 10]

Right, more tests, after fifteen seconds sprinting as a standard rifleman AT (so two missiles in backpack) velocity had changed from an initial of 5.05m/s (ish) to 4.95 m/s (a 2% change) after that it drops off at a faster rate but at the end of a 150m sprint it was around 4.3m/s. After that you're forced into a jog and I stopped checking.

So basically your a sitting duck around 15 seconds in

[Jona33 51]

So basically your a sitting duck around 15 seconds in

What!? After 15 seconds MY SPEED HAS CHANGED BY 0.1 M/S. IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE.

[beavis_5000 10]

What!? After 15 seconds MY SPEED HAS CHANGED BY 0.1 M/S. IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE.

15 seconds with an MX and launcher I am pretty much walking. Did it again and counted 18 seconds on a slight down hill slope. Seems to be anywhere between 15 -18 seconds before your a sitting duck.

Also tried it while turning corners and it makes you wear out faster I believe because I barley make it to 15 when I turn corners.

I notice a slight decrease in speed just a few seconds in and he keeps slowing down very slowly. Then all the sudden at about 15 seconds he almost stops.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Beavis_5000

[Jona33 51]

15 seconds with an MX and launcher I am pretty much walking. Did it again and counted 18 seconds on a slight down hill slope. Seems to be anywhere between 15 -18 seconds before your a sitting duck.

Also tried it while turning corners and it makes you wear out faster I believe because I barley make it to 15 when I turn corners.

I notice a slight decrease in speed just a few seconds in and he keeps slowing down very slowly. Then all the sudden at about 15 seconds he almost stops.

Ok, this isn't what I'm experiencing, I can post a video of this (if you give me a minute, need to test something first), can you do the same.

[beavis_5000 10]

Ok, this isn't what I'm experiencing, I can post a video of this (if you give me a minute, need to test something first), can you do the same.

I dont have the equipment but I am anxious to see your vid.

If you can, get an MX with a PMCL

Edited November 2, 2014 by Beavis_5000

[Jona33 51]

Here we go

Standard rifleman AT loadout, PCML, MX and three missiles (one loaded). The hint displays the time, my velocity and my fatigue for each second. For velocity you only need to worry about the middle number in the array, it uses an X Y Z format and I'm running pretty much straight north. Fatigue is between 1 and 0 so 0.5 = 50% fatigued.

[beavis_5000 10]

Can you post a vid just like that only on the Airfield (so we know its totally level) and a solid 15-18 seconds of straight sprint? Keep it going until he slows all the way down.

Im getting exactly 125 meters inabout 16-17 seconds before almost walking. A tad better than I thought but will still leave you hanging in tough spots. Any incline what so ever your looking at 10-12 seconds and about 80 meters.

In real life if you had to go 130 meters you could push the extra 5 easy. There wouldn't be an instant stop at 125.

In a leveled city 130 meters isnt that far.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Beavis_5000

[roshnak 41]

Here you go

Edit: Re-ran the test to measure distance. I can sprint roughly 149 meters (about 32 seconds of sprinting) with the default AT Rifleman loadout before hitting the minimum spring/jog speed of 11 kph. For reference, walking speed is 5 kph.

Edited November 2, 2014 by roshnak

[beavis_5000 10]

Here you go

Something is different with your vid. It only takes me about 17 seconds to get to where you are at about 21-22 seconds. Whats in your backpack? And is your launcher loaded?

Edited November 2, 2014 by Beavis_5000

[Jona33 51]

Something is different with your vid. It only takes me about 17 seconds to get to where you are at about 21-22 seconds. Whats in your backpack? And is your launcher loaded?

Assuming that is a default loadout then he'll have two missiles in his backpack and one loaded in the launcher.

[roshnak 41]

Something is different with your vid. It only takes me about 17 seconds to get to where you are at about 21-22 seconds. Whats in your backpack? And is your launcher loaded?

I edited my post, but it's the default Rifleman (AT) loadout. You can see that it's a pretty heavy load at nearly 70% total capacity.

E: Is there a way to display the actual weight in pounds or kilograms? There really should be.

Edited November 2, 2014 by roshnak

[beavis_5000 10]

Im using the default loadout in editor for AT specialist

[-Coulum- 35]

Im getting exactly 125 meters inabout 16-17 seconds before almost walking. A tad better than I thought but will still leave you hanging in tough spots. Any incline what so ever your looking at 10-12 seconds and about 80 meters.

In real life if you had to go 130 meters you could push the extra 5 easy. There wouldn't be an instant stop at 125.

I am getting 30 seconds before any appreciable speed change. In that 30 seconds you are getting 5.1m/s to 4.8ish which is nowhere near a walk. And you cover around 250 metres. That is plenty of time to get to cover if you aren't being and idiot running in the middle of a completely exposed 500 metre field. Try to avoid those. You'll probably die in them regardless of fatigue.

In a leveled city 130 meters isnt that far

Don't go into a levelled city carrying three rockets and a launcher than. I don't see why you think it is best to extend human abilities to unrealistic lengths, just so you can do something in game easier. How about trying to change your tacitcs a bit. Spread those rockets around with some buddies if it is really necessary to go into the middle of a completely leveled city (which I personally have never seen in arma but I guess it must happen.)

In real life if you had to go 130 meters you could push the extra 5 easy. There wouldn't be an instant stop at 125.

I used to run fairly competetive track. In one of the national meets I saw two people literally collapse metres before the finish line. I know their life isn't depending on winning, but there is alot of adreneline at those events. They've been training years for them. Everyone has their limits eventually, no matter what situation they are in. And remember adreneline can lead some people to do amazing things in stressful situations. But others just crawl into a ball and cry...

[roshnak 41]

And remember adreneline can lead some people to do amazing things in stressful situations. But others just crawl into a ball and cry...

Which isn't even what's happening in Arma. You're just slowing down a little bit.

[maturin 12]

If someone wants to go out and run around like Rambo because there is less fatigue then let them. More kills for us.

WRONG.

It means that everyone on the server will be carrying a .50 sniper rifle and a Titan with 4 rounds, enabling them to massacre everything on the map.

That's what ArmA 2 was.

Fatigue is beautiful.

[roshnak 41]

Im using the default loadout in editor for AT specialist

Missile Specialist (AT) is carrying an MPRL Compact and 3 missiles (+1 loaded), not a PCML, and is carrying more weight at 86% maximum load (this is a lot).

With this loadout, I can sprint for 28 seconds, covering 123 meters of ground before hitting the slowest sprint/jog speed of 11 kph. Again, walking speed is 5 kph.

I also have to say that I think that 130 meters is pretty far in any kind of urban environment, leveled or not. You're clearing several houses at that distance, giving you ample opportunity to duck into cover.

Edited November 2, 2014 by roshnak

[beavis_5000 10]

My dude is going 125 meters before slowing to almost a walk (very slow jog). With a more accurate timer it takes about 25 seconds lol. 8 seconds longer than when i was counting, yes my bad.

In the video, the dude runs for about 30 seconds until he gets to where im at at 25. Not sure whats going on there.

I just dont see how more stamina would allow someone to run around with a .50 sniper and launcher massacaring everything. You think the stamina will make them that much better? I dont see that. Trying to run to much in Arma gets you killed.

Coulom, if you havnt seen a leveled city then you havnt played CTI or KotH.

I see all your points and I agree but imo the most unrealistic thing about all this is when a dude stops running 5 feet from cover while he is getting shot at. If your running from a tank your not gonna almost stop at 125 meters.

I see the majority is against my opinion and thats no big deal (tho I did think others would feel the same as me). I can get by with the current fatigue no big deal at all. Its annoying and can screw you in tough spots but nothing that cant be over come.

At least after this thread I know more how to work with it.

---------- Post added at 22:59 ---------- Previous post was at 22:55 ----------

Missile Specialist (AT) is carrying an MPRL Compact and 3 missiles (+1 loaded), not a PCML, and is carrying more weight at 86% maximum load (this is a lot).

With this loadout, I can sprint for 28 seconds, covering 123 meters of ground before hitting the slowest sprint/jog speed of 11 kph. Again, walking speed is 5 kph.

I also have to say that I think that 130 meters is pretty far in any kind of urban environment, leveled or not. You're clearing several houses at that distance, giving you ample opportunity to duck into cover.

In a leveled city there is no cover sometimes for long distances. A guess a destroyed building can provide some cover but your probably still going to die from tank, air or sniper.

As a I said before,the worst is dying 5 feet from cover when your dude slows all the way down while getting shot at. It just doesnt seem logical to me.

[roshnak 41]

I just dont see how more stamina would allow someone to run around with a .50 sniper and launcher massacaring everything. You think the stamina will make them that much better? I dont see that. Trying to run to much in Arma gets you killed.

Let's put it this way: The current stamina system was designed to prevent people from doing the exact thing that you're upset you can't do. Soldiers with long range guided missile launchers (and carrying far more missiles than is reasonable, to be honest) are not supposed to be entering enemy held cities and towns and engaging in close quarters battle. Have you seen many videos of guys fighting house-to-house with Javelins on their backs? That's why light, single-use, disposable AT weapons like the LAW and AT4 were introduced. If you were to take a PCML and a single missile you might be carrying a more reasonable loadout for the kind of combat it sounds like you're engaging in.

Also, I don't understand why you keep describing the slowdown as a dead stop to near walk speeds. It's not. My videos clearly show a gradual slow down from 18 to 15 kph starting at around 40% fatigue and ending at around 60% fatigue, at which point there is a quick drop-off to 11 kph. This is definitely slower than a standard jog (14 kph) but it's still more than twice as fast as a walk (5 kph).

That said, there are some valid complaints that could be made. The lack of a proper light anti-tank weapon in the game does force people to take a heavier launcher than is really reasonable for dealing with light armor at close range (such as MRAPs), and pretty much all of the military weapons in the game are armored. The drop off from 15 to 11 kph is also pretty abrupt, and could stand to be smoothed out over time like the drop-off from 18-15 kph is.

P.S. 130 meters is way too great a distance for you to be out of cover while under enemy fire. This is the kind of distance where, if you have to run it out of cover, you should be trying to screen your movement with smoke or something.

[beavis_5000 10]

That said, there are some valid complaints that could be made. The lack of a proper light anti-tank weapon in the game does force people to take a heavier launcher than is really reasonable for dealing with light armor at close range (such as MRAPs), and pretty much all of the military weapons in the game are armored. The drop off from 15 to 11 kph is also pretty abrupt, and could stand to be smoothed out over time like the drop-off from 18-15 kph is.

I think this could solve the problem. My main issue is the sudden slow down. It hits hard and leaves you in a bad spot.

Of course its not exactly a walk but it dam near is. When your going this speed your an easy kill. Tho your not going much faster before the drop off its still fast enough to get by. Then bam you almost stop (at least it seems that way when your getting shot at).

So really I think you hit the nail on the head of the hammer. No matter your load out or how far you run it doesnt make sense to me to all the sudden slow down that dramatically when your getting shot at.