AH-64D Apache Longbow for ArmA2 by Nodunit and Franze

[nodunit 397]

I couldn't say for certain as I do not have a track IR but I keep my button assigned to a key or mostly my joystick, so that I may move the mouse freely, use my thumb on a joystick button to interact and as a result not impede the movement.

[ricnunes 0]

Hi, first of all thanks for the v1.2 patch!

I noticed in the v1.2 changelog that one thing that was supposed to be fixed was "cockpit glass invulnerability." but regarding this I noticed that there are still issues:

- While there are improvements on this regard, if you hit the pilot side windows at the head level the glass in never penetrated but if you fire at the pilot's torso level than the glass can be penetrated (which is an improvement regarding previous versions). Regarding the gunner's side windows I didn't see improvements, since the glass is impenetrable but you can kill the gunner if you hit the frame just below the glass (just like in previous versions).

---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:45 ----------

I use a Track IR and so, it directs the IHADSS movements. Perfect :)

But to point on/select cockpit buttons, it's very difficult.

Is there a way to continue to use my Track IR to control IHADSS movements but use mouse to click on buttons (MFD, switches, ...) ?

What I do is pressing the "*" key (numpad keyboard) and use the mouse to point and select any cockpit button - I do this in any flight sim that I play, anyway and I also use TrackIR.

Note that moving the mouse after pressing the "*" key doesn't disable the TrackIR but it may "un-center" your view, but you can always press the "5" key in the numpad keyboard to re-center your view again.

[nodunit 397]

We'll look into the glass some more, what were the calibers you were using?

Edited September 15, 2013 by NodUnit

[johnnygitarr 7]

hi nodunit & franze,

i would like to say 10000 thnx for your release, for your effort, time,

for all youve done for this mod.

i love to fly in arma and my favourite heli was always the ah64.

since the first day if heard, there are two guys out there, who develop

a mod of the ah64, since these day i visit every day your threat here,

watched all the videos on youtube. read all the lines in this forum (english is not my

native language and im not very skilled translations). big thnx, i love the mod so much.

1.

i hope you find time/passion to bring the whole ah64 experience to arma 3.

render to picture, maybe the controls from the autonomous vehicles can be modded

to use it to control a ai pilot, physix, ... some good things to play with, or?

i've got some questions/ ideas

2.

how i use the ir jammers? is the process all automatic, or do i have give the system some userfeedback.

can you explain the jammer in the online manual.

3.

is it possible to give the pilot the same opical tads system as the gunner has, with the same features?

the opical system of the pilot isnt very useful. i cant move the camera of the pilot system if i use it in autohover with freelook activated. ths system doesnt have any zoom system and no flir. it feels like the camera is locked to the body to the chopper.

4.

my feeling says that the internal pilot view is a bit to low and a bit to far front in the cockpit. or the fov is a bit to small.

dont know only a feeling!?

5.

i often have the problem, that the hellfires miss the targets. i use arma 2 co latest version and no beta patch

i have good sight to targets. both firing mods loal/lobl miss. mostly only a few meters. dont know what im doing wrong.

6.

yes, bring the option for metric calculations of height and speed, as spoken in swissmavericks twitch channel.

its less realistc, but whos gamer is trained in aereal stuff like that?

7.

the green overlay from the iluminated cockpit isnt at the correct position yet.

8.

the flight models feels way to light. specially the less input from the rear rotor at medium speedlevel.

ive never flown a chopper, but is this how a ah64 feels?

i like the arma 3 flight model from the comanche (not realisitc but good balanced for a chopper this size).

i use mouse and keyboard with your mod, maybe i should try joystick.

8.

i like the mod "ai heli control" from fredkatz, maybe you guys can combine your mods. i know i can use it side by side,

but i think combining result in less errors.

looking forward to the future of the mod.

very big thnx

johnny

[HellcatF6F 10]

i've got some questions/ ideas

2.

how i use the ir jammers? is the process all automatic, or do i have give the system some userfeedback.

can you explain the jammer in the online manual.

Switch right MPD (display) to the ASE (Aircraft Survivability Equipment) page and you can turn the jammers on or off manually or select "Man/Auto." You can also select "Autopage" so it will come up when an enemy radar tracks you, if you switch that MPD to another screen. You can either use the Action Menu or crosshair (User Action 20, has to be bound in the game options) to work the system. The jammers only last 60 seconds before a 30 second cooling period.

[franze 196]

hi nodunit & franze,

i would like to say 10000 thnx for your release, for your effort, time,

for all youve done for this mod.

i love to fly in arma and my favourite heli was always the ah64.

since the first day if heard, there are two guys out there, who develop

a mod of the ah64, since these day i visit every day your threat here,

watched all the videos on youtube. read all the lines in this forum (english is not my

native language and im not very skilled translations). big thnx, i love the mod so much.

1.

i hope you find time/passion to bring the whole ah64 experience to arma 3.

render to picture, maybe the controls from the autonomous vehicles can be modded

to use it to control a ai pilot, physix, ... some good things to play with, or?

Render to texture is one of the key items but there are some issues with it so it may not be a totally smooth implementation. We're waiting for ArmA3 to mature a bit more before we focus on it.

i've got some questions/ ideas

2.

how i use the ir jammers? is the process all automatic, or do i have give the system some userfeedback.

can you explain the jammer in the online manual.

IR jammer operation is entirely manual since the Block II depicted here has no means of detecting IR guided missiles. To use both jammers, the right MPD page must be set to ASE, from which you can either use the click action to turn on jammers or use the action menu.

3.

is it possible to give the pilot the same opical tads system as the gunner has, with the same features?

the opical system of the pilot isnt very useful. i cant move the camera of the pilot system if i use it in autohover with freelook activated. ths system doesnt have any zoom system and no flir. it feels like the camera is locked to the body to the chopper.

PNVS is linked to the numpad arrow keys or hardware head tracking for motion. A better control option may exist but that will take some experimenting to find it out - that may be sooner rather than later, pending other experiments.

The camera has limited zoom and relies upon FLIR in order to have a consistent image day or night. The intended usage is for flight and navigation rather than targeting like the gunner.

4.

my feeling says that the internal pilot view is a bit to low and a bit to far front in the cockpit. or the fov is a bit to small.

dont know only a feeling!?

The view is approximately what the pilot gets in the real thing; the FOV is default however.

5.

i often have the problem, that the hellfires miss the targets. i use arma 2 co latest version and no beta patch

i have good sight to targets. both firing mods loal/lobl miss. mostly only a few meters. dont know what im doing wrong.

What distance are you engaging targets from? Minimum recommended launch range is about 1km as any range shorter doesn't give the missile much time to loft upwards.

6.

yes, bring the option for metric calculations of height and speed, as spoken in swissmavericks twitch channel.

its less realistc, but whos gamer is trained in aereal stuff like that?

When you're in the air it's all relative, but we're entertaining a toggle for it.

7.

the green overlay from the iluminated cockpit isnt at the correct position yet.

The cockpit backlighting is a bit off as the primary intended usage is at night; we can probably tighten it down a bit more.

8.

the flight models feels way to light. specially the less input from the rear rotor at medium speedlevel.

ive never flown a chopper, but is this how a ah64 feels?

i like the arma 3 flight model from the comanche (not realisitc but good balanced for a chopper this size).

i use mouse and keyboard with your mod, maybe i should try joystick.

Helicopters are notorious for being twitchy and sensitive on the controls; the Apache is no different in this regard. The advantage is you can perform a wider range of maneuvers without wrecking the aircraft.

8.

i like the mod "ai heli control" from fredkatz, maybe you guys can combine your mods. i know i can use it side by side,

but i think combining result in less errors.

looking forward to the future of the mod.

very big thnx

johnny

I'm not sure but it should work out of the box with this mod?

We look forward to expanding the scope of the addon and introducing new things in the future. :)

[ESheppard 10]

Nod, Franze, I ran into three problems - One is minor and may just be my utter lack of skill; another has to do with the elevation of weapon pylons and is sort of immersion-breaking, and the third is related to the aircraft's shadow while in cockpit view.

I was re-playing the weapons training mission, and got to the section within which I am supposed to take out a tracked vehicle with FFARs. My engagement range was between 2 and 1.5km - I noticed that even though I lined the I-bar perfectly with the cross marking the target when I fired, I didn't succeed in scoring a single hit (Actually landing mid-mission to re-arm and try again). Altogether, I expended about seventy rockets before using a laser-guided hellfire instead. Any tips on accurate rocket engagements? (Acquisition mode auto, scope TADS, airspeed 20-40 knots and hover, 2 rockets per salvo)

The second problem was something I noticed with the way the elevation of rocket pods changes. I was locked on to the BMP, hovering at about eighty to a hundred meters off the water, two kilometers away. I was positioned in such a manner that my pods would have to aim maybe four or five degrees downward to be pointed at the target. However, the pods on the Apache (As I could see them from outside the cockpit) seemed to be aiming downward at around thirty degrees - The result being that when I fired, the rockets seemed to emerge from the top of the pod.

The third problem is the aircraft's shadow. When flying from within the cockpit, neither the longbow radar dome or the weapons mounted on the pylons cast any shadow. If I look left or right out of the cockpit, in fact, I can see the empty edge of the outermost pylon, as though the missiles/rockets aren't really there.

All these issues were on version 1.2

If these issues can't be helped, it's not something I'm going to complain more about - There's still no mod for ArmA 2 that even comes close to this level of detail or quality, and I'm eternally grateful to the two of you for allowing us to download it.

Edited September 16, 2013 by The Coyote

[kimi_uy 135]

Hey franze, I'm experiencing some trouble with the chaingun in v1.2, for no apparent reason i get the audio message "Gun jam" and when i check the WCA page no message is displayed even though the gun is actually jammed.

Another question, when gunner is using the gun, an "RNG" thingy appears in the IHADSS, i know it's some sort or range and i can toggle it with the default zeroing keys but what effect does it have on the gunners performance? Also when i switch to manual fire, this RNG meter doesn't appear anymore.

Another problem i've been having is when I switch to ASE page, I can't change the countermeassure salvo using the crosshair action on the R3 button. Is this because I don't have flares?

Thanks in advance.

[Bushmanni 10]

This is something I have been waiting for ARMA for a long time. Unfortunately it seems to me there's some serious issues with the flight model. I don't know if it's because I'm using joystick and pedals or because of something else. Some of the issues are probably because of the underlying FM code in ARMA that can't be changed by modders. As I don't know what can be changed I just pour out all the main issues the FM has and maybe there's something that can be done to it.

The flight model is way too maneuverable or twitchy. I could roll the chopper 360 in 2 seconds while it should take about 3-4seconds for the real one in airshow confiquration. With full weapons load you shouldn't be able to make a full roll in the Apache as it would look more like a spiral dive. Yaw rate is completely off the charts. I could make a 180 degree pedal turn (0kts, from zero yaw rate to zero yaw rate) in 2 seconds while it should take about 8-9 seconds for the real chopper. Max sideways speed for Apache is somewhere between 50-70 knots (you can barely turn your nose 90 degrees off the flight direction using pedals) but I could achieve only 38. If you start from hover and fly sideways you can go all the way to the 120kts or so as long as you don't let the nose turn towards the flight path at which point it violently snaps to forward. You should be able to turn the nose off the flight direction about 10-20 degrees using pedals even at 120kts like you can with the current FM at 60kts. At slow speed you need to tilt the chopper excessively to achieve lateral acceleration. You should only need small amounts of pitch and roll to make the chopper accelerate or decelerate. Currently it takes about twice the amount of what it should. In general the chopper has way too little angular inertia and especially in yaw axis. Real choppers have to deal with all kinds of physics and aerodynamics phenomena that makes the choppers hard to fly but the controls responses are tuned by the designers to be as easy as possible for the pilot for obvious reasons. Real choppers are twitchy because you need and should make only relatively small maneuvers for normal flying and because the chopper reacts with some delay. They don't have overly sensitive controls.

What I like in the flight model is pull out from dive and high speed maneuvering in general that is actually possible now. The BIS Apache turns ridiculously slow if your speed gets too high. The roll rate is about the same as with airshow Apache at 100kts which is still too much but not ridiculously too much. I suspect this high speed stiffness of all ARMA choppers is a hard coded feature as surely not all ARMA modders would have made their choppers behave the same if they had a choice?

---------- Post added at 17:33 ---------- Previous post was at 17:32 ----------

The system didn't let me include links in my first post so here's some videos of Apaches doing rolls and yaw turns. Note how long it takes to perform these maneuvers, especially yaw turns.

[ricnunes 0]

We'll look into the glass some more, what were the calibers you were using?

Well I used both 5.56mm (with M-16, M-4 and SCAR) and .50 cal (with M-107).

With 5.56mm I had a very hard time to penetrate the windows (at the pilot torso level) which is probably expected and I had almost no difficulty penetrating (again at the pilot torso level and frame below the gunner) with a .50 cal (M-107) which again seems to be expected (except for the gunner's frame part). But if you hit with a .50 cal (and 5.56mm as well) at the pilot's head level or in part of the gunner's side glass it simply doesn't penetrate.

---------- Post added at 18:59 ---------- Previous post was at 18:38 ----------

We'll entertain some changes to the mission, but no guarantees. Just wait til you get to Hallowed Ground; then I suspect you will hate us even more. :)

I now reached the Hallowed Ground and yes I HATE the mission (but not you, rest assured LoL). Please don't get me wrong but I simply won't waste hours of my life passing a mission that's almost impossible not only because the enemies involved but mainly because the UH-60 departs much sooner than you can (this was already mentioned by someone before) and there's no control or orders that you can have over the helicopter (something that would certainly happen in real life -> such as don't go there or wait here or something along those lines).

What I did was, unpacked the campaign missions (unpbo) then opened the mission with the editor and added a wait trigger to a waypoint (before entering the "dangerous airspace") which is activated by radio Alpha channel (only after using radio - Alpha is when the helicopter goes towards the pickup point and resumes the rest of it's mission). By personal experience with this modification this mission was still HARD AS HELL and I had to try several times to pass it (just like you pretend) but it doesn't make it almost impossible and at the same time gives the player some time for planning which is IMO always interesting and important to have in ANY KIND of mission.

IMO, I would advise you to make something like that - One thing is to loose because you were shot down by the enemy and another very different thing is to almost always loose a mission because the UH-60 is a "Kamikaze" that doesn't even wait for you to provide the pretended escort!

[ratnl 27]

You guys made a master piece. Great add-on. Ever thought of creating this mod for DCS the model is there but with this cockpit it would be awesome

Verstuurd vanaf mijn HTC One X+ met Tapatalk 4

[nodunit 397]

The third problem is the aircraft's shadow. When flying from within the cockpit, neither the longbow radar dome or the weapons mounted on the pylons cast any shadow. If I look left or right out of the cockpit, in fact, I can see the empty edge of the outermost pylon, as though the missiles/rockets aren't really there.

All these issues were on version 1.2

If these issues can't be helped, it's not something I'm going to complain more about - There's still no mod for ArmA 2 that even comes close to this level of detail or quality, and I'm eternally grateful to the two of you for allowing us to download it.

The lack of pylon weaponry and radar shadow is due to me accidentally evicting them from the pilot LOD, this will be fixed in the next update along with the cockpit shadows in general, mostly seen by the floating shadow around the glass divided and the CPG having floating button shadows but none for the hand grips or ORT. The large gap in the pylon is a carry over from when the pilot LOD used a proxy kit at a time when the polycount was too high to fit the actual model in due to the overall detail, the entire mesh uses old Uv's which is why when you look at it there is 0 detail, from the pitot tube being green instead of silver and there being no black paint on the wing.

That said, even so I can't garuntee how much you'll see of the radars shadow due to the fact that most things in the cockpit are project shadows as opposed to only the canopy like the default apache.

...

The agility tests were taken from this

and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vELlxOV_PRI the aircraft was originally built around A model maneuverability with added weight to the front for the EFABs and to be highly responsive to pilot touch for much better nap of earth flying T

hat may be proving a problem though as I've seen several people reporting they had to set their joystick sensitivity to zero to compensate.

As far as I am aware Arma's flight models also don't simulate drag which would play a huge roll what agility an aircraft does and does not have. There is also no unloading your rotors (nevermind I just discovered that regardless of what you are doing, going about 110 and achieving ROTOR RPM HIGH will drop you) or damaging them which is something you could do in take on helicopter if you were excessive with your acrobatics.

We can't assign unique weighting to the weapons or a depleting weight to fuel which is something we're hoping to explore in the next iteration (not patch but the next full on upgrade) A middle ground or something like it might be achieveable between default aircraft (UH-60, not a chance the BI apache) and current form but that depends on wether or not the flight model is to be changed, and what that would entail for low speed flight and response.

(Post modified due to better answers for some questions below)

Edited September 17, 2013 by NodUnit

[franze 196]

I'll try to answer these one by one, been a long day at work.

Nod, Franze, I ran into three problems - One is minor and may just be my utter lack of skill; another has to do with the elevation of weapon pylons and is sort of immersion-breaking, and the third is related to the aircraft's shadow while in cockpit view...

Rockets are the pinnacle of modern weapon technology, I don't see how you could be missing.

Seriously, the rockets are actually scripted to disperse within a relatively large radius which we noticed from a lot of rocket firing videos. Combined with the auto tracking being on a best-guess basis and rockets are not very precise weapons. They are very sensitive to helicopter vertical movement and helicopter pitch. The best results tend to come from minimizing the angle the pods have to elevate while simultaneously keeping vertical motion at a minimum. A touch of forward speed helps as well. In addition, the rockets are not very powerful, the M151 warheads especially. I recommend getting within 1km of your target to get the best impact as well.

The pylons have a maximum movement limit of about 20 degrees overall; +5 above the centerline and -15 below it. There is some odd thing that happens as a result of the scripting stuff we have to do to grab the rockets that makes them not follow the right plane of sight with regard to pylon motion which makes them seem off. It's something I meant to investigate more but didn't get around to it.

Hey franze, I'm experiencing some trouble with the chaingun in v1.2...

This was something I didn't fully implement and document with v1.2; if you release the trigger without following through with a burst limit, there's a probability the gun will jam. This becomes greater as you exceed 100 rounds and start overheating the gun.

The RNG setting is for the CPG to manually set gun range when the gun is tied to the TADS. The pilot cannot manually set the gun range when using manual fire (for the purposes of this addon at least), which is why you get the "P-GUN" message in place of the RNG setting.

The ASE page chaff/flare setting and countermeasure salvo are growth positions. Currently they just track what your selected countermeasure setting is (ctrl+R key), which by extension is how the pilot switches between countermeasures. In the future we may override the BIS system entirely and simply link to the countermeasures key with a custom system.

This is something I have been waiting for ARMA for a long time. Unfortunately it seems to me there's some serious issues with the flight model...

The control setup I use is a CH Products stick + throttle + pedals, so you could say that's what it's designed for. Unfortunately we are limited in what we can control with the flight model in terms of mass, inertia, etc. and the result is you have a kind of magic to work in order to get everything to play nice together. The trick was to get adequate speed, maneuverability, and sensitivity so that it could be fast enough, agile enough, and hostile enough when damage is taken. I won't say changes are impossible, just depends on what compromises we're willing to make.

In short, we're handicapped by the way BI chose to handle helicopter handling characteristics, which is exclusively in the realm of mass and balance.

Well I used both 5.56mm (with M-16, M-4 and SCAR) and .50 cal (with M-107)....

I think we'll have to rebuild the fire geometry LOD for the glass, some very funky issues going on there. The smaller calibers won't penetrate well but the heavier ones should do so relatively easily.

As for the campaign, I do think I'll add a hold command for Hallowed Ground as you suggest, but Pin Drop I may pursue a more complex solution. In the short term if you want to edit the missions in the campaign I don't see any problem with that.

FWIW the campaign missions were modeled after similar missions in Comanche Gold, which I felt fit better given the constricted space we had to work with on the default maps. At one point in time a couple of larger 40x40km maps were planned which would have allowed for more playing room, but these never came to fruition due to the workload required.

You guys made a master piece. Great add-on. Ever thought of creating this mod for DCS the model is there but with this cockpit it would be awesome

DCS has always felt too restrictive to me; it seems to do an excellent job at simulating individual systems and aircraft, but a poor job at immersion. I've noticed this since LOMAC was released and the world always felt empty without having much to go on. I'm also not sure how well it would go across in DCS considering that we don't have access to every single classified manual that the DCS folks seem to demand in order to get an aircraft into the game.

[Bushmanni 10]

Thanks for the explanation. ACE 2 Apache FM had a pretty nice feeling to it so I suggest you tweak the FM towards that. The time it takes to point your nose to a target is very crucial performance figure for a combat chopper and the current FM is way off. I would suggest trying to tweak the flight model so as to prevent too quick turns. Especially the pedals turn the chopper way too fast.

[ricnunes 0]

Thanks for the explanation. ACE 2 Apache FM had a pretty nice feeling to it so I suggest you tweak the FM towards that. The time it takes to point your nose to a target is very crucial performance figure for a combat chopper and the current FM is way off. I would suggest trying to tweak the flight model so as to prevent too quick turns. Especially the pedals turn the chopper way too fast.

Sorry, but did you ever play a high fidelity helicopter sim before?? ACE2 doesn't count as a high fidelity helicopter neither do I consider it to have a good flight model fidelity for aircraft (for both rotary and fixed-wing aircraft)!

If you play any high fidelity helicopter sim such as DCS:Ka-50 or the modded EECH which are much more realistic than ACE2 will ever be (and probably any other ArmA2 helicopter mod, regarding flight model) and between the most realistic helicopter flight sims available in the PC you'll see that if you use full pedals the helicopter WILL TURN FAST, specially at low speed and/or hover! That's how helicopters "work" or fly in real life. ArmA2 in both vanilla or ACE2 mod got the tail rotor modeling very, very wrong! Or also, did you play Take On Helicopters, which like everyone knows has a much better FM than ArmA2 (and any ArmA2 mod)? You'll see that the tail rotor authority is very sensitive indeed!

If I have to criticize the pedal turn (tail rotor control) in this mod I would say that above 60knots there should be some authority with the pedals although not as sensitive as below 60 knots. But in general terms this tail rotor authority with this Apache Addon is IMO quite good and MUCH BETTER than anything that I played before in ArmA2 including ACE2.

Also like it was said before, don't forget that the Apache is an extremely agile helicopter. So what do you mean with "tweak the flight model so as to prevent too quick turns"??

If you mean hover and turning too fast with the pedals (even becoming a bit uncontrollable) that's very realistic indeed. Indeed if you hover, specially at high altitudes and use the pedals (specially too much) your helicopter can or could likely suffer from a retreating blade stall which BTW, isn't modeled in this mod (or in any other ArmA2 mod that I know of).

And NO, it's not easy to fly helicopters, they are the hardest type of aircraft to fly and control...

---------- Post added at 18:57 ---------- Previous post was at 18:36 ----------

As for the campaign, I do think I'll add a hold command for Hallowed Ground as you suggest, but Pin Drop I may pursue a more complex solution. In the short term if you want to edit the missions in the campaign I don't see any problem with that.

FWIW the campaign missions were modeled after similar missions in Comanche Gold, which I felt fit better given the constricted space we had to work with on the default maps. At one point in time a couple of larger 40x40km maps were planned which would have allowed for more playing room, but these never came to fruition due to the workload required.

For what's worth I'm enjoying the campaign missions very much since it has some very original missions (for example I enjoyed very much the one that you must save those 2 pilots, yourself - very original indeed), with the exception of those 2 (Pin Drop and Hallowed Ground) but like I said the main reason was the UH-60 more than the enemies themselves, so a hold command for the UH-60 would certainly be very welcome.

DCS has always felt too restrictive to me; it seems to do an excellent job at simulating individual systems and aircraft, but a poor job at immersion. I've noticed this since LOMAC was released and the world always felt empty without having much to go on. I'm also not sure how well it would go across in DCS considering that we don't have access to every single classified manual that the DCS folks seem to demand in order to get an aircraft into the game.

I must say that I completely agree! One of the reasons why I enjoy playing with the Helicopters in ArmA2 (even before this addon) despite it's limitations (arcadish flight model, very arcade avionics specially sensors, simplified damage mode, etc...) it's the infantry modeling and their behaviour - the AI infantry ability to engage you like real infantry, it uses cover like real infantry, it boards and unloads from helicopters like real infantry, etc...

DCS, while not being the worse combat flight sim regarding infantry modeling (perhaps between the best regarding this) it doesn't come close to ArmA2 infantry modelling and since helicopters work very closely with infantry, you get the picture, I guess...

And IMO this awesome mod solves the problem of arcadish flight model, very arcade avionics specially sensors, simplified damage mode, etc... regarding the AH-64D Apache helicopter in ArmA2! Now I just wish that all other helicopters were modelled like this AH-64D but I know that's a bit of dreaming... (well dreaming doesn't cost anything, does it?)

[Bushmanni 10]

Sorry, but did you ever play a high fidelity helicopter sim before?? ACE2 doesn't count as a high fidelity helicopter neither do I consider it to have a good flight model fidelity for aircraft (for both rotary and fixed-wing aircraft)!

If you play any high fidelity helicopter sim such as DCS:Ka-50 or the modded EECH which are much more realistic ...

I mainly play DCS and I wouldn't consider any other titles FMs as an example of realistic FM. Most people don't have enough education to realize how accurate the DCS Ka-50 flight model is. I have tried modded EECH which was plain crap compared to even the original EECH FM. ACE 2 Apache FM is the best and most real feeling FM so far in ARMA and also performs closest to realistic performance parameters. As I'm aware there's some inherent limitations in ARMA FM but I don't know exactly what they are I proposed it as an example of good balance with different performance parameters. If you read my previous post about some maneuver tests I made with the AH-64D FM and compared those values to ones measured from Apache videos, you can see a huge difference. You should note also that Ka-50 is considered more maneuverable than AH-64 according to US Army flight tests and it's performance values measured from DCS are about what I described as desired target values. We can argue to the end of the world about subjective feel of the FM but with numbers you are talking about something concrete and measurable. You should also read more carefully what I wrote as I didn't say choppers are easy to fly but that they don't have oversensitive controls like this FM has.

Could you explain how too much pedal use at high altitude can cause a retreating blade stall as helicopter aerodynamics books don't know the phenomena?

[ricnunes 0]

"Modded EECH is plain crap compared to even the original EECH FM", are you real or joking??? I must admit that's between the weirdest thing that I ever read around these forums - If there's one thing that the modded EECH improves VERY much over the original is the Flight Model.

Regarding the retreating blade stall, this happens when a helicopter is hovering too much over a certain place because the air becomes saturated which causes the blade stall. If you use pedals much when hovering the air will become saturated much sooner which could cause the blade stall sooner. Don't tell me that this never happened to you in DCS:KA-50??

Or don't tell me that if you apply full pedals in KA-50 that the helicopter doesn't turn fast as it does in with this mod?? If you say no, than there's something odd on your part (or you aren't applying full pedals, or you don't use full realism setting in KA-50, or you're having problems with your controller).

Yes, the KA-50 flight model is very accurate and I know that, perhaps the most accurate helicopter flight sim, at least regarding coaxial rotor helicopters but one thing I can guarantee to you, simulations such as the modded EECH, Jane's Longbow 2 or Search And Rescue aren't that less realistic in terms of flight model than DCS:KA-50 as you're claiming! Actually after my experience with the modded EECH, Jane's Longbow 2 and Search And Rescue I didn't have any difficulty in adapting and flying the KA-50 in DCS:KA-50.

Also note that there are considerable differences between coaxial rotor helicopters and "conventional" main rotor and tail rotor helicopters and as such those differences are probably reflected in both DCS:KA-50 and modded EECH (for example) so one must exercise caution when comparing both sims, for example....

[ataribaby 54]

Retreating blade stall is not cos hovering on one place too long or something like that its cos forward speed in forward flight and one side of rotor dish starting stall. Next time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreating_blade_stall

Maybe you mean Vortex Ring that happens if you descent too fast in hover or slow flight.

Both this effects EECH model even in vanilla version.

[franze 196]

I do believe that ACE doesn't have a custom FM for their AH-64 as they do not have access to the model for it, in which case they'd be limited to the stock BIS FM. Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

Regardless, ArmA2 isn't exactly the best when it comes to helicopter flight modeling, so expecting DCS fidelity or even EECH fidelity out of it is quite a stretch. As I stated before, the handling we have now is a result of compromises and getting into a spot that we felt was acceptable. I sincerely doubt everyone will be happy with it but for the most part it does what we want it to.

ArmA2 does have a kind of retreating blade stall effect in that your collective and cyclic controls are dulled the faster you go; it's not true to the effect but it does seem to serve the intended purpose - diminishing your cyclic controls at high speed.

[noubernou 77]

We might have tweaked some values in the Apache config, but I don't think we've really touched it and we certainly haven't modded in our own FM besides things like autorotation and such... At least as far as I am aware of.

[ricnunes 0]

Retreating blade stall is not cos hovering on one place too long or something like that its cos forward speed in forward flight and one side of rotor dish starting stall. Next time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreating_blade_stall

Maybe you mean Vortex Ring that happens if you descent too fast in hover or slow flight.

Both this effects EECH model even in vanilla version.

Yes, you're correct ataribaby and I stand corrected. Thanks for the correction.

Inded I confused Retreating blade stall with Vortex Ring. Anyway, Vortex Ring is also modeled in the EECH (at least in the modded version, althrough I'm pretty sure that the original EECH also modeled Vortex Ring).

[Bushmanni 10]

My main grief with vanilla ARMA AH-64 FM was too slow turning, especially in pitch and bank. ACE 2 AH-64 fixed that while it didn't/couldn't fix the high speed stiffness or any other problems but that alone made a big difference. Now the AH-64D went crazy with maneuverability which is just as bad (IMHO) as not enough maneuverability. I don't expect any fancy FM features from ARMA chopper, but that the basic performance figures are sensible.

[ataribaby 54]

Yes, you're correct ataribaby and I stand corrected. Thanks for the correction.

Inded I confused Retreating blade stall with Vortex Ring. Anyway, Vortex Ring is also modeled in the EECH (at least in the modded version, althrough I'm pretty sure that the original EECH also modeled Vortex Ring).

Yes vortex ring comes into my mind immediately when I read your post and you are right Enemy Engaged series have both effects even in vanilla. Its perfectly described in both game manuals. It was times when manuals had real value.

[scfan42 0]

We're not sure what to do on pilots yet. I personally would like to have some form of custom pilot with IHADSS as opposed to the standard Arma pilot, they just don't look the same without those big monocle helmets. As for the other helicopters ehh, I'd rather not say yes we'll make this or no we won't make that because anything is possible and its more fun to be a surprise.

Fair enough, just wanted to add in that if you guys do decide on a UH-60, I can try to provide nearly any non-restricted reference you want, even NSNs on the rivets! :P

Another question, does the Block II not incorporate the 200-gallon CEFS (Crashworthy External Fuel System) tanks at all? I wouldn't feel very safe with ERFS tanks that pump hot bleed air into a tank of JP8! :P

For some background, it seems AH-64Ds are a lot more standardized than UH-60s, such as no Block IIs having CMWS. While with Blackhawks, they just have whatever's modded on. Half my state's H-60s have CMWS, some don't, one's modded for an internal fuel tank, a few have BFT. Overall rather random, and no change in any designation whenever anything's modded in.

[franze 196]

My main grief with vanilla ARMA AH-64 FM was too slow turning, especially in pitch and bank. ACE 2 AH-64 fixed that while it didn't/couldn't fix the high speed stiffness or any other problems but that alone made a big difference. Now the AH-64D went crazy with maneuverability which is just as bad (IMHO) as not enough maneuverability. I don't expect any fancy FM features from ARMA chopper, but that the basic performance figures are sensible.

Ok, gotta put my foot down: The FM is staying where it is and that's the end of it. We've had plenty of people test it without issue for 3 years and as far as I'm concerned it's set in stone. I've used mouse + keyboard and two separate joysticks with it and I refuse to go back to the sluggish cow-like handling of BIS helicopters nor the 'oh shucks, my tail rotor is out; carry on' damage effects.

Fair enough, just wanted to add in that if you guys do decide on a UH-60, I can try to provide nearly any non-restricted reference you want, even NSNs on the rivets! :P

Another question, does the Block II not incorporate the 200-gallon CEFS (Crashworthy External Fuel System) tanks at all? I wouldn't feel very safe with ERFS tanks that pump hot bleed air into a tank of JP8! :P

For some background, it seems AH-64Ds are a lot more standardized than UH-60s, such as no Block IIs having CMWS. While with Blackhawks, they just have whatever's modded on. Half my state's H-60s have CMWS, some don't, one's modded for an internal fuel tank, a few have BFT. Overall rather random, and no change in any designation whenever anything's modded in.

If we do a UH-60 we'll be sure and hit you up for info!

The few pictures I've seen of the AH-64's with external tanks have been the old 230 gallon types. With the IAFS, external tanks have fallen out of favor as having an extra 100 gallons internally seems to be adequate for most operations.

Your state is lucky; my state only has straight up ancient -60As with no possibility of upgrading any time soon. As most AH-64s are in the active Army as opposed to Guard and Reserve, I suspect that is why most are more standardized. If you look at a lot of Guard aircraft you'll see a lot of odd combinations too.