Mantle, SteamOS and Arma 3

[cofi0276 1]

So now that AMD is releasing this new 3d API called Mantle and Valve is releasing SteamOS is Arma 3 gonna be working on that new stuff? Will we have much better performance in Arma since Mantle can use all cores?

In layman terms, Mantle is a DiurectX 11 alternative that will “let you make the best of your PC.†The GPU and system won't be bottlenecked, and the “perfect†parallel rendering technology will use all 8 CPU cores at their best (even better with Gaming Evolved app).

[Deadfast 43]

Considering it would require a complete rewrite of the rendering part of the engine the chance of that is same as the change of switching to OpenGL. Very small.

[calin_banc 19]

Atm there isn't much known about Mantle. Probably it would be a "relative" easy API to code or port your code to, or else it would be very difficult for the developers to jump on it.

[PuFu 4591]

Atm there isn't much known about Mantle. Probably it would be a "relative" easy API to code or port your code to, or else it would be very difficult for the developers to jump on it.

There is a difference between getting your code in while in development and rewriting it post development

[cofi0276 1]

Considering it would require a complete rewrite of the rendering part of the engine the chance of that is same as the change of switching to OpenGL. Very small.

How hard would it be to make it work on SteamOS? Valve says they got thousands of games already ported. Also i heard that they are gonna make a debugger. To be honest i dont even know what that is.

[PuFu 4591]

How hard would it be to make it work on SteamOS? Valve says they got thousands of games already ported.

considering that valveOS is running some sort of linux (so it is OpenGL/CL), not all that easy

[cofi0276 1]

I mean im ready to switch to linux. Most of the programs i use already work there, only thing that keeps me on Windows i basically DayZ.

[mamasan8 11]

Try Wine

http://www.winehq.org/

[mercenar1e 10]

That depends on If the same performance increase will be seen on nvidia cards... Why would they waste money on something that could potentially benefit so few? Honestly I'd rather they save the money to work on a whole new engine.

[mmaruda 20]

This is interesting news. AMD is trying to storm the market with this. Many devs have spoken years back that DX needs to go, the recent slow drive towards Linux and new consoles being made with AMD stuff can change the game market significantly as future multiplatform games probably have a better chance of being optimized with AMD and the new API in mind (it's supposed to allow direct access to the GPU memory, whatever it means).

I doubt there is any chance BIS is going to do anything about it. Also, knowing simulation developers, it seems a realistic picture that 10 years into the future, when DX and Windows become obsolete and a bottleneck for future hardware, simulation devs will only start to notice the need to change their engines.

[frostwyrm333 1]

They only announced it yesterday and there is little info on how it really works and whether it actually works, but potentially, this is something that Arma could use, if it really makes rendering more efficient for CPU then its pure magic. Supposedly, it is compatible with DirectX so rewriting isn't necessary and EA seems enthusiastic about it. Almost too good to be true, the results of eliminating the overhead and allowing console level of graphics optimization is insane. But then again, there are hundreds of implications.

Anyway, it's too early to say, and only last generation of AMD's support it if I understand correctly.

Remember that this and linux are 2 completely different things, the main problem for linux is no DirectX (but it could be compiled against Wine I guess, but dx9 only)

Only one insanity at a time.:cool:

[mercenar1e 10]

This is interesting news. AMD is trying to storm the market with this. Many devs have spoken years back that DX needs to go, the recent slow drive towards Linux and new consoles being made with AMD stuff can change the game market significantly as future multiplatform games probably have a better chance of being optimized with AMD and the new API in mind (it's supposed to allow direct access to the GPU memory, whatever it means).

I doubt there is any chance BIS is going to do anything about it. Also, knowing simulation developers, it seems a realistic picture that 10 years into the future, when DX and Windows become obsolete and a bottleneck for future hardware, simulation devs will only start to notice the need to change their engines.

simulation developers will and have passed on the bottleneck blame to the current GPU/CPU that's on the market instead of admitting that the engine that they are using has reached the end of the road.

[trnapster 12]

I hope Mantle will work with nvidia GPUs (put I doubt it)... it will probably be another proprietary API/Feature like PhysX, TressFX, etc and only a few Devs will feature it in their games

[calin_banc 19]

There is a difference between getting your code in while in development and rewriting it post development

And then you have "evolution". No one said "do it over the weekend". It will take time and careful planing, but it may be doable. Let's not forget there are engines that use different APIs already - DX 9/10/11 + one for each console.

Most likely they may have some sort of agreement with nvidia that will not allow to move into that direction anyway.

I hope Mantle will work with nvidia GPUs (put I doubt it)... it will probably be another proprietary API/Feature like PhysX, TressFX, etc and only a few Devs will feature it in their games

The only closed standard, at least for now, is PhysX and that's the reason GPU accelerated physics never really took of. Tress Fx, Pecks FX and everything else AMD does through Compute is open. The fact that nvidia choose on purpose to sabotage their compute performance is up to her.

Mantle will be a cross platform thing, so even if nvidia will ignore it, probably a lot of developers will slowly adopt it due to the fact that it will run on consoles as well and will make ports a much easier job.

[trnapster 12]

The only closed standard, at least for now, is PhysX and that's the reason GPU accelerated physics never really took of. Tress Fx, Pecks FX and everything else AMD does through Compute is open. The fact that nvidia choose on purpose to sabotage their compute performance is up to her.

Mantle will be a cross platform thing, so even if nvidia will ignore it, probably a lot of developers will slowly adopt it due to the fact that it will run on consoles as well and will make ports a much easier job.

Oh you are right with Tress Fx... but Mantle will indeed be proprietary (and this means it'll most certainly be Radeon exclusive) and I don't know if it will be a good choice (economically speaking) for devs to make a game only with Mantle that will run on Radeons and consoles but will exclude all Geforce owners opposed to make a game with directx that will run on (almost) all Pcs and consoles

EDIT: I just read from a different source that Mantle will be free... there are a few different news stating that Mantle will be free and others that it will be proprietary. I guess we should wait for an official stating of AMD... and some benchmarks of BF4

Edited September 27, 2013 by trnapster

[KING5TON 10]

All frostbite 3 engine games will have it. That's quite a large chunk of big name games from EA.

Battlefield 4, the new Need for Speed, Star wars battlefront, Mirrors edge 2, Dragon age Inquisition and the next Mass effect game.

Those games might not be your personal cup of tea but they are big games that sell very well.

If more developers start using Mantle and the performance increase it proposes is significant then AMD GPUs will have an even bigger price vs performance difference on Nvidia cards than they do currently.

p.s. has anyone brought up bad drivers yet? Can't have a pro AMD thread without some twerp trying to justify their purchase of a rival card :)

[calin_banc 19]

Mantle will be an alternative render path, not excluding DX, at least for the foreseeable future. Cards that will be "compatible" with it, will receive a boost in performance, not only high end ones, but the likes of 77xx as well. It's not like you can't run the game anymore - keep in mind that DX10/11 offers a boost in performance compared to DX9 and not all cards were dx 11, ergo, you could say some were "left out", but that never really happen - except with Crysis 3.

PS: FrostByte and Cry Engine will be used on a lot of games, with Mantle implemented deep into the engines, probably there won't be THAT much of a trouble to "make it work".

[trnapster 12]

but devs actually have to implement Mantle... DX10/11 is merely an update of the existing API

No doubt the Frostbite engine is a huge deal for AMD but there aren't that many games using it... BF3, BF4, C&C, Star Wars Battlefront, MoH, N4S. Thats it. And the fact that no studio outside of EA can license it doesn't help to spread it.

Cry Engine is another story but I haven't read anything yet about Mantle in a future Cry Engine

Edited September 27, 2013 by trnapster

[calin_banc 19]

Each console runs on it's own API + DX on PC as we speak and still there are tons of multiplatform games that run on everyone. Cry Engine can output code real time for all those platforms without programer's additional input. Future engines will probably do just that, more so when the HW and software (API) will be almost the same.

Now, compared to the past when you've had more than one graphic card producer, you have only 2 with an established foundation. The future is nothing like the past.

[cofi0276 1]

Mantle will be an alternative render path, not excluding DX, at least for the foreseeable future. Cards that will be "compatible" with it, will receive a boost in performance, not only high end ones, but the likes of 77xx as well. It's not like you can't run the game anymore

What about the CPUs, i heard that it will take advantage over 8 core cpus?

[calin_banc 19]

Well, a lead programer from Dice said it can scale almost perfectly over 8 core CPU, but I suppose it will be a difference depending on what you put on it. Advanced physics can be proper multithreaded, other code not so much. When you have the grass levels in Crysis 3 a 8 core AMD CPU will be at the same level or a little bit better than a i7 4core 8threaded Intel CPU, but slower where isn't much grass (no grass, less physics). At least you could (and probably you can even now) add the level of destruction from Battlefield or Red Faction to ArmA.

The thing is to use a proper physics engine. PhysiX is known that has a hindered performance on CPU or at least lacks proper multithread behavior (although version 3.x should negate some of it at least) compared to havok, destruction, geo-mode, DMM, etc.

Anyway, we shall see in December what Mantle has in store and further down the line as well.

Edited September 27, 2013 by calin_banc

[gammadust 12]

I'm skeptical of Mantle purpose as an alternative to DirectX, afawk it will stay exclusive to AMD cards...

I never understood why OpenGL, given it being both software and hardware platform agnostic, never got more adopted by developers. Even considering the feature set against DirectX. (am i willingly being naive?)

[jumpinghubert 48]

lets wait and look whats the advantage in bf3 for example. Till yet now nothing than marketing brabbling.

[calin_banc 19]

I'm skeptical of Mantle purpose as an alternative to DirectX, afawk it will stay exclusive to AMD cards...

I never understood why OpenGL, given it being both software and hardware platform agnostic, never got more adopted by developers. Even considering the feature set against DirectX. (am i willingly being naive?)

Direct X was less "buggy", had better documentation and it was easier to use in general - developers were accustomed with it.

[dayglow 2]

simulation developers will and have passed on the bottleneck blame to the current GPU/CPU that's on the market instead of admitting that the engine that they are using has reached the end of the road.

You are right, it really lags compared to the other games out there that render the same view distance and have the same map size.