Weapon sway

[bez 10]

I think the sway is way too much, and i can say that also from having 3 years experience as an infantry soldier.

ArmA3 sway is annoying and it just makes me rage quit the game, it has no logic or consistency what so ever,

it's totally random stupid moving all over the place.

I could hit perfectly fine in OFP and ArmA2 (after some practice) but this game is just freaking annoying,

also because the AI is like aimbots and take too many bullets compared to older games (liquid armor my ass).

to be honest, i personally am VERY disappointed with ArmA3, all that have been added is EYE CANDY,

all the important stuff that should have been fixed from ArmA2 still remains.

I knew it will be like that but I had hope, i believed, but I see I was right, same old BS.

[Tacti-Cool 10]

Been playing/loving BIS games since OPF demo, so I know a little whereof I speak...

Theres the old credibility statement again.

[yxman 90]

I think the sway is way too much, and i can say that also from having 3 years experience as an infantry soldier.

ArmA3 sway is annoying and it just makes me rage quit the game, it has no logic or consistency what so ever,

it's totally random stupid moving all over the place.

I could hit perfectly fine in OFP and ArmA2 (after some practice) but this game is just freaking annoying,

also because the AI is like aimbots and take too many bullets compared to older games (liquid armor my ass).

to be honest, i personally am VERY disappointed with ArmA3, all that have been added is EYE CANDY,

all the important stuff that should have been fixed from ArmA2 still remains.

I knew it will be like that but I had hope, i believed, but I see I was right, same old BS.

THIS. Fix it to Arma2(ACE) style

[dnk 13]

I don't see what everybodies problem is with the sway? There is none when you are prone, and when you are crouching and standing, its significantly less then I've ever experienced in real life. There's a reason why almost all infantry combat takes place at sub 300m in real life, and it because shooting people is really hard. Take for example, the current British Army rifle marksmanship test. At 400m, you only need to get 3 hits from 9 shots, and that's from prone. And the most commonly failed range is 200m because there is shooting from kneeling and standing. In game, if you hold your breath, its entirely possible to hit targets at 200m, the sway drops enough. Add onto that, that this is not range shooting, but battlefield shooting and the amount of sway is entirely reasonable.

Yes. Too little, actually.

Anyone who's ran up and down a terrain laden with a Bergen, webbing and a rifle will know that unless you've led down in the prone position and got your breath back your weapon will be all over the place. If you fire without regaining your breath and composure you won't be able to hit a farm door.

The weapon sway is in my opinion very forgiving, as the development team have given us super fit soldiers who's heart rate normalises in record time. In the real world if you had physically done what your character has done you wouldn't even be able to focus on the target through the adenine pumping through your system and the sweat pouring down your brow into your eyes.

Yes. Too forgiving, really.

Crouching, in my experience, doesn't make for a steadier weapon by all that much, unless you really hunker down and settle into a stance.

The biggest issue is that the AI doesn't have to deal with the same stuff, and as a result tends to be a much better shot than most if not all players are really capable of being.

Personally, I find standing to be easiest for aim; if I tuck my right arm in hard, it's a very solid base. I usually wobble a ton crouching because my legs have to work a lot more to keep me in such an unnatural position. Seems to be my own quirk, though. Maybe I need to do more lunges or something or I've just never found my optimal crouched body position...

[galzohar 31]

IRL If you wobble crouching then you are doing it wrong. Crouching properly is noticeably more stable than standing, though not a world of a difference like prone is.

[dnk 13]

Actually, I prefer standing to prone, too :) Prone is too restrictive. I most likely have poor form outside of standing. Whatever, I'm accurate enough standing, and I'm likely to never be in combat, so it's not terribly important. Standing is most comfortable, so I'm sticking with that.

[progamer 14]

THIS. Fix it to Arma2(ACE) style

BI fixed it to VBS2 style!

[-Coulum- 35]

I think the weapon sway is very balanced at this point for a good ratio of "realism" and "arcadyness". Its just hard large enough to prevent instant "sight up and headshot", but just smooth and slow enough to make you not feel out of control. From a results perspective, it is not realistically hard enough, because as people have mentioned real life soldiers are not nailing targets as easily as players in arma even in shooting ranges:

Take for example, the current British Army rifle marksmanship test. At 400m, you only need to get 3 hits from 9 shots, and that's from prone. And the most commonly failed range is 200m because there is shooting from kneeling and standing. In game, if you hold your breath, its entirely possible to hit targets at 200m, the sway drops enough. Add onto that, that this is not range shooting, but battlefield shooting and the amount of sway is entirely reasonable.

This is not entirely because of sway but also because of inperfect trigger pulls, slight sight misalignment etc. but the fact still remains - shooting in arma is much easier than shooting in reality especially shooting quickly in reality. I know there are some very good shooters here that would disagree because "they can keep a foot grouping at 300 metre with ironsights" but you will have to accept that in arma you are not you but rather an average grunt. And they can't do that in the midst of combat when they don't have all the time in the world to line up such a shot.

I say keep it how it is and let mods further customize it to ones personal preference or even better keep it as is for regular difficulty and have it scale up or down base on difficulty.

[yxman 90]

The problem is the weapon sway compared to non affected ai, in PVP its ok, everyone has to handle it, against this cheating 1shot ai, its just no fun. Thought this is a COOP game vs AI, they should rename it to Sway3.

[wipman 1]

Hi, i agree that the sway has been improved alot from the ArmA2, but againist the AI is too much. The AI can land perfect headshots on you at any range in 0'5, while you've to aim... hold your breath... control the recoil... and pray, to connect more than 2 shots on a target beyond the 50m; it should be reduced at the 50% of the actual sway to allow us to fight well the AI's aimbot. Let's C ya

[-Coulum- 35]

The problem is the weapon sway compared to non affected ai, in PVP its ok, everyone has to handle it, against this cheating 1shot ai, its just no fun.

Hi, i agree that the sway has been improved alot from the ArmA2, but againist the AI is too much. The AI can land perfect headshots on you at any range in 0'5, while you've to aim... hold your breath... control the recoil... and pray, to connect more than 2 shots on a target beyond the 50m;

Yes! and Yes!

it should be reduced at the 50% of the actual sway to allow us to fight well the AI's aimbot. Let's C ya

No!!

The issue is the ai, not the sway. What is it everyone is complaining about with ai?

"Ai are too accurate, making firefights unrealistic"

So should we also make the player too accurate to further reduce the realism? No. The solution is to bring the ai down to a more human level. You kill two birds with one stone. The ai are more realistic and less terminator, and people aren't at a disadvantage for having realistic limitations. If we simply make the player more accurate to balance the ai, it will just make firefights even more unrealistic.

And (I know I've said it a dozen times) this is not just a simple decrease in ai accuracy. That will help but it won't make things realistic and still challenging (ai will become to inaccurate in certain situations). The solution is to make the ai accuracy dynamic and based on the situation they are in. Just like a human's is. Not only will it keep the challenge and realism it will also make tactics actually work on them.

At this point the most important thing for weapon sway is to make fatigue have a realistic effect on it and make bipods and weapon resting.

[UltimateBawb 1]

The AI isn't too hard. Seriously, you want the AI to not be able to hit you at all? Think about it: you can easily take out more than one AI in a life under equal conditions. The AI is incredibly easy compared to a living player, I can guarantee you that.

[galzohar 31]

Don't compare yourself to poorly configured AI. That's not how making a realistic game work. You need to compare yourself to real soldiers, and then if the AI breaks it then they should fix the AI rather than the player. Or you can fix the AI yourself by setting their skill lower in a mission script.

[John Kozak 14]

The AI isn't too hard. Seriously, you want the AI to not be able to hit you at all? Think about it: you can easily take out more than one AI in a life under equal conditions. The AI is incredibly easy compared to a living player, I can guarantee you that.

You have never tried Veteran or Elite difficulty.

[-Coulum- 35]

You have never tried Veteran or Elite difficulty.

He probably has and does actually. The ai in certain circumstances (right after getting hit during heavy incoming fire/casualties etc.) is way to accurate. But for the most part they are actually not that insane. I find that if you use cover they actually are for the most part quite balanced in 200 - 500m range engagements. You can't stick your head out of cover several ai are watching and expect it not to get blown before you snipe them. I find if you play patiently and use team work to unpin your teamates the ai accuracy isn't really that noticeable accept for certain instances where you'd expect the situation around them to degrade their aim severely.

Anyhow thats for another topic. The fact is ai is the problem, not weaponsway.

Don't compare yourself to poorly configured AI. That's not how making a realistic game work. You need to compare yourself to real soldiers, and then if the AI breaks it then they should fix the AI rather than the player. Or you can fix the AI yourself by setting their skill lower in a mission script.

Exactly

[UltimateBawb 1]

You have never tried Veteran or Elite difficulty.

I only play on elite. Please.

[John Kozak 14]

He probably has and does actually. The ai in certain circumstances (right after getting hit during heavy incoming fire/casualties etc.) is way to accurate. But for the most part they are actually not that insane. I find that if you use cover they actually are for the most part quite balanced in 200 - 500m range engagements. You can't stick your head out of cover several ai are watching and expect it not to get blown before you snipe them. I find if you play patiently and use team work to unpin your teamates the ai accuracy isn't really that noticeable accept for certain instances where you'd expect the situation around them to degrade their aim severely

Not really. I agree with the points about AI lacking reaction to fire, but. What you're describing is "teamwork over accuracy" win, and doesn't mean AI is less skilled in shooting than player. On Elite, AI is much more capable in shooting performance than player, but is lacking in other areas - that's why the situation is winnable. What galzohar is talking about, however:

The AI isn't too hard. Seriously, you want the AI to not be able to hit you at all? Think about it: you can easily take out more than one AI in a life under equal conditions. The AI is incredibly easy compared to a living player, I can guarantee you that.

is wrong. Making a headshot from 1st try with a Mk20 with ironsights at 400 meters (which is a pretty common situation) is not something a player can achieve :) And if the player will be behaving same as AI, he will lose in every engagement - just because he'll be worse shot than AI. Currently, the player can win only by tactics and tricks.

________________________________________

Back to the topic of sway. While current state of weapon sway may be realistic - I don't possess experimental data to support or refute such point yet - it is certainly annoying for both old players and newcomers. In my opinion, it just makes shooting at distances feel frustrating.

While I support "realism over balance" motto, I can't help but note that without other features which are complementing that (bipods, weapon resting, wind affecting the shots, angle-based elevation/windage instead of distance-based) current sway gives too much punishment without a reward.

Simple benchmark: hitting a target at 1400 meters is very hard currently because of sway. IRL? well, if you have a CheyTac Intervention with their trademarked ballistic computer, in no-wind environment it will be an easy task. And no, don't tell me about "winds which are always present in real life". In A2OA+ACE, I could have reliably hit a target at such distance, provided a Kestrel and a good spotter. Whatever the justification for it may be provided - current sway just detracts from the fun, in my opinion. This is especially hurting given the BIS's direction to "new player adoption" - which cut out many of other undeniable realism features, but somehow left one of arguable ones.

[maturin 12]

Hitting a target at 1400m is easy in the game too. No sniper would ever take that shot with the rifle supported by his arms alone.

What is this nonsense about the player being at a serious disadvantage? If you lose against an even number of AI, you really, really suck.

[iceman77 18]

The only complaint I have regarding sway, is when using the rangefinder / binocular. It's a chore in itself, a small battle if you will, to maintain a target lol.

[John Kozak 14]

Hitting a target at 1400m is easy in the game too. No sniper would ever take that shot with the rifle supported by his arms alone.

What is this nonsense about the player being at a serious disadvantage? If you lose against an even number of AI, you really, really suck.

Is it an attempt to insult?

[galzohar 31]

it is certainly annoying for both old players and newcomers. In my opinion, it just makes shooting at distances feel frustrating.

As it should be. Move closer/flank or use a mounted weapon on a vehicle.

[John Kozak 14]

As it should be. Move closer/flank or use a mounted weapon on a vehicle.

Counter-example: defending a hill with 5 players while being assaulted by 10 AI. You can't maneuver in such situation. And while "by the book" you are on par with attackers, in fact players will be at disadvantage.

Edited November 29, 2013 by DarkWanderer

[maturin 12]

When you're outnumbered 2 to 1, you don't expect to magically have fire superiority just because you're lying on a pile of dirt. Which book is this?

[-Coulum- 35]

Making a headshot from 1st try with a Mk20 with ironsights at 400 meters (which is a pretty common situation) is not something a player can achieve And if the player will be behaving same as AI, he will lose in every engagement - just because he'll be worse shot than AI. Currently, the player can win only by tactics and tricks.

First off Ai headshotting you at 400m isn't that common. But lets assume it is. Like I said, the problem is the situation. An ai shooting with ironsights at 400m should be less accurate I'll agree. But now give that ai an SOS and he is struggling to hit at 5-600 metres while the player is just picking off baddies left right and centre. If you ever play with ai you'll notice that you make for a good 40-60% of their casualties. And this is not because you are smart its because the ai can't hit and you can. Its all situational. The ai does have too good accuracy some times. But many other times it doesn't have good enough accuracy. I think where we sit now is a pretty fair balance until a system that dynamically changes ai skill is put in.

hitting a target at 1400 meters is very hard currently because of sway. IRL? well, if you have a CheyTac Intervention with their trademarked ballistic computer, in no-wind environment it will be an easy task.

What? Yeah for an experienced sniper. But for your average grunt. Not so much. 1400 metre is along way and even hitting that with a laser would be hard. I do agree that we need more tools such as bipods to counter sway though.

it is certainly annoying for both old players and newcomers. In my opinion, it just makes shooting at distances feel frustrating.

As it should be. Seeing the enemy is half the battle. Now you have to come up with a plan to get close and kill him. Its what makes things interesting and what is done reality.

[metalcraze 290]

In my opinion, it just makes shooting at distances feel frustrating.

And that's great. It certainly removes the ability to snipe people with assault rifles at 400m.

Simple benchmark: hitting a target at 1400 meters is very hard currently because of sway. IRL? well, if you have a CheyTac Intervention with their trademarked ballistic computer, in no-wind environment it will be an easy task.

It is much easier in ArmA3 when you are prone. Snipers don't fire at 1.5km from crouch/standing stance.

Sway is not enough. We need wind to remove the ability for snipers to make easy hits at 500m+

And if the player will be behaving same as AI, he will lose in every engagement - just because he'll be worse shot than AI.

False. AIs are very bad shots at anything above 200m. I can take a generic HAMR and easily wipe a bunch of AIs by simply pointing its optic crosshair at AI and hitting fire while AIs will simply spray and pray.

Try putting AIs in your own squad and you will be surprised how bad they are. It may take half a mag for one to put down an enemy while for the player it takes 3-4 shots at most (and only because of soldiers sometimes soaking bullets due to broken ArmA3 armor system)

Edited November 29, 2013 by metalcraze