Marshall vs. Patria AMV

[CaptainObvious 95]

I think most of the times we had 5 boxes of ammunition for the HMG when on a mission, 200 rounds per box that is, the gun itself had 200-400 rounds loaded, the offensive troops had way more, we were recons.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Sorry but what has wikipedia done to become the most reliable source of information, check the finnish version of that page and you will see that the commander is not infact listed as optional and seeing as the particular vehicle is actually finnish made that might be more believable.

Although the commander position is almost useless in arma when using bots (since the driver cant drive wiht any reliability) that is no reason for it to be taken out of the game.

I seriously hope these are place holders and not infact the finished products.

Also, what is with these ammo counts, it looks like they are going to go shoot a few rounds on the shooting range and I'm not even choking, that is the avarage amount of ammo given when going to the shooting range, actual battle armament includes 500+ rounds for all vehicles with HMGs, and that is just when talking about a light and fast incursion wiht no long time engagements planned.

Just wanna start by saying I mean no disrespect as you have worked in the vehicle being questioned.Its not only wikipedia as the two man turret is referenced many times as being controllable by only one person.Here is one.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/italy_italian_heavy_light_weapons_army_military/hitfist_25_30_mm_turret_infantry_fighting_vehicle_oto_melara_technical_data_sheet_specifications.html

Now back to critique of the vehicles.I don't understand the thinking at BI.Why do they seem to be adding functionality to the driver and removing it from the gunner/commander.Why is the driver in control of the smoke defenses.Why is the driver able to choose what gun to fire?Someone wants the gunner to be a gunner and the driver to be the driver/commander?Its funny that I sit there with 2D window waiting for every order from gunner and execute as best as possible.I have no eyes to outside yet I have ability to choose what weapon is being fired at targets I cant see.Or thru my small window I have better ability to spot enemy AT and throw smoke before they get a bead on us?Sorry but something is wrong with the thinking IMO.I just take it that the company has a huge amount of overload going on but I find that they will release as is and that makes me sad.

[metalcraze 290]

you are arguing like an conspiracy theorist!

the patria can be configured for two man crew. it is realistic. why have they decided to put this version in the game? i don't know. there could be many reasons. perhaps they didn't know, that there are other configurations, perhaps they thought 2-man-crew would be "the future". all i'm saying is, that we have to wait, how the game turns out. you can't deduce a general development direction from such a small design-decision.

Dude it has hatches for commander and gunner. Fact. But hey I'm sure defending any wrong decision BIS makes can only help the game.

perhaps they didn't know

So they've modeled a three-seater APC but didn't know it's three seater? Hahaha. Amusing blind faith in BIS really. Even after what they did with the rest of the game.

perhaps they thought 2-man-crew would be "the future"

So worsened situational awareness in an APC that is responsible for getting soldiers in and out alive is "it's teh future guys!"? Gee no wonder NATO is an underdog.

Edited July 9, 2013 by metalcraze

[Wolfstriked 11]

Dude it has hatches for commander and gunner. Fact. But hey I'm sure defending any wrong decision BIS makes can only help the game.

So they've modeled a three-seater APC but didn't know it's three seater? Hahaha. Amusing blind faith in BIS really. Even after what they did with the rest of the game.

So worsened situational awareness in an APC that is responsible for getting soldiers in and out alive is "it's teh future guys!"? Gee no wonder NATO is an underdog.

Metalcraze,it is a two man turret that is able to be used by one person alone if so desired.IMO lots of other things to fight for.;)

[metalcraze 290]

Metalcraze,it is a two man turret that is able to be used by one person alone if so desired.

So where's the two men in it? I desire it to have a gunner and commander. Just like in the real vehicle you know. I want APC to have a situational awareness it has IRL because it will only help it from getting wiped.

Tank turrets also can be used by one guy, why don't we see armies removing commanders from them?

How is asking for Patria to behave like Patria is such a damn sin? What's wrong with you people?

IMO lots of other things to fight for.;)

Except these same responses are in every thread that questions wrong BIS decisions.

Again - why model a three seater if only 2 can be used?

Edited July 9, 2013 by metalcraze

[instagoat 133]

Metalcraze,it is a two man turret that is able to be used by one person alone if so desired.IMO lots of other things to fight for.;)

Why not model a version without a turret then. The polish AMVs do not have turrets, and instead mount only driver and commander, and give the commander a Stryker style RCWS. If they build a turret, at least go all the way and not mount a castrated version. The actual layout of the turret is apparently as follows:

The Turret at an exhibition. Note position of the Coax gun port above and left side of the main cannon, as well as the Gunner's optics mounted where in our version the coax is located. It also sports a CITV on top of the turret.

My Rivet-counting labelled OMG ERRYTHANGS WRONG picture. I´d at least like to see the CITV come back, and enhanced Commander's features for the final game. We also need some sort of defensive system, and smoke dispensers, at the least.

This, or remove the turret and replace it with an RCWS.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Just found that the AMV we have in game is using the Denel LCT30 turret and I thought it was the Hifist turret.From what I gather the LCT30 is a two man turret with no capabilities to run with just one man...........but this is the future with BI calling it the AMV-7 Marshal while giving it a 40mm gun so it kinda seems that they can do what they want.Its worrying to think that we are not getting tanks till final release and they may not be what we are expecting.

[metalcraze 290]

Just found that the AMV we have in game is using the Denel LCT30 turret and I thought it was the Hifist turret. From what I gather the LCT30 is a two man turret with no capabilities to run with just one man

So do you believe now they are doing it to balance the game because Marid is a two seater? Or need any other proof?

Although 3 crew positions with only 2 functional should've been enough.

[Smurf 12]

On a related note;

Vehicles are modular now? How does it affect anything? What type of changes can we expect to see in the "Change equip" tab on the editor for vehicles?

With these in mind, this turrent could be just one of some turrets.

Wishful thinking at its best.

[Damian90 697]

The polish AMVs do not have turrets, and instead mount only driver and commander,

If you mean Polish AMV version, the "Rosomak" (Wolverine), then you are wrong, it have several different versions, for example the basic front line variant have a Hitfist-30P turret which have gunner and commander and is armed with a 30mm Mk44 automatic cannon and 7,62mm UKM-2000 coaxial machine gun, this turret will be replaced in newer variant by unmanned turret with similiar armament + Spike ATGM's, but the crew will still be 3 men. If I misunderstood you, then my apologize.

As for vehicles in game.

IMHO someone should try to talk with developers how the vehicle like AMV-7 and later tanks as well, will look like in the final version of the game.

It might be that currently AMV-7 is just not finished model with which is just a temporary placeholder before the final version will be finished with commander position, proper turret model, properly placed sights etc.

Or we will just stick to mods. ;)

BTW I have a very important question about this vehicle turret/armament customization. Is this possible? Something like rail attachements on small arms and uniforms?

If this is indeed possible then, it gives very interesting new possibilities.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Damian90

[bakerman 247]

Take a deep breath.

The Denel LTC30 turret comes in multiple versions and has a somewhat modular design, the CITV being one of the many add-on options available. Currently the LTC30 uses the ATK 30mm Mk44 Bushmaster, it isn't a big stretch of the imagination to think that future versions will use the ATK Mk44 Bushmaster Super 40 (which, surprise, uses 40mm).

Commanders sight: Alternative sight systems can be incorporated with minimum modifications to suit the user requirements

Notice that there is no CITV on this variant and it looks a lot like the one used in the game. The optional addons this turret can equip is not limited to CITV.

Edit: While the stock configuration of the turret has space set out for two crew members the turret can operate with only one AFAIK. Example: No CITV = No need for a commander to operate the vehicle in its entirety, so now you can use the open space for ammo storage or w/e.

The level of self entitlement in this thread is too damn high.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Bakerman

[Smurf 12]

You will have to unlock the commander position and the CITV thing, just wait until they update the game with the unlocks and anchievments. :D

[CaptainObvious 95]

So do you believe now they are doing it to balance the game because Marid is a two seater? Or need any other proof?

Let me ask you again, where is this claim coming from? Any official statements about this being a balancing thing?

[instagoat 133]

Take a deep breath.

The Denel LTC30 turret comes in multiple versions and has a somewhat modular design, the CITV being one of the many add-on options available. Currently the LTC30 uses the ATK 30mm Mk44 Bushmaster, it isn't a big stretch of the imagination to think that future versions will use the ATK Mk44 Bushmaster Super 40 (which, surprise, uses 40mm).

Notice that there is no CITV on this variant and it looks a lot like the one used in the game. The optional addons this turret can equip is not limited to CITV.

Edit: While the stock configuration of the turret has space set out for two crew members the turret can operate with only one AFAIK. Example: No CITV = No need for a commander to operate the vehicle in its entirety, so now you can use the open space for ammo storage or w/e.

The level of self entitlement in this thread is too damn high.

Granted, I am coming off as a bit anal here, however, it´s just the inconsistency that bugs me a bit.

The AMV originally had the CITV modelled, however, since there are tons of pictures of the Merkava with and without a gun on top, I am actually beginning to think we will see multiple variants with or without a Commander?

I´d be rather happy if someone from BI could tell us what's going on here. Is this just a temporary "beta" AMV, or is this THE AMV and the Strider will also have its Commander removed, or what?

[BallSabre 1]

Just wanna start by saying I mean no disrespect as you have worked in the vehicle being questioned.Its not only wikipedia as the two man turret is referenced many times as being controllable by only one person.Here is one.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/italy_italian_heavy_light_weapons_army_military/hitfist_25_30_mm_turret_infantry_fighting_vehicle_oto_melara_technical_data_sheet_specifications.html

Ugh... Sorry got a little exited there...:p

What I was just trying to say was that a vehicle made for real compat operations and not just troop transport will always need atleast tree crew members when talking about such a multi purpose vehicle. Just because you can doesn't mean you should...

Although, In arma I NEVER use the commander seat so I totally know what you are on about ;)

Why is the driver in control of the smoke defenses.

In the HMG/GMG version of Patria AMV the gunner actaully controls the smokes, they are on the turret to begin with. Seems like a really ood choice by BI

Why is the driver able to choose what gun to fire?Someone wants the gunner to be a gunner and the driver to be the driver/commander?Its funny that I sit there with 2D window waiting for every order from gunner and execute as best as possible.I have no eyes to outside yet I have ability to choose what weapon is being fired at targets I cant see.Or thru my small window I have better ability to spot enemy AT and throw smoke before they get a bead on us?Sorry but something is wrong with the thinking IMO.I just take it that the company has a huge amount of overload going on but I find that they will release as is and that makes me sad.

In arma I usually command the vehicle from the drivers seat because the bots cant drive. This might just be something to make it over all easier to use vehicles with bots. Not that I agree, but if fixing the AI is too much work this is still better than nothing.

Still, its not an excuse to take stuff away form the commander.

[chortles 263]

The sad but funny (because it's sad) part is the possibility that the "balancing" may not be "for deathmatch pvp" as metalcraze claims, but rather "balancing against our inability to get the AI to drive properly"...

On a related note;

Vehicles are modular now? How does it affect anything? What type of changes can we expect to see in the "Change equip" tab on the editor for vehicles?

With these in mind, this turrent could be just one of some turrets.

Wishful thinking at its best.

This I find absolutely an interesting possibility, even if for gameplay purposes an script for "in-mission" refit might be appropriate (drive to appropriate base, select action menu choice, and within the scripter's chosen period of time voila your turret is replaced).

[Smurf 12]

This I find absolutely an interesting possibility, even if for gameplay purposes an script for "in-mission" refit might be appropriate (drive to appropriate base, select action menu choice, and within the scripter's chosen period of time voila your turret is replaced).

Could be done in previous titles replacing the whole vehicle so no big deal. I'm asking, on a technical level, if there is some modularity on vehicles in A3 and, if it has, what it means to the game.

Anyway, the Marshall with the Commander Unlock (same used in the Strider):

And a mortar or railgun variant:

My point here? None.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Ugh... Sorry got a little exited there...:p

What I was just trying to say was that a vehicle made for real compat operations and not just troop transport will always need atleast tree crew members when talking about such a multi purpose vehicle. Just because you can doesn't mean you should...

Although, In arma I NEVER use the commander seat so I totally know what you are on about ;)

In the HMG/GMG version of Patria AMV the gunner actaully controls the smokes, they are on the turret to begin with. Seems like a really ood choice by BI

In arma I usually command the vehicle from the drivers seat because the bots cant drive. This might just be something to make it over all easier to use vehicles with bots. Not that I agree, but if fixing the AI is too much work this is still better than nothing.

Still, its not an excuse to take stuff away form the commander.

Could very well be they are making it geared for SP.The driving of the AI is perfect at times and then it goes bonkers.In A3 though I have noticed that they stay on roads very well to get to new areas of map where A2 the detours the AI took where mind boggling.If they could just cure the way the AI tries to go around an invisible object when you ask for a simple forward or reverse it would be worlds better.

For smoke I would like every station to have it.At times I play online by jumping from gunner to driver and being the gunner and seeing infantry readying the AT sucks.I have to jump to drivers seat,press smoke and reverse which is always too late.Plus the smoke gets thrown in a circle around the APC which makes it so that you need to throw smoke and start reversing the instant a soldier starts to take out AT.The realistic way it was thrown in A2 seems to work much better for actually using smoke as evasive maneuver.

Also,BallSabre I have a few questions for you about the aiming system in the Patria AMV.What is the FOV when looking at weapon or commanders screen?I am asking because I find that the current zoomed in FOV makes for an unpleasant experience.Just something that throws me off as its uncomfortable,slow to move from mouse sensitivity lessened when zoomed and just does not allow you to command a vehicle the way it would be in real life.But then again I may be wrong and the FOV may be right as modeled in APC's.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Also,BallSabre I have a few questions for you about the aiming system in the Patria AMV.What is the FOV when looking at weapon or commanders screen?I am asking because I find that the current zoomed in FOV makes for an unpleasant experience.Just something that throws me off as its uncomfortable,slow to move from mouse sensitivity lessened when zoomed and just does not allow you to command a vehicle the way it would be in real life.But then again I may be wrong and the FOV may be right as modeled in APC's.

Well the AMV itself doesn't have any aiming systems, those come with the installed armament and are dependant to them.

The pic I posted in the other thread is from Kongsberg Protector that was fitted in my AMV, commander was able to switch the gunners view or the reverse camera image on his screen as desired, propably the side mounted cameras as well but those were disabled for some reason.

Other configurations naturally have different FOVs and screens and stuff, AMV truely is modular. :cool:

[Wolfstriked 11]

They probably even have wide angle lenses seeing as you wanna be able to scan areas quickly and efficiently.This video shows a pretty wide view.



Also,judging from this video and a few pics I seen(and now I cant find)it seems that the driver actually uses cameras to steer the vehicle.The rear camera and front camera instead of looking thru the single drivers periscope IMO would make this vehicle shine.When you press W the vehicle shows forward camera and when you press S the reverse camera.VIS,NV and TI capable etc.Would make it feel more like a very high technology piece of equipment.



---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 PM ----------

[/color]This is the clip for drivers view.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Wolfstriked

[CaptainObvious 95]

They probably even have wide angle lenses seeing as you wanna be able to scan areas quickly and efficiently.This video shows a pretty wide view.

Also,judging from this video and a few pics I seen(and now I cant find)it seems that the driver actually uses cameras to steer the vehicle.The rear camera and front camera instead of looking thru the single drivers periscope IMO would make this vehicle shine.When you press W the vehicle shows forward camera and when you press S the reverse camera.VIS,NV and TI capable etc.Would make it feel more like a very high technology piece of equipment.

---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 PM ----------

This is the clip for drivers view.

Ah yes, I forgot to talk about the drivers screen, it is possible to get the gun view, reverse and side camera views in that screen, driving solely on gun optics isn't a good idea for obvious reasons, when the gunner aims at anywhere but the road ahead .. well you know ;)

Driver doesn't have his own dedicated cameras pointing forvard, unfortunately.

Driver uses the gunners view in situations when the vehicle is engaging enemies from behind a ridge, that way the driver can stop the vehicle in that very moment the gunner has a clear view on the targets while revealing the vehicle as little as possible, then reverse back to safety when the gunner has done his job.

I personally didn't like to drive from the screen, situational awareness is much greater thru periscope as depth perception is very poor when driving from the screen.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Ah yes, I forgot to talk about the drivers screen, it is possible to get the gun view, reverse and side camera views in that screen, driving solely on gun optics isn't a good idea for obvious reasons, when the gunner aims at anywhere but the road ahead .. well you know ;)

Driver doesn't have his own dedicated cameras pointing forvard, unfortunately.

Driver uses the gunners view in situations when the vehicle is engaging enemies from behind a ridge, that way the driver can stop the vehicle in that very moment the gunner has a clear view on the targets while revealing the vehicle as little as possible, then reverse back to safety when the gunner has done his job.

I personally didn't like to drive from the screen, situational awareness is much greater thru periscope as depth perception is very poor when driving from the screen.

So a PIP that toggles between gunner,rear and sides would be very realistic? BTW great post!:) Love the part about gunner view to allow driver to see when the gun is clear to fire which completely removes the ....forward/forward/etc etc.And driving from gun camera was bad in regards to depth perception?Is the reason why because the gun scopes wide view is actually zoomed in slightly?

And a final question is do you play Steel Beasts?I am intrigued by it and 3.0 version releasing very soon.$115.00 bucks is rather steep but I watched a 1 hour long mission yesterday and I loved every minute of it.Real tankers sim!

[CaptainObvious 95]

So a PIP that toggles between gunner,rear and sides would be very realistic? BTW great post!:) Love the part about gunner view to allow driver to see when the gun is clear to fire which completely removes the ....forward/forward/etc etc.And driving from gun camera was bad in regards to depth perception?Is the reason why because the gun scopes wide view is actually zoomed in slightly?

Yes, PiP like that would be realistic and very welcome even, I'd like to see that.

I'm not sure if the gun optics' zoom level has something to do with depth perception, it just feels off in general, propably because the image isn't stereo.

With the periscope you could move your head and peek left and right to get a feeling for example how close to a tree the front corner is, with the screen it's more trial and error, most of the times you clear the tree, sometimes you fill up an accident declaration :cool:

Of course driving from below is always quite tricky in tight spots, be it with the periscope or the screen.

Here's a shot of the NV-periscope we had, it was a ton of fun driving in the forest dodging trees at night when you could only see a tiny bit of your own vehicle when turning the periscope all the way to either side :D

http://i.imgur.com/8ekjAXe.jpg

And a final question is do you play Steel Beasts?I am intrigued by it and 3.0 version releasing very soon.$115.00 bucks is rather steep but I watched a 1 hour long mission yesterday and I loved every minute of it.Real tankers sim!

No I don't, first time I hear about it actually, I need to take a closer look sometime, looks interesting :D

[Wolfstriked 11]

Yes, PiP like that would be realistic and very welcome even, I'd like to see that.

I'm not sure if the gun optics' zoom level has something to do with depth perception, it just feels off in general, propably because the image isn't stereo.

With the periscope you could move your head and peek left and right to get a feeling for example how close to a tree the front corner is, with the screen it's more trial and error, most of the times you clear the tree, sometimes you fill up an accident declaration :cool:

Of course driving from below is always quite tricky in tight spots, be it with the periscope or the screen.

Here's a shot of the NV-periscope we had, it was a ton of fun driving in the forest dodging trees at night when you could only see a tiny bit of your own vehicle when turning the periscope all the way to either side :D

http://i.imgur.com/8ekjAXe.jpg

No I don't, first time I hear about it actually, I need to take a closer look sometime, looks interesting :D

What is that periscope attached to?Is that small round circle the way you view thru the single slat when not in NV mode or do you pull it down to then view thru it?Looks amazingly awkward.:butbut: I like the turret indicator panel.:)

And Steel Beasts,from what I gather is a very good simulation of tactics.Its not the best at graphics or physics but the actual commanding a platoon of tanks etc is excellent.And when 3.0 is released they are gonna allow people to buy a months worth of the sim for $10 dollars to try it out.

[CaptainObvious 95]

What is that periscope attached to?Is that small round circle the way you view thru the single slat when not in NV mode or do you pull it down to then view thru it?Looks amazingly awkward.:butbut: I like the turret indicator panel.:)

And Steel Beasts,from what I gather is a very good simulation of tactics.Its not the best at graphics or physics but the actual commanding a platoon of tanks etc is excellent.And when 3.0 is released they are gonna allow people to buy a months worth of the sim for $10 dollars to try it out.

First the normal periscope is taken off and the NV-tube goes in its place, both are secured to the driver's hatch with metal clamps, takes just under a minute to switch them. Oh boy the first time driving with it, awkward indeed :o Quite alright when you get used to it tho.

Sharp-eyed are we? ;) Yes, that indeed is a turret indicator, I believe it was suggested in some other thread to implement such a thing, would be authentic for sure.

There is also a wheel turn indicator, steering brake indicator and an open hatch indicator in that screen, the line in the front is the wheel direction of course, steering brakes are offline as there isn't small empty triangles at both ends of the "turnchart", those would then light up when the steering brakes engage at either side, in the right conditions AMV literally turns on a dime, open hatches are displayed as those lit boxes, or a circle for the gunner's hatch.