Turkey gets it "Arab Spring" ?

[ric 1]

Ah, well that perfectly explains why the Communist block outlawed homosexuality, and people were shot for it in the USSR. It obviously also dictated what you got to eat (or if you got to eat at all), since the import from the "fascist West" wasn't really big.

you will be sorry when glorious soviet farther (Stalin) returns ;) ....you will be sent away for...."re-education" :p

---------- Post added at 22:09 ---------- Previous post was at 22:06 ----------

While I completely agree, I'd venture that's its somewhat hard to separate the political/religious debate as that seems to be at the heart of much of these uprisings. As far as what system is the worst ie... religious/atheist/communist/fascist - they all have the potential to be the worst if the leaders have the need to dominate as their primary motive over welfare of the people. Throughout history we can see that when a fascist government comes to abuse -leftists come to arms. When religious abuse -atheists or secularists come to arms. Its all the same and is more about the story of human's need to impose their values on others thru force when the diametrically opposed political paradigm comes to show it's face thru opposition ad infinitum....

I dare say the worl would be a much more interesting place if we were ALL raised on a philosophy based on logic and reason and not the mish mash of fear and ritual based crap that still exists.

[vilas 477]

As far as what system is the worst ie... religious/atheist/communist/fascist - they all have the potential to be the worst

add democracy there :D

why ?

- mainstream media owned by few corporations steer voting people (giving false informations for example, not allowing to tell all the thruth) , the real power of democracy is only in free market of many many media companies, there cannot be olygopoly or monopoly of one big company, cause one owner can tell voters whom they should vote, thats why all those ACTA, SOPA , TTIP things are so important to us,

- 30% of people have IQ below 90, 50 % have 90-109 IQ, only 20% have IQ more than 110 ,

- women vote rather on handsome idiot greedy corrupted liar and tall than on high-iq and moral but short and fat, so media film one politician when camera is prone, second politician when cameramen holds camera high, women use less logic (math logic) than we, male but they have right to vote, "i will never vote for guy who is short" < i heard it several time from women about leader of our opposition, they have right to vote and they choose man "for being handsome" not looking if he knows anything about economy , world, history etc. and later in parliament we have handsome always-smiling idiots with white teeth who only make public-relation show but not industry and economy rise, they can smile and show teeth, they cannot rule and make economy better and law clear,

I dare say the worl would be a much more interesting place if we were ALL raised on a philosophy based on logic and reason and not the mish mash of fear and ritual based crap that still exists.

main problem is social-engineering is that all those stupid people (those with low iq which do exist in society) need vision of heaven and hell, also logic is not only , cause logic say that if i am stronger than you, and you have beauty wife, i should kill you and rape your wife for my pleasure - this what logic says,

so some "religion basis" is neccessary to state what is good and what is bad, cause pure logic says that slavery is best system for economy, you aim gun, tell men to work and shoot if they do not want and no need to pay them,

in social engineering you must build moral system, without religion's "crap" it is impossible, thats why in past human invented god ;) you must steer somehow humans which are animals who have instincs and biological needs, socialism tried that too to replace religion's god with Lenin but failed, humanity need gods, but states should remain secular to not abuse usage of god , but i cannot imagine how to explain to stupid instinct-led egoistic people why not to steal or rape but to help others if there is no "it is sin, you gonna go to hell, be good help others , you gonna go to heaven", altruism is not natural, you must force it, so religion is very good tool in social engineering, used since many thousand years,

religions will disappear with the time and science development, but what than we gonna do with all low-iq people or egoists ? so far we know from science that in society we have 1% of psychopats, we do not kill them, they kill us, what we gonna do without religions when you have psychopath born (front brain problem, lack of morality, lack of barriers, constant liar using only logic to get more money/power, zero conscience),

calling all religions crap is not the way, they are needed as a tool when you lead any society, they must have moral barriers, how you gonna build what is good and what is bad on logic ?

Edited June 5, 2013 by vilas

[mrcash2009 0]

I dare say the worl would be a much more interesting place if we were ALL raised on a philosophy based on logic and reason and not the mish mash of fear and ritual based crap that still exists.

We are .. "Globalisation","Green","Global Warming","Multiculturalism","Common Purpose", "EU .. military for the world & law","New Age","Maritime Law","Evolution" list goes on... you name it its all in the philosophy people are being raised on now, just make your choice on whether that's just as good or the same under other names.

Religion is only as good with those that dont manipulate through it or with it, religion itself isn't a device, just those that use it that way.

Edited June 5, 2013 by mrcash2009

[ProfTournesol 956]

Religion is something private which should be kept private.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Turkey protests? I don't think anything significant will happen - Erdogan won nearly 50% of the vote in 2011 which shows he has popular support. His Party have a large majority in the parliament. Hopefully he will learn some lessons from this and realise that his responsibilities as PM include governing on behalf of everyone, not just those that voted for him. The protesters may hold out until winter then get cold, bored and go home. I don't see them toppling the government but it may put Erdogan's ambitions in check.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_2011

The protesting groups are too diverse:

environmentalists, Taksim Solidarity Movement, Greens, Liberals, Anti-capitalist Muslims, LGBT activists, Kurds, Left wing, Anarchists, Communists, Secularists, Nationalists, Engineers and Architects, Football supporter clubs of the four major teams, Anonymous, RedHack

You couldn't get that lot to agree on where to go for lunch! It's the usual fringe mix without a common goal so it will fizzle out, given time.

We are .. "Globalisation","Green","Global Warming","Multiculturalism","Common Purpose", "EU .. military for the world & law","New Age","Maritime Law","Evolution" list goes on... you name it its all in the philosophy people are being raised on now, just make your choice on whether that's just as good or the same under other names.

Been reading "Above Top Secret" again have we? I'm not sure a significant number of parents raise their children to believe in conspiracy theories but I concede there are a few that do that sort of thing. I blame the popularity of the X-files lol.

Hadn't heard of the "Maritime Law" thing before, it's pseudolaw made up by people who think they can opt out of being citizens (The "my house is now a sovereign state" mob). Unfortunately none of these arguments have any legal basis so they just end up getting into more debt and trouble: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land (Admiralty law and court appearance techniques)

Religion is something private which should be kept private.

True but it will never happen, the main problem is that 'holier than thou' competition that arises in all cases. Which leads to shouting out, jumping around, rolling in the isles, persecution complexes, nailing oneself to crosses, beating oneself with whips and chains, extremism, weird clothing, ludicrous diets, sexual repression, sense of humour failure and many other forms of general bizarre nonsense.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[scrim 1]

Lol, lies. What next? Billions of people shot by Stalin himself?

I'll reply to that funny comment once I'm done contemplating how lucky the civilized world is that the Soviet Union died.

Oh yes I did.

[Amra 10]

I'll reply to that funny comment once I'm done contemplating how lucky the civilized world is that the Soviet Union died.

Oh yes I did.

Yeah sure. Don't forget your tinfoil hat. KGB is still watching you.

[Maio 293]

Back on topic. Any further derailment will be sanctioned :)

[ric 1]

Back on topic. Any further derailment will be sanctioned :)

our political commissar (политрук)has spoken ;)

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

The way I heard it, it started as a peaceful protest against tearing down a park. Possibly one of the last public green spaces in Istanbul, though I'm unsure of that. You know, people standing in front of bulldozers, chaining themselves to trees, camping out in the park, all that stuff.

Then it got bad. Undercover police, or people looking to exploit the situation, or government goons, or idiot teenagers (we'll never know for sure) snuck into the park and starting lighting tents on fire as the police closed in with tear gas and water hoses to forcefully remove the protesters. They were firing tear gas at peoples heads. Over 1,000 people were taken to local hospitals for treatment of injuries sustained during all this. Most, not all, caused by the police. As of right now, I believe 2 people have died, a dozen have lost their vision (possibly permanently) as a result of being hit in the head by police (probably by tear gas fired at them).

It started as a peaceful protest, but the police response to the protest pissed a shitload of people off, and now anybody who has anything to say is out in the streets, and they want ErdoÄŸan gone, I think.

Here are some pictures of what's been happening. All taken from http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/ (WARNING: You may find graphic images on this tumblr. The overwhelming majority are not graphic, but if you scroll down far enough you will probably encounter some. Mods, if you feel the link should be removed, I will do so, but I ask that you check the link for yourself before deciding.)

The Turkish Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip ErdoÄŸan, told the press that the Turkish Spring already happened, that he lead it, and he's not going to let the protesters turn it into a winter. So...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/c7b4ba37c5abb1571cb7a56beb2f4fb8/tumblr_mnv5dcLiRj1ste7qoo1_400.png

Tear gas can't hurt anybody? Really?

The woman in red

http://lucienballard.tumblr.com/post/52220098289/all-photographs-osman-orsal-reuters-brave

"Well, crap"

THAT OLD GUY DISLIKES THE GOVERNMENT!

Peaceful, though kind of dumb, protesting. Possibly a hippie.

Police patrol in Ankara, apparently firing teargas from those vehicles

Police officers viewpoint: aka those bastards tried to kill me with a crapload of bricks.

Police officers worthy of their jobs actually not hiding behind their shields, but listening to what the protesters have to say.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/2d4a1f89fd29cad94e3ff6de1b4545bd/tumblr_mnppm46FW01ste7qoo1_1280.jpg

Exhausted police officers passed out/napping in the street.

---------- Post added at 05:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 AM ----------

Also, has anyone here seen Les Mis yet?

Edited June 6, 2013 by PurePassion
please watch the max. allowed filesize for hotlinked images (100KB)

[Tonci87 163]

People calling for protest via twitter get arrested!

[mrcash2009 0]

People calling for protest via twitter get arrested!

This and face-book have been a data mining social monitoring nest from the get go, so no surprise at all, same happened with UK riots. If your going to call for anything (protest IE non violent) then do it the old fashioned way, people never learn. Do you have a link, was it actually calling to protest or is it a case of react to anything becuase its automatically someone calling for violence?

[vilas 477]

This and face-book have been a data mining social monitoring nest from the get go, so no surprise at all, same happened with UK riots. If your going to call for anything (protest IE non violent) then do it the old fashioned way, people never learn. Do you have a link, was it actually calling to protest or is it a case of react to anything becuase its automatically someone calling for violence?

eh... what a f... time, arresting for calling to protest ? how the other way society can organize than call each othet to protest ? sad days if it happened in UK, cause UK is Europe, not Asia or South America in 70s/80s with authoritarian dictators, maybe in some time people calling others to strike will be also arrested (trade union,etc)

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Regarding Turkey, as I don't wish to derail the thread any further, the law was changed in December and brought in line with the European Court of Human Rights criteria so that only "direct incitement to violence will constitute a crime". This was done following EU demands that Turkey boost freedom of expression. So providing all is being applied fairly and correctly, whoever is being arrested may be doing far more than simply calling for a protest, as you find with those arrested for similar acts elsewhere if you do your research correctly :)

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/51513482/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/turkey-passes-anti-terrorism-law-reform/#.UbDrLs4Uylh

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

So providing all is being applied fairly and correctly, whoever is being arrested may be doing far more than simply calling for a protest, as you find with those arrested for similar acts elsewhere if you do your research correctly :)

"Turkish authorities have freed 33 protesters who were detained in Izmir for posting "misinformation" via Twitter"

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/europe/2013/06/20136661457648298.html

"Police in Turkey's third city of Izmir said the suspects had been detained for "spreading untrue information" and inciting people to join demonstrations"

"Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who denounced Twitter as a "menace to society", adding: "The best examples of lies can be found there."."

"They added that some of the tweets in question shared information and phone numbers of volunteer doctors and lawyers. Others said: "There are police in x, don't come here" or "this and that street is blocked" or "let's meet tonight at x".:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/05/turkish-police-arrests-social-media-protest

etc.

Also, I was wrong, they don't want ErdoÄŸan gone. The only demands they have are...

Protest organizers said in a televised statement after meeting with Arinc that they wanted an end to police violence, immediate freedom for the thousands detained since demonstrations began Friday and a repudiation of plans to raze the last park in the center of Istanbul to make way for commercial development.

http://www.theday.com/article/20130606/NWS14/306069543/1044

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Well it looks like the new law isn't being applied as it is elsewhere, eg: in the EU where you can be arrested for inciting violence on twitter but not for simply organising a protest. Perhaps 6 months isn't long enough for training in new procedures to reach everyone concerned? Looks like when it came to charging _x the magistrate said GTFO, that's why they were all released. Perhaps the new Turkish laws protecting freedom of expression / association is the reason this is happening now? Nice weather and certain people know they can get away with it? That's what people tend to do when given new legal freedoms - test the boundaries?

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Honestly, I think it's what exactly what it appears to be. The government wanted to destroy the last park that exists in central Istanbul, a bunch of people protested, the cops beat the shit out of them, and people reacted.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Honestly, I think it's what exactly what it appears to be. The government wanted to destroy the last park that exists in central Istanbul, a bunch of people protested, the cops beat the shit out of them, and people reacted.

That may have been it initially, but it has spiralled into much more. Anyone with any kind of grievance has joined in. Those who care about parks don't loot, burn and vandalise the private property of ordinary people. Also there is possibly more than a little innacuracy being spread about the plans for that area. It's true that some of the park will be lost but in the end there will be far more public space available.

If you look at the existing square and park, the proposed plans remove the bus station and most of the roads to form a huge pedestrianised area. About half the park is lost which is a shame, but you end up with far more public space in the square. It could be greener in my opinion but it's not the 'concrete jungle' I expected when I first heard about this.

Development plans here, not a concrete jungle as described but could be greener:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22753752

I still think there are fringe groups taking advantage of the new liberal laws, if it wasn't the park they would have found something else. Looks like policing methods will have to change too following the mess they made of this.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[mrcash2009 0]

Unfortunately you will always get the bandwagon jumpers with these things, the second half of UK London riots were opportunists and people just out for the fight of it, seems threres a balance of the same with this. Problem is its so messy its very easy for both sides to "poke it with a stick" and it gets masked in the fog of it all, tricky one all round with something like that. Although the usual pattern seems the same, when it started it was nothing like the beast it ended up, and most of the people at the start had no intention of the ending.