Body armour & helmet protection feature

[LackLustreSurvivor 10]

Hi there I don't post or visit the forum often so excuse me if this question has been asked more than a dozen times. I have seen one or two other threads about this but nothing came out of them.

Currently body armor and helmets don't really work realistically they are more for aesthetics than anything else imo, I don't believe that it is impossible or really that hard to make body armor work the way it should. I am a 3D artist myself and from my knowledge hit boxes are what determines where damage takes place.

And I'm not sure if hitboxes are the same as collision boxes. But if they are they can be made more detailed as to include the helmet and vest and exclude every other part. so whenever the vest or helmet is hit the player or AI takes no damage. It can be done as it's already in VBS2. I also saw in the confirmed features thread that body armor and helmet protection were confirmed. If they have already been included in the game how come it doesn't work like VBS2 or maybe it hasn't been included just yet? There are people who say that body armor only works for shrapnel or pistol rounds and the same for helmets. But then what explains the soldier's video? And various other soldiers' stories about being hit in the head or chest and taking no damage maybe a bruise or more and that's it. Nothing lethal but in ArmA 3 so far. take 1 shot to the chest you're bleeding maybe not dead but the 2nd shot will kill you. head one shot and you're dead probably true for rifle rounds but pistols or SMG's?

VBS2 Body Armour -

Soldier body armour stops sniper round -

PASGT & MICH helmet tests -

Reference from the confirmed features thread - "Objects like tactical vests will have weight and different carrying capacities as well as different protection values.

Headgear will offer different levels of projectile protection."

[EliteSniper 10]

You do realize that shooting at armor point blank with a FMJ round will kill a person right? The videos of Snipers shooting vests, and high caliber rifles/pistols shooting them are not using FMJ. And the military doesn't use any other rounds but FMJ (videos show bullets like low velocity), because they'd be extremely useless on the battlefield. (FMJ is: Full Metal Jacket, which means it pierces body armor) Helmets don't do really anything unless it's low velocity rounds or shrapnel. Knee guards are to protect the knee when kneeling so you don't get a rock or skin burn when firing, same with elbow pads. Unless they have

armor in the game, every bullet will most likely pierce the armor.

Another question. Are you a developer? No? Then how would you know that it's so easy to implement. It would be pretty tricky to master this without major bugs, and would take a while to flesh them out.

Edited July 25, 2013 by EliteSniper

[Rolling 1]

You do realize that shooting at armor point blank with a FMJ round will kill a person right? The videos of Snipers shooting vests, and high caliber rifles/pistols shooting them are not using FMJ. And the military doesn't use any other rounds but FMJ more like low velocity, because they'd be extremely useless on the battlefield. (FMJ is: Full Metal Jacket, which means it pierces body armor) Helmets don't do really anything unless it's low velocity rounds or shrapnel. Knee guards are to protect the knee when kneeling so you don't get a rock or skin burn when firing, same with elbow pads. Unless they have

armor in the game, every bullet will most likely pierce the armor.

Another question. Are you a developer? No? Then how would you know that it's so easy to implement. It would be pretty tricky to master this without major bugs, and would take a while to flesh them out.

First off, when did he say that implementing such a feature would be easy?

Point blank engagements aren't exactly common in arma, and I'm pretty sure kevlar vests can stop bullets sometimes or else why would militaries be forcing their troops to be carrying all of that extra weight?

[EliteSniper 10]

LOL, Kevlar barely works my friend. And the reason they are forcing them to use Kevlar and steel plates is because it's cheaper then the Dragon skin which is the future of body armor. Btw a bullet is at it's best in medium and long range flight. Most people who take a hit from FMJ when wearing Kevlar and steel plates die, because those get pierced. Not hard to know if you did your research before hand.

You didn't? Whats this?

"I don't believe that it is impossible or really that hard to make body armor work the way it should"

[LackLustreSurvivor 10]

I didn't say it would be easy, I said it wouldn't be impossible or rather "too hard" But I still stand that body armor can stop rounds from a distance. whether they are FMJ or not. Since rounds do slow down. And no I am not a developer if I was I wouldn't be asking this question. I also never mentioned point blank range. I mentioned direct hits (not side shots etc)

[becubed 24]

You do realize that shooting at armor point blank with a FMJ round will kill a person right?

No. A type III vest will stop a FMJ bullet. The definition of a Lvl3 vest is that it WILL stop a 7.62 FMJ bullet at 847m/s, this is about 50m/s higher than the muzzle velocity from an M40 sniper rifle. A level4 vest will stop an AP bullet at a similar velocity. US troops wear armour up to level IV.

Check the end of

clip to see the effect of a point blank shot with a 7.62 NATO ball round on a guy wearing a vest.

[scrim 1]

ES: That's one of the biggest loads of nonsense I've heard regarding body armour. For starters, yes, it is FMJ that's been stopped. It's a lot easier to get hold of military ammunition than any other in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. Second, yes, both helmets and vests do stop a tonne of bullets, a lot of times so well that the wearer didn't even notice his plate got hit. Third, it's not metal plates, they're ceramic. If you'd known even a fraction of what you claim to, you'd have known that. Fourth, Dragon skin is hardly the future of body armour, since it proved to have a few small nasty defiancies, such as the glue dissolving in typical Middle Eastern heat, and bullets slipping right through in between the scales when the west was lying down on the ground.

[Qosmius 10]

Elitesniper you really dont know anything about body armor to be saying that stuff...all of the videos they shoot at body armor they usually use FMJ bullets..a capabale body armor at today has no problem at all stopping a regular 5.56 fmj bullet. i bet that in 30 years from now on they should have developed armor a bit more

[scarecrow398 43]

You do realize that shooting at armor point blank with a FMJ round will kill a person right? The videos of Snipers shooting vests, and high caliber rifles/pistols shooting them are not using FMJ. And the military doesn't use any other rounds but FMJ (videos show bullets like low velocity), because they'd be extremely useless on the battlefield. (FMJ is: Full Metal Jacket, which means it pierces body armor) Helmets don't do really anything unless it's low velocity rounds or shrapnel. Knee guards are to protect the knee when kneeling so you don't get a rock or skin burn when firing, same with elbow pads. Unless they have

armor in the game, every bullet will most likely pierce the armor.

Another question. Are you a developer? No? Then how would you know that it's so easy to implement. It would be pretty tricky to master this without major bugs, and would take a while to flesh them out.

- I'm way too tired to go through this but in short, a military vest such as the IOTV (Standard US Military vest) with a regular SAPI plate is rated to stop a 7.62x51mm M80 ball round at a velocity of 878m/s (the round leaves the barrel at around 830m/s) so yes it will stop a Sniper round point blank, it'll hurt like hell, do some massive bruising and probably break some ribs (In short a bullet has 3,300 joules of energy, where as a human punch has around 300 joules, while it doesn't have the mass to knock you over all the energy has to go somewhere and in turn the ceramic plate on your chest has to go somewhere as well) but you'll live, while vest's like the Crye CAGE (What NATO wears in game) and newer IOTV's with the appropriate E-SAPI trauma plate's is rated to stop a armor piercing 7.62x63mm (.30-06 Springfield) at 878m/s (round leaves the rifle at 850m/s).

- Full metal jackets are not designed to penetrate body armor, they're designed so they don't expand/mushroom on impact but rather tumble or fragment (to keep in line with the Hauge and Geneva Conventions (more so the Hauge)).

Armor piercing rounds are rather jacketed with a soft filling like a regular FMJ but have a tungsten, Depleted uranium, steel or similar dense metal core which continues through the armor shielding on impact when the outside jacket and filling has impacted (As seen here:

)

- Modern kevlar helmets such as the ACH or ECH are level IIIA helmets, rated to stop .357 SIG/magnum and Jacket holo point .44 magnum rounds (i.e most handgun rounds), low velocity (Therefore distant) low/moderate caliber rifle rounds and small but high velocity shrapnel.

However there are many instances when much larger rounds have been deflected or stopped due to NVG or lighting mounts on the helmets.

- Yes, knee and elbow pads are designed to provide some padding as protection from the environment and he never said anything about

-Dragonskin is not a magical miracle it's made out to be and was poorly constructed, causing significant structural failures in the armor which proved it to be null in warm environments, unless you're in a cold environment or they've revised the construction process then i wouldn't trust it.

-The core layout at the current time of the items in game means it isn't a huge amount of work from the point Arma 2 had, in fact you can already change the armor rating of a unit, the thing that BI needs to clear up is restricting the hit areas (which are assigned separately for each item such as the vest and helmet) to only effect the item for resistance while still providing feedback that you've been hit to the player.

Please at least research what you're saying or don't say it at all, really it take 5 minutes and saves you looking like someone who has no idea in the slightest about what their talking about.

Better yet, if you're old enough to be doing a physics class in school, do some research and submit it for a assignment.

---

On the original post, i did PM Vespa about this a while ago (Vespa? are you out there? :p ) who said he would look into it when i was attempting to make working body armor and helmets but it got stuck in the mud when he said he would ask the character guys...

Edited July 25, 2013 by Scarecrow398
Speeling

[EliteSniper 10]

Cool, yet I doubt any of you have ever used a Kevlar vest or seen it take a bullet? Just read about it on wiki, correct? Ahh thought so. Maybe when you see it in use, and not in videos where they use low velocity(rounds that don't pierce armor) you'd noticed Kevlar doesn't stop most rounds. And yes FMJ is designed to pierce armor. I believe in the 1990's two bank robbers had a massive shootout with police that killed a few police officers and injured a lot more. They were using FMJ and nothing could stop the bullets, not their car, not their vests, reason they had to call in the swat team with a heavily armored car. Not hard to know if you did your research. Please take five mins before you say anything, or don't say it at all.

Another thing, Dragon skin doesn't fail, and you can't get bullets stuck or able to pass between the scales. Sorry but it's been proven to work even under the most extreme conditions, unlike Kevlar and ballistics.

You can tell me I don't know anything, but in the long run I have experience with these vest as I have tried out both. You just looked stuff up and judge off that. Tell me one thing, if Kevlar and these helmet are so good, then why is it that our soldiers get killed? I know why, it's because Kevlar doesn't stop a lot of bullets. Now this will be my last post on this thread, so before you respond with a HUGE paragraph explaining how I'm wrong and you're right, think about how much time you're wasting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6z7DTn-M7k

Boy those steel plates really work, let me tell you. >.< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjcVGZtM8UI

Edited July 25, 2013 by EliteSniper

[scrim 1]

I'ma go ahead and call you out on your "experience". For starters, no, it's not Wikipedia. Saying "you read that on Wikipedia" has turned into something people lacking any source of their own, and more often than not lying, say when confronted with opposing arguments. And seeing as how you've put down "Pripyat" in your location, you don't exactly come across as anything else than someone who's trying to make themselves out to be more than they actually are, which is often done by issuing pessimistic statements on a few particular "hot topics", body armour being one of them.

Also, your statement regarding the 1990's bank robbery further goes to show how little you know about these things:

A, In the 90's our current body armour didn't exist, meaning your argument is worth less than the paper it's printed on (yes, I know this is an Internet forum, and thus there is no paper. I stand by that comment, as it illustrates what I feel regarding your claim).

B, Police officers wear "soft" body armour unless they're SWAT or such, meaning only Kevlar, no trauma plates.

C, E.g. SAPI plates didn't even exist back then.

And to wrap it up, FMJ was desinged when the concept of body armour had latest been applied to the body armour used before firearms became common place on the battlefield, meaning it simply can't have been designed to penetrate body armour. And your continued insistaning that modern standard issue body armour consists of Kevlar and metal plates goes to show how pathetically little you actually know of this.

[becubed 24]

Now this will be my last post on this thread, so before you respond with a HUGE paragraph explaining how I'm wrong and you're right, think about how much time you're wasting.

OK live in ignorance, we just didn't want to leave Dagon19 there with you.

[Qosmius 10]

dont feed the troll elitesniper...jesus what an ignorant person

[Petrov 10]

*insert facepepalm here*

[LackLustreSurvivor 10]

Cool, yet I doubt any of you have ever used a Kevlar vest or seen it take a bullet? Just read about it on wiki, correct? Ahh thought so. Maybe when you see it in use, and not in videos where they use low velocity(rounds that don't pierce armor) you'd noticed Kevlar doesn't stop most rounds. And yes FMJ is designed to pierce armor. I believe in the 1990's two bank robbers had a massive shootout with police that killed a few police officers and injured a lot more. They were using FMJ and nothing could stop the bullets, not their car, not their vests, reason they had to call in the swat team with a heavily armored car. Not hard to know if you did your research. Please take five mins before you say anything, or don't say it at all.

Another thing, Dragon skin doesn't fail, and you can't get bullets stuck or able to pass between the scales. Sorry but it's been proven to work even under the most extreme conditions, unlike Kevlar and ballistics.

You can tell me I don't know anything, but in the long run I have experience with these vest as I have tried out both. You just looked stuff up and judge off that. Tell me one thing, if Kevlar and these helmet are so good, then why is it that our soldiers get killed? I know why, it's because Kevlar doesn't stop a lot of bullets. Now this will be my last post on this thread, so before you respond with a HUGE paragraph explaining how I'm wrong and you're right, think about how much time you're wasting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6z7DTn-M7k

Boy those steel plates really work, let me tell you. >.< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjcVGZtM8UI

1, As the previous comments have said Dragonskin is a farce.

2, if rounds penetrate body armour like a knife through butter trust me soldiers wouldn't be wearing it.

3, Yes we just saw body armor take a round in the video I showed you.

4, Your opinion is that Kevlar barely works. Well that is your opinion but not the opinion of the majority here.

5, mentioning the 1990's body armour was no way near advanced as it is today. Body armor is not completely bullet proof but it DOES stop bullets including FMJ rounds.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Dagon19

[sgt_Savage2003 10]

Can we get an admin to close this pointless thread. This has strayed way off course from what the OP was talking about.

[Slotho98 10]

I know a guy who took a 7.62 Ak round to his body armour in Afghanistan and he said it felt like getting hit with a sledge hammer and it broke his ribs and he was made combat ineffective and got flown out to Bastion for a check up and that was only a 7.62 standard round from a Taliban's gun, most modern armies use an AP type round and these were designed to penetrate armour. A .50 will penetrate just about all the body armour out there and if you get lucky and it deflects away you will be lucky yo only have a huge bruise, be combat ineffective, and possible broken ribs IF YOU'RE LUCKY, snipers use ammo that will penetrate body armour at extreme ranges (if anyone shows the medic survive that sniper shot next to a Humvee, it was a dragunov firing in 7.62×54mmR not .408 in ARMA 3 or .338 lapua (british) or .50).Dragonskin is good but it does have some well documented weak points. plates in the current armour have been known to shatter when stopping multiple rounds in quick succession. also the body armour has many gaps eg in the side and groin etc. Helmets are designed to protect from blast and shrapnel and lower calibre weapons but they are trying to make them stop up to 7.62 by studying the miracle shots that deflect of the helmet. I think that this would be good if they get all the weaknesses and variables in and just have a few dedicated servers running it as a mod (paid for by Bohemia) it would be good, but to balance it I think that an incredibly advanced wounding/bleeding/bone breaking/internal wounds system would need to be in place so that medevac's to base and onto an operating table would be required to survive more serious wounds. Also putting in stretchers and a leaning on others system to make a really realistic server.

Also lots of people are saying about more advanced armour in the future but remember that as defence gets better so does offense & vice-versa

[scrim 1]

Yes, trauma plates don't cover every inch of your body, breaking news. You could potentially create a body armour vest that renders the wearer immune to even main gun rounds fired from MBTs, but at the small expense of also making the wearer 100% unable to move. There will always be a balance between the amount of armour you throw on a soldier, and his ability to still move around sufficiently well that his armour doesn't turn into a threat to himself.

And yes again, SAPI plates and similar plates are very well known to shatter when hit by assault rifles and various other weapons. Because that is what they are designed to do. They are literally speaking designed to shatter as means of absorbing the power of the bullet hitting the plate. Otherwise they'd just have made trauma plates out of steel, not ceramics.

[Spartan0536 189]

LOL, Kevlar barely works my friend. And the reason they are forcing them to use Kevlar and steel plates is because it's cheaper then the Dragon skin which is the future of body armor. Btw a bullet is at it's best in medium and long range flight. Most people who take a hit from FMJ when wearing Kevlar and steel plates die, because those get pierced. Not hard to know if you did your research before hand.

You didn't? Whats this?

"I don't believe that it is impossible or really that hard to make body armor work the way it should"

I used to believe stuff like this like you do until I did some in depth research and came across a very informative video done by 2 US Marines that were shooting various pistol rounds at a single panel of level IIIa armor, watch the results...

Here is what you can take away from this video....

1. Standard 9mm FMJ rounds WILL NOT penetrate Level IIIa armor

2. Standard and +P .45ACP rounds WILL NOT penetrate Level IIIa armor

3. 9mm +P+ FMJ rounds WILL penetrate Level IIIa armor

4. after 4 impacts with various 9mm and .45ACP rounds the armor paneling is severely deformed reducing its effectiveness in stopping future incoming rounds

so what does this tell us... BODY ARMOR IS EFFECTIVE, I also watched many other videos and read many reports on armor effectiveness from levels Ia to Dragon Skin SOV5000, most pistol rounds will penetrate Level Ia, level IIa which is most commonly used by Patrol Police Officers is effective at stopping most standard pressure pistol rounds, Level IIIa will stop ALL standard pressure pistol rounds including 5.7x28mm (excluding the "black tip" armor piercing round), Level IVa will stop even 5.56x45mm FMJ rounds, level III with trauma plates will stop 5.56x45mm FMJ and OTM rounds, they also have the capability of stopping 7.62x39mm FMJ rounds (this is according to battle reports in Iraq around 2004-2008). Level IV with trauma plates even stops 7.62x51mm FMJ High Velocity rounds, and Dragon Skin SOV5000 or level V armor is capable of stopping a .50BMG FMJ round from 1000m away (this is speculative as there is no information on it, it is based on mathematical numbers calculating average penetration depths and KE transfer rates). Level V armor WILL stop a 7.62x39mm Armor Piercing round and they have proved this multiple times including multiple 7.62x39mm AP rounds at point blank range, it will also stop 7.62x51mm AP rounds as well, SOV 5000 is also very heavy and restricts mobility quite a bit.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Spartan0536

[Kirill 1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_4uIuzWkiY

[Damian H 0]

On 7/25/2013 at 12:32 AM, EliteSniper said:

You do realize that shooting at armor point blank with a FMJ round will kill a person right? The videos of Snipers shooting vests, and high caliber rifles/pistols shooting them are not using FMJ. And the military doesn't use any other rounds but FMJ (videos show bullets like low velocity), because they'd be extremely useless on the battlefield. (FMJ is: Full Metal Jacket, which means it pierces body armor) Helmets don't do really anything unless it's low velocity rounds or shrapnel. Knee guards are to protect the knee when kneeling so you don't get a rock or skin burn when firing, same with elbow pads. Unless they have

armor in the game, every bullet will most likely pierce the armor.

Another question. Are you a developer? No? Then how would you know that it's so easy to implement. It would be pretty tricky to master this without major bugs, and would take a while to flesh them out.

1. You must not know how the ratings of Kevlar used with a steel plate can go. They will take about anything up to 7.62x54 and will take at least 2 rounds of it. 
2. You have never worn proper body armor if you believe all this junk.

3. Dragon Skin was a failure as it could not hold up in harsh climate conditions and would have disastrous conditions.

4. Stop acting like an internet tough guy.

[beno_83au 1369]

@Damian H you realise you're necroing an almost 8 year old post, when the poster hasn't been on the forums in about 7 1/2 years? I hope you weren't expecting an answer or to prove any point to the poster.