So ArmA3 gave us a reason to go in the water.. Now I am thinking, Epic Naval Warfare

[chortles 263]

Without the ability the walk on deck while the ships moves I suppose we would be limited too static ships in which case I can see everybody's point on BI not bothering to do make such a thing and a mod would easily suffice that.

Pretty much... the ships are essentially static relative to guided weapons' ranges and speeds anyway. For example, an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer can go in excess of 30 knots or 55.56 km/h, but a "Switchblade" anti-ship missile such as that depicted in this model (meant to replace the Harpoons on the aforementioned Ambassador MK III missile boat mod) can go in excess of Mach 0.8 (529 knots) or 980 km/h, with a range as far as 130 km... while the Flight IIA Arleigh Burke depicted in this mod lacks the comparable Harpoon missiles that prior versions did. And hell, RKSL-Rock outright said that it would use the BIS Artillery module...

Where BI hasn't put attention to "the naval aspect" besides the infamous trinity of "drivability, walkability, landability" is in maximum model size -- to my knowledge the limit is about/just barely over 60 meters (hence RKSL-Rock's remark re: the Ambassador MK III), and while according to BI's lead programmer Ondrej "Suma" Spanel that's a horizontal limit and someone could create a taller object just fine, that doesn't help here where the important dimension is the length. Result? The "big ships" are basically all multiple models/objects, meaning "funky scripting to get it working ingame" (that wasn't needed for the Ambassador MK III because of it being just small enough to be a single model), so you'd basically have to do whatever Gnat did to get his frigates, submarines, and FSF, or whatever mukcep did to get CVN Ulyanovsk working in the Legacy of Cold War pack.

IMO in Arma series, naval warfare should be developed as support to ground units: artillery and amphibious platform ( hovercrafts and landing crafts ), carrier to deploy CAS and submarines to send spec ops and to torpedo other ships.

As said before actual naval battles took place at dozens or even hundreds of kms, basically missile fights. Though some submarine hunting with a chopper could be funny.

You've got the right general idea, but submarines I'd say are unfortunately in the "big ships" category, as do the warships that tend to be tasked with ASW (i.e. those large enough to carry helos)... and sure, ASW helicopters are more appropriate, but I don't believe that it's too much of an exaggeration to say that ASW is about finding the damned things in the first place! :p

[ledhead900 10]

I would agree that notion to see some smaller ships, They have that civilian cruise boat it seems fairly large, Could we not get some smaller naval ships for transport reasons and grab one capable of transporting a helicopter.

I don't mind mods but I am new to the scene and I have no idea how to pack a mod along with my mission on workshop so using static objects outside of what is available in the engine is a no go.

[mistyronin 1181]

You've got the right general idea, but submarines I'd say are unfortunately in the "big ships" category, as do the warships that tend to be tasked with ASW (i.e. those large enough to carry helos)... and sure, ASW helicopters are more appropriate, but I don't believe that it's too much of an exaggeration to say that ASW is about finding the damned things in the first place! :p

For my concern, big ships can still be static, asw choppers can also be launched from land, and not all submarines are as huge as american ones, IMO one like the Gotland would fit perfectly ( if needed a bit shortened ).

BTW, yeah ASW is a hunt, it could be a nice mission as helicopter pilot ( you could add the sonar as PiP, as we have the radar ). Merlins, I mean Mohawks are a perfect fit for the job.

And it would make sense that AAF focus part of their resources to control the sea, maybe even with some kind of patrol plane, like the P3 Orion or S3 Viking.

[chortles 263]

If it helps, as far as what I mean by "Arma scale" ships... think patrol boats, particularly those that fit within the aforementioned 60 meter maximum geometry envelope/model limit, such as the US Navy Cyclone-class patrol ship, or the US Coast Guard Island-class patrol boat (the class involved in the sinking of the RyÅ Un Maru).

I would agree that notion to see some smaller ships, They have that civilian cruise boat it seems fairly large, Could we not get some smaller naval ships for transport reasons and grab one capable of transporting a helicopter.

I don't mind mods but I am new to the scene and I have no idea how to pack a mod along with my mission on workshop so using static objects outside of what is available in the engine is a no go.

The shortest ships that I know of that can support helicopters are, of all things, all three of Greenpeace's ships. Seriously. :p Specifically, the just-under-50-meters-long MV Arctic Sunrise (whose helipad is clearly visible in the first image of its slideshow, with a direct link if you don't mind opening Flash files), followed by the just-under-58-meters-long Rainbow Warrior (III) (video

, fast-forward to 1:30 for video thereof, or look at where people are standing in this 3.72 MB still image), and the 72-meters-long MV Esperanza. (Both Arctic Sunrise and Rainbow Warrior fit within the aforementioned 60 meter length limit that my prior posts talk about.)

Thanks to this image identifying the lost "Tweety" as having been a 500D / 369D -- the MD 500 series having been a basis for the "Little Bird" family -- we can pretty safely guesstimate that at what you may call "smaller" ships but which I call "pushing the high end of Arma scale" naval ships, you're only going to be safely hosting Little Bird-type helos such as the AH-9 Pawnee and MH-9 Hummingbird.

(Trivia: Here's a North Korean 500E with side-mounted anti-tank guided missiles.)

If we're talking strictly military warships, then the shortest one that I'm aware of with a helipad is the 72.7-meters-long Visby-class corvette, but that can support landing, refuel and takeoff (but not stowage) of the 13-meter-long AW109 (designated Helikopter 15, or Hkp 15, in Swedish service); for comparison, a SH-60B Seahawk ASW helicopter is 19.75 meters long.

As for "transport reasons" besides helicopters... well, what would you want to put on such a ship?

For my concern, big ships can still be static, asw choppers can also be launched from land, and not all submarines are as huge as american ones, IMO one like the Gotland would fit perfectly ( if needed a bit shortened ).

BTW, yeah ASW is a hunt, it could be a nice mission as helicopter pilot ( you could add the sonar as PiP, as we have the radar ). Merlins, I mean Mohawks are a perfect fit for the job.

And it would make sense that AAF focus part of their resources to control the sea, maybe even with some kind of patrol plane, like the P3 Orion or S3 Viking.

A fair point on the submarine lengths, but it's going to be time-consuming to try and find all of the ones that would fit within the 60 meter limit -- the Gotland that you cite is just barely over 60 meters (in fact, less so than the aforementioned Ambassador MK III) yet Swedish Forces Pack has it as a moving vessel. :) Can't say how well until the mod as a whole gets cleaned up and the game stabilizes, but there you go. (The Södermanland-class and Archer-class submarines are but mere inches longer.)

As for "the ASW gameplay"... you mean looking something like this? Or this? Or this? Or hell, speaking of that last one, these?

:D

The S-3 Viking's been retired from carriers while the P-3 Orion's got a successor lined up in the airliner-derived P-8 Poseidon, but for maritime patrol there's plenty of fixed-wing options... including UAVs. :lol: Alternately, the A 143 Buzzard might be the AAF's go-to fixed-wing, period, including for maritime patrol.

[Tonci87 163]

Regarding Naval Warfare:

I think we have to ask a different question first. How big could a usermade Sea only Map be?

[[evo] dan 79]

Regarding Naval Warfare:

I think we have to ask a different question first. How big could a usermade Sea only Map be?

from my A2 experiments, at least 204km * 204km

[Tonci87 163]

Dan;2527557']from my A2 experiments' date=' at least 204km * 204km[/quote']

And there you have your realistic engagement ranges ^^

A Naval Warfare mod with Ships, Carriers, Subs Aircraft and helicopters isn´t impossible. It Just would be a huge ammount of work.

[chortles 263]

And there you have your realistic engagement ranges ^^

A Naval Warfare mod with Ships, Carriers, Subs Aircraft and helicopters isn´t impossible. It Just would be a huge ammount of work.

Even on a 204 km2 "all water" map, you'd still have plenty of the weapons cover a sizable portion of the map if not even further. :p

[Tonci87 163]

Even on a 204 km2 "all water" map, you'd still have plenty of the weapons cover a sizable portion of the map if not even further. :p

So, wich weapons would that be?

[[evo] dan 79]

Even on a 204 km2 "all water" map, you'd still have plenty of the weapons cover a sizable portion of the map if not even further. :p

you can go bigger than that as I recall, but you have issues placing objects on the map in V3, apparently not an issue in V4 however, its just you wont get micro terrain at that size (although do you really need it with ships). As I recall, Bushlurker said we could go up to 1000km x 1000km terrain (i.e tommahawk max range pretty much)

[chortles 263]

So, wich weapons would that be?

Just as an example, the Exocet MM40 Block 3, with a range out to or in excess of 180 kilometers... or the Mk3 version of the RBS-15 ("RB-15" in Swedish Forces Pack) which can exceed 200 kilometers... and the ranges I've seen reported for the Tomahawk well exceed the 1000 km2 that [EVO] Dan mentions.

[GottyPlays 10]

Gnat;2526389']LOL .... well you're going to be bitterly disappointed very quickly.

BI don't do non-standard stuff like working carriers and naval mods

I'm already disappointed. i'm listening to the huge crowd that claims that bis will fix everything and will add a ridiculous number of assets for free (LOL)

Seriously however Im not a huge mod fun, but only because i don't want to waste my time on selecting mods before going online on every server that i join, i don't understand why the game can't be good out of the box..but i don't want to derail this thread on the matter once again, i'm sick tired of fanboys on these forums :P

[chortles 263]

Well, as for why BI wouldn't do it... the Arma 3 devs have alluded to more than once that they just don't see "big navy" as "core" to Arma. Even looking back at Arma 2, the closest that you had was an "inert" Destroyer object that didn't actually do anything and a LHD that was literally just a part of the Utes terrain instead of a regular object. Unfortunately, this attitude seems to have trickled down into a lack of development priority for under-the-hood engine changes to support "big, moving, landable, walkable ships".

[[evo] dan 79]

Just as an example, the Exocet MM40 Block 3, with a range out to or in excess of 180 kilometers... or the Mk3 version of the RBS-15 ("RB-15" in Swedish Forces Pack) which can exceed 200 kilometers... and the ranges I've seen reported for the Tomahawk well exceed the 1000 km2 that [EVO] Dan mentions.

Tomahawk is about 1300-1500km, which fired from corner to corner is pretty much max range. (bare in mind you probably wont have detected your opponent at that range with most warships)

[Tonci87 163]

Just as an example, the Exocet MM40 Block 3, with a range out to or in excess of 180 kilometers... or the Mk3 version of the RBS-15 ("RB-15" in Swedish Forces Pack) which can exceed 200 kilometers... and the ranges I've seen reported for the Tomahawk well exceed the 1000 km2 that [EVO] Dan mentions.

Well, there are countermeassures^^

But if it is really possible to go for 1000x1000 then we definately have all the space we need.

[chortles 263]

More like if we actually get a 1000 km2 map, then we're talking. ;) I'm talking ranges insofar as what's possible, though as [EVO] Dan noted, the ranges on such weapons and as importantly shipboard sensors such as radars are well outside of the detection ranges that the Arma series (and possibly the Real Virtuality 4 engine) simulates.

@ [EVO] Dan: Going diagonally, corner-to-corner on a square 1000 km2 map would be slightly over 1414.2 km (the square root of 2 million km, which is what the squares of 1000 km -- a million km each -- add up to... yay Pythagorean theorem).

P.S. Incidentally, I ended up giving a try of the DARPA ACTUV Tactics Simulator game, and whadya know... the fixed-wing ASW aircraft in the game is a P-8 Poseidon.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Chortles

[ledhead900 10]

As for "transport reasons" besides helicopters... well, what would you want to put on such a ship?

I was thinking more along the lines of other naval carriers like barges to carry platoons of tanks and men, or modern day support class like in WWII Omaha beach all the infantry arrived on those personal craft to shore. They have the thing I am trying to remember the name for in Battlefield3, ah yes this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/LCAC_19970620.jpg and http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/5666661907_17ef53704d_b.jpg.

As for scuba I could think of couple things of interest.

http://www.divinglore.com/Genesis/images/Misc/MilitarySDV.jpg

http://www.armedforces-int.com/upload/image_files/Military-Diver-Propulsion-Devices.jpg

Edited October 7, 2013 by ledhead900

[mistyronin 1181]

Well the hovercraft option seems more attractive to me since you can use it both in land and sea. How awesome would be seeing one landing in The east coast of Altis and moving to the salt lake where it would download heavy stuff.

[Variable 322]

Well the hovercraft option seems more attractive to me since you can use it both in land and sea. How awesome would be seeing one landing in The east coast of Altis and moving to the salt lake where it would download heavy stuff.

Now THAT would be awesome!

[[aps]gnat 28]

I'm already disappointed. ..... i'm sick tired of fanboys on these forums :P

.... and some of us a sick of whiners who didn't research what they were buying. BI's forumula has barely changed in 10 years.

Dan;2527557']from my A2 experiments' date=' at least 204km * 204km[/quote']

And there you have your realistic engagement ranges ^^

A Naval Warfare mod with Ships, Carriers, Subs Aircraft and helicopters isn´t impossible. It Just would be a huge ammount of work.

To be honest, sounds kinda boring.

Such huge area, limited direct interaction.

Much simpler to just go play Harpoon or Dangerous Waters.

[mistyronin 1181]

Gnat;2528419']To be honest' date=' sounds kinda boring.

Such huge area, limited direct interaction.

Much simpler to just go play Harpoon or Dangerous Waters.[/quote']

Well, if its a mod, I don't see why not, would give a diff gameplay; I'd be interested in. BTW in Dangerous Waters, Harpoon, Fleet Command, etc. you can't drive the choppers or the assault boats.

For the vanilla I'd focus only on ground support: naval artillery, landing crafts and maybe ASW choppers to hunt submarines or mini subs that may carry spec ops divers and find mines.

[OMAC 254]

Epic naval warfare game from BIS? What about this? ;)

[mistyronin 1181]

Epic naval warfare game from BIS? What about this? ;)

I don't want to sound contemptuous, but IMO Carrier Command is far away from naval warfare; it's some kind of arcade fast ground game where the carriers acts as a insertion point. The games I said before are truly naval war games: submarines, sonobuoys, missiles, chopppers, etc...

Anyway, I think no one should expect that from A3, at least officially; it's not the goal of the game. Though it would be nice if some community guys could work on that.

[OMAC 254]

I know what Carrier Command is. That's all you are going to get from BIS in terms of naval warfare. Learn to recognize sarcasm when you see it.

[mistyronin 1181]

Learn to recognize sarcasm when you see it.

How kind, thank you for your clarification.