Remove punishment for TK due to mines?

[Karim 10]

What do yall think about receiving punishment after friendlies walk over your Anti-Personnel mines? I can understand that you receive punishment due to killing a team-mate using ur main or secondary gun - because the game has no way of determining if it was intentional or not. But i think that when it comes to anti-personnel mines, it is quite obvious that 99.9% of the time, if not 100% it is not about intentional ROE, but rather people who ignore the red-triangle and just walk over them anyway. I dont think you should get punished for this, if anything (going on a lim here) the person walkin on the mine should be punished for destroying it, that way team-mates will be forced to pay more attention next time because the red-triangle over the mine is quite obvious for everyone to see. I think that is a much better & productive way of getting rid of future team-killing (unintentional!) due to anti-personnel mines. So I dont find that you should get punished for it.

Your thoughts?

Edited June 12, 2013 by Karim

[dmarkwick 261]

Any weapon that isn't actively triggered by the owner shouldn't be punishable.

[NicotinKickballovich 1]

Agreed, if they're blind it's their own fault. Even if the mines are placed where they shouldn't be can always just shoot them or have a demo specialist remove them.

[tonygrunt 10]

If you remove the punishment, I expect people abusing it with mines in respawns areas, near friendly vehicles, etc.

[AmeriToast 10]

what Tony said

[Tonci87 163]

Be carefull where you place them and tell the other via mapmarkers that there are mines.

[ric 1]

the less difficult the less realistic the less challenging just brings us one step closer to call of duty....

[jw custom 56]

Be carefull where you place them and tell the other via mapmarkers that there are mines.

Yeah that will work, if people ignore a red danger triangle they sure will pay attention to map markers!!

If you remove the punishment, I expect people abusing it with mines in respawns areas, near friendly vehicles, etc.

A little scripting can easily take care of that.

[KingChubbles 1]

If you give players freedom then there will be one to abuse it and ruin it for everyone else. There has to be a balance. While no punishment for mines would be great, there would be those who abuse it for teamkilling without penalty.

I'm not saying there should or shouldn't be punishments, but there are downsides to both. If you stick to private servers and communities then this wouldn't really be a problem, but that's not a get out of jail free card.

[dmarkwick 261]

IMO the correct use of mines should not be punishable because it's possible for them to be misused.

[Karim 10]

If you give players freedom then there will be one to abuse it and ruin it for everyone else. There has to be a balance. While no punishment for mines would be great, there would be those who abuse it for teamkilling without penalty.

I'm not saying there should or shouldn't be punishments, but there are downsides to both. If you stick to private servers and communities then this wouldn't really be a problem, but that's not a get out of jail free card.

Regarding the mine-spawn abuse issue, that could possibly be taken care of with a small bit of scripting like someone above me said. So i dont really see how removing punishment for mines would be bad in any way, I mean its impossible for someone to grab ur neck in-game and force u to walk over a red-triangle, right? So i only see positives (could be wrong). Also, it removes alot of frustration due to people getting switched over to "independent" and not being able to play with their own clanmates/teammates or people they just met on the server for the first time and started to like and communinicate/cooperate with alot, because of something he had no choice over due to someone choosing to ignore a big red triangle on the ground. I dont think this should be punished, it ruins the experience, not the game but the experience. My 2 cents.

[tonygrunt 10]

Scripting respawn areas to lock out mines might work but you can't lock out the whole island. What happens when I mine a road where friendly vehicles are about to pass or a building that is a map task? Make moving lock out areas?

I dislike also when people run in my line of fire when instead of passing behind me, they run in front me. Should TK punishment for this also be removed?

With every weapon there is a situation that you can unintentional TK someone. Maybe a little more patience till people get accustomed to mines.

[Karim 10]

IMO the correct use of mines should not be punishable because it's possible for them to be misused.

I agree completely.

[jagheterjan 10]

Leave it up to the mission makers to deal with this on a per-mission basis. This way everyone gets catered for.

[Karim 10]

I dislike also when people run in my line of fire when instead of passing behind me, they run in front me. Should TK punishment for this also be removed?

If it could be proven that it was done unintentionally yes, but thats impossible. When it comes to the anti-personnel mines, in 99.9% if not 100% of the cases its unintentional on the part of the person placing the mine, the fact that there are big red triangles should suffice for the other teammates and the punishment should thereby be negated. No one can grab a persons neck in-game and force him to walk over a mine. For example, I dont know how valid this analogy is but some medication bottles over here where i live contain a red triangle on the label (indicating caution), if a person chooses to take that medication (when they are not for him specifically) and as a result of that he injures or dies, the medical company dont suffer any punishment, because they did what they were supposed to do, namely place that red triangle on the label of the bottle, indicating the danger.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Karim

[dmarkwick 261]

Scripting respawn areas to lock out mines might work but you can't lock out the whole island. What happens when I mine a road where friendly vehicles are about to pass or a building that is a map task? Make moving lock out areas?

I dislike also when people run in my line of fire when instead of passing behind me, they run in front me. Should TK punishment for this also be removed?

With every weapon there is a situation that you can unintentional TK someone. Maybe a little more patience till people get accustomed to mines.

True, but leave-&-forget weapons like mines are a special case I think. I can think of situations where some griefer could deliberately step on mines in order to TK punish the mine layer, so which is the more appropriate to safeguard - correct mine use or correct mine awareness? :)

There was some game I played years ago, cannot remember what it was, where if you were TKd you had an opportunity to "forgive" the TKer, via an immediately available button as I remember it. Maybe this could be a partial solution?

[tonygrunt 10]

There was some game I played years ago, cannot remember what it was, where if you were TKd you had an opportunity to "forgive" the TKer, via an immediately available button as I remember it. Maybe this could be a partial solution?

Forgive option would be nice and would work in removing the TK flag when playing with like minded people but not against griefers. They would simply not forgive.

[Karim 10]

There was some game I played years ago, cannot remember what it was, where if you were TKd you had an opportunity to "forgive" the TKer, via an immediately available button as I remember it. Maybe this could be a partial solution?

Some servers have that, but the thing is that 99.9% of the cases (speaking from experience), people press "punish" instead of "forgive" even though it was their own fault that they ignored the red-triangle, so they just pass the blame on someone else for the heck of it, and that guy gets punished and removed from his team of players that he is currently playing and enjoying himself with.

[EDcase 87]

I've already been on the receiving end of asses who think its funny to put mines near friendly vehicles at base.

The punish/forgive option is the only way to deal with such varied situations.

[Karim 10]

I've already been on the receiving end of asses who think its funny to put mines near friendly vehicles at base

Thats why there are red triangle markers indicating there are mines there? The thing is that decent people are getting punished for something they can not be held responsible for (especially due to the red-triangles). I do not think the actions of a few (0.1%) (keep in mind u can still see the red-triangles) justifies the punishment of the majority.

[tonygrunt 10]

Thats why there are red triangle markers indicating there are mines there?

The red markers are there but the vehicle is basically disabled, you can't move it without destroying it and you need a engineer to disable them.

The thing is that decent people are getting punished for something they can not be held responsible for (especially due to the red-triangles). I do not think the actions of a few (0.1%) (keep in mind u can still see the red-triangles) justifies the punishment of the majority.

Maybe those few think the best way to annoy right now is to run into mines, when there is no TK message from mine killing they will instead use this to annoy you.

[dmarkwick 261]

I've already been on the receiving end of asses who think its funny to put mines near friendly vehicles at base.

The punish/forgive option is the only way to deal with such varied situations.

Right. So even with the TK punish as it is, this activity still occurs? (Assuming TK punish is enabled....) So IMO the correct use of said mines should really be the deciding factor.

---------- Post added at 15:24 ---------- Previous post was at 15:21 ----------

The red markers are there but the vehicle is basically disabled, you can't move it without destroying it and you need a engineer to disable them.

Hey I wonder if mining friendly vehicles is a legit way of protecting them against (enemy) theft? ;) (Not at base obviously.)

[gossamersolid 155]

Punish/Forgive option.

That's the only solution here.

[nodunit 397]

A punish system would do nothing but get honest players in trouble. In terms of "Lessons Learned" I'd like to bring up battlefield 2 which had both AT mines and claymore.

There was a similar system, a red skull would appear atop a mine/claymore to indicate to friendly forces that they were there, and a punish system was integrated from the beginning...so what happened?

Friendly units would still blindly run over the mines/claymore, not giving a moment of thought as to why they just died..they only considered that someone just teamkilled them as such they should be punished for it.

On the flipside there too were people who would place mines before friendly vehicles for laughs, sometimes forcing the players to leave the vehicle. A punishment system here did nothing, ultimately they still got their jollies from destroying friendly objects and hampering their team.

So what is the solution?

There is nothing you can do other than integrate a function wherein mines will NOT detonate upon friendly units, it is the only foolproof way. This way the blind drivers do not detonate them, and trolls cannot get their jollies.

Yes it is less realistic but really it is the only win win situation for it.

Edited June 12, 2013 by NodUnit

[Sneakson 1]

If there's a 100% punishment people can intentionally make you kill them and get you a ban and if there's 100% no punishment players will abuse it.

Make any direct or in-direct killing of teammates punishable and add an option for players to forgive them -- all problems solved right?

Also having mines not detonate on friendlies would be a good solution actually. Abusers could put a bunch of mines down and trick enemies into walking onto them while he runs straight across them but that would only be realistic still since he would know exactly where he put them.

Clouse enough for me anyways.