Has anyone any recent information on

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Has anyone any recent information on what the offensive in Afghanistan is doing? It must be around 2 months now since we last heard about "sucess" stories no? I was screening through some boards and newspapers but nothing new! I wonder actually what the success has been so far. If we summ up the incidents where they actually found shelters we can only look back at little attacks and a few alienated weapon archives!

If you dont know! (as always) then enjoy yourself with those while other smarter people respond!

Bin Laden diplomacy

Al Quaida handbook

[bn880 5]

Yea they have run out of targets. They realized after bombing that wedding that there are no obvious targets left, and that you can't just shoot whatever moves.

[Jester983 0]

Once in a great time ill go over to cnn.com. And look what i found. Bin ladin on the net? Supposedly US intelligence thinks that there maybe clues on the web to find him.

I hope thats what you're looking for albert.

[USSoldier11B 0]

I'll give you some open source first hand info that I have received. The generally Afghani population is supportive of NATO actions and are intrigued by the strangers occupying their nation. U.S. installations around Afghanistan take frequent harassing fire and occasional RPG fire. Many diseases are running rampant through the Afghani population right now. 1 in 4 people have tuberculosis. Gastrointestinal illnesses are highly prevalent right now, including cholera, dysentary, and giardia. STD's are rampant throught the area. Right now U.S. forces are concentrating on force protection and Foreign Intenal Defense. This includes training allied Afghani forces. The offensive Optempo is still somewhat high, but progress has been slow. I have been told that the dust in Afghanistan sticks to everything and is awful. The climate is severe, for a country the size of Texas it has elevations ranging from 500 to 25,000 feet. Winter temperatures range from 100 F to -3 F. Rainfall on the high plains (about 20,000 ft ASL) is about 3" per year, but can be as much as 50" per year in the Hindu Kush mountain valleys.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Jeez, where do I find an Afghan travel agent? I need to make reservations

[Jester983 0]

Wow. I knew it was pretty bad over there but i didnt know its that bad. Lets all be glad we dont have to live there.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ July 24 2002,02:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The generally Afghani population is supportive of NATO actions and are intrigued by the strangers occupying their nation.<span id='postcolor'>

Gwahahahah You crack me up. Where did you get this? "Why we fight 2002?"... lollol..

I have a friend who is with Médicins Sans FrontiÄres in Afganistan. He occasionally sends me emails where he talks of the situation. Unfortunately they are in Swedish, so I doubt that there would be any point posting them.

In short he talks about how the country was trashed before the NATO bombing but now that it is trashed beyond belief. They have problems with unexploded ordnance, people get killed every day. The people are very hateful towards all foreigners, especially soldiers because they feel that they are being forced to abandon their culture. They are not happy about their new 'freedom', because they don't want it. They just want to be left alone and have their own culture and religion.

They are extremely sceptical towards the new interim government and are very sure that it will collapse.

He also talks about how killing civilians is very popular now. The new regime kills people who were loyal to the Taliban. The remaining Taliban fractions kill civilians as revenge. NATO soldiers kill civilians all the time because they think that everybody is Al Queda or Taliban and if the person in question carries an AK47 then they shoot him on the spot.

...so it's not a very nice situation he describes, I'm afraid.

[USSoldier11B 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Gwahahahah You crack me up. Where did you get this? "Why we fight 2002?"... lollol..

I have a friend who is with Médicins Sans FrontiÄres in Afganistan. He occasionally sends me emails where he talks of the situation. Unfortunately they are in Swedish, so I doubt that there would be any point posting them.

In short he talks about how the country was trashed before the NATO bombing but now that it is trashed beyond belief. They have problems with unexploded ordnance, people get killed every day. The people are very hateful towards all foreigners, especially soldiers because they feel that they are being forced to abandon their culture. They are not happy about their new 'freedom', because they don't want it. They just want to be left alone and have their own culture and religion.

They are extremely sceptical towards the new interim government and are very sure that it will collapse.

He also talks about how killing civilians is very popular now. The new regime kills people who were loyal to the Taliban. The remaining Taliban fractions kill civilians as revenge. NATO soldiers kill civilians all the time because they think that everybody is Al Queda or Taliban and if the person in question carries an AK47 then they shoot him on the spot.

...so it's not a very nice situation he describes, I'm afraid. <span id='postcolor'>

Hey, don't be an ass. This is info that I received from several people who just returned from Kandahar.

"Leave us alone and let us be oppressed by the Taliban and the Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice." uhhh....right

I have heard alot about unexploded ordnance too, most of the victims are host nation allied troops. More NATO troops have been killed by landmines than anything else. Alot of these minefields are old ones laid by the Russians. Sorry Denoir, but I think your info is liberally biased. I don't think removing a severly opressive regime would be considered as destroying their culture. I think it is the opposite, the Taliban had a noose around the people and was not allowing their culture to thrive or develop.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ July 24 2002,03:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hey, don't be an ass. This is info that I received from several people who just returned from Kandahar.

<span id='postcolor'>

Let me guess, US servicemen. Oh yeah, great sources indeed. Mine is a politically and nationally independent doctor with the MSF. He is an old friend of my family and I trust his word completely,.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Leave us alone and let us be oppressed by the Taliban and the Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice." uhhh....right<span id='postcolor'>

Oppressed by our standards, not by theirs. Sure, the Taliban were arses in many ways, but the situation hasn't improved a bit. Do you really think that the biggest problem in Afganistan was that women had to wear veils by law? The current coallition government are as big arses as the Taliban were, it's just that they are NATO friendly now for the moment.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have heard alot about unexploded ordnance too, most of the victims are host nation allied troops.

More NATO troops have been killed by landmines than anything else. Alot of these minefields are old ones laid by the Russians.<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, and how many civilans have been killed? We are talking several orders of magnitude more then NATO personel. The biggest problem for the civilians are not the 20 year old mine fields, they have a good idea of where they are. The problem is all the undetonated Rockeyes that lie around.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sorry Denoir, but I think your info is liberally biased. <span id='postcolor'>

You'll have to explain this to me. I don't understand that statement.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't think removing a severly opressive regime would be considered as destroying their culture. I think it is the opposite, the Taliban had a noose around the people and was not allowing their culture to thrive or develop.<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, well, that's the official mainstream American view: If you don't eat BigMacs then your'e oppressed.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah, well, that's the official mainstream American view: If you don't eat BigMacs then your'e oppressed.<span id='postcolor'>

....Damn you're good

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 24 2002,03:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah, well, that's the official mainstream American view: If you don't eat BigMacs then your'e oppressed.<span id='postcolor'>

does it signifys that i'm oppressed

DON'T BOMB MY HOME

I GO TO A WEDDING NEXT WEEK DO NOT BOMB IT

PLEASE DON'T SPREAD BOMBLETS AND MINES IN MY GARDEN

PLEASE

lolol j/K

[MDRZulu 0]

Ill beleive 11b for this one because Denoir you hate the US and everything that is involved in and you never say anything good about the US, therefore you opinion is biased. You have never lived here yet you hate it do death.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MDRZulu @ July 24 2002,05:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ill beleive 11b for this one because Denoir you hate the US and everything that is involved in and you never say anything good about the US, therefore you opinion is biased. You have never lived here yet you hate it do death.<span id='postcolor'>

Wow. Denoir hates the US. I'd never have picked that up. To me, he hates when people do stupid things...and then say stupid things to justify them. And I am not aiming that at anyone or any group in particular.

What I believe is the thruth is somewhere between the two opposing viewpoints. I have a great deal of respect for MSF, but they are a little lefty leaning for my liking. But at the same time, I wont totally believe a US serviceman to give a totally objective viewpoint either.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Well your way of comparing the situation from before and now is somehow inaccurate. Before there has been a controled "arbitrary law" by the Taliban, but now there is the confusion of a power-vacuum. Counting the deaths is not the best way of estimating what happens, since both conditions cause a lot of casualties. Sure, we should not think that Kabul now is a safe place with converted christians and a new Burgerking around each corner. But there are indicators that things do get better! First of all the Aid-workers can undertake serious work, that was not the case before. Surely you remember the aid-workers that were accused of proselytizing. Now aidy's are actually applying for Afghanistan once again!

Furthermore is the establishment of a new police force, the possibility for westerners to actually "sponsor" schools (before that was forbidden), the reconstruction of trade-routes a step into the right direction. Again, just counting the deaths before and after is not sufficient.

On the other hand I am pretty much sure that the athmosphere will soon switch from UN-friendly to UN-hostile. maybe I am stereotyping but nations as such are unpredictable! I hope the turks, being in charge of Kabul right now, will be prepared!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MDRZulu @ July 24 2002,05:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ill beleive 11b for this one because Denoir you hate the US and everything that is involved in and you never say anything good about the US, therefore you opinion is biased. You have never lived here yet you hate it do death.<span id='postcolor'>

Silly inapropriate comment. You must be capable to face a discussion in a "discussion forum" without accusing people having an extreme opinion. Anyway between hating and criticising is a big difference. Anyway Denoir has far to few emotions and temperament (the scandinavians) to be hating someone!

[Antichrist 0]

I'll believe Denoir on that one!

And I reckon NATO troops should leave the country ASAP because if they stay much lonhger they might find themselves in the same situation USSR did during their Afghan campaign. They had all country conquered, but then..........

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Nooooooo, Leaving it would be the egoistic solution. If they really want to change things they gotta stay. I am sure they will face some good "adventures" in the future but still "we promised to do the job".

[Lazarus_Long 0]

Look, we didn't go to Afghanistan to liberate an oppressed pople from a corrupt government, we are there to destroy the Al Queda network and to ensure that Afghanistan never becomes a "terrorist haven" again. All this restoring freedom BS is just political crap that makes the bleeding hearts of the UN and EU happy. If the people of Afghanistan wants a free society where their plethora of cultures can flourish in peaceful harmony, they have work for it themselves just like any other society. We are not the ones standing in their way. We are just there to do our job, protecting the United States from "a clear and present danger".

I guess it's easier to blame America for the misery in Afghanistan, just like we get blamed for anything else. I don't really care. We said we were sorry for that wedding thing already... They should have realized that it was a bad idea to shoot rounds in the air while NATO warplanes were flying above...

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">protecting the United States from "a clear and present danger"<span id='postcolor'>

How successfull have you been in that?

[Guest]

Lazarus_Long:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Look, we didn't go to Afghanistan to liberate an oppressed pople from a corrupt government, we are there to destroy the Al Queda network and to ensure that Afghanistan never becomes a "terrorist haven" again. All this restoring freedom BS is just political crap that makes the bleeding hearts of the UN and EU happy. If the people of Afghanistan wants a free society where their plethora of cultures can flourish in peaceful harmony, they have work for it themselves just like any other society. We are not the ones standing in their way. We are just there to do our job, protecting the United States from "a clear and present danger".<span id='postcolor'>

Yes. Exactly. Too bad that the majority of people believe the political crap.

Zulu:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ill beleive 11b for this one because Denoir you hate the US and everything that is involved in and you never say anything good about the US, therefore you opinion is biased. You have never lived here yet you hate it do death.<span id='postcolor'>

Umm..ok.. anyway, I did not express my opinion in the post about the situation in Afganistan. I gave you a brief summary what a person who is right now in Afganistan had to say about the situation.

Albert:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nooooooo, Leaving it would be the egoistic solution. If they really want to change things they gotta stay. I am sure they will face some good "adventures" in the future but still "we promised to do the job<span id='postcolor'>

I admire your constant optimism but things are sometimes best left alone. This quest of bringing western-style lifestyles to other countries reminds me very much of the christian missionary quest that was popular a couple of hundred years ago.

[Lazarus_Long 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How successfull have you been in that?<span id='postcolor'>

I'm pretty sure we destroyed those monkey bars that Al Queda recruits were using on CNN... Let's see how long they can terrorise now with no upper body strength! Ha ha...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ July 24 2002,11:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Look, we didn't go to Afghanistan to liberate an oppressed pople from a corrupt government, we are there to destroy the Al Queda network and to ensure that Afghanistan never becomes a "terrorist haven" again.  All this restoring freedom BS is just political crap that makes the bleeding hearts of the UN and EU happy.  If the people of Afghanistan wants a free society where their plethora of cultures can flourish in peaceful harmony, they have work for it themselves just like any other society.  We are not the ones standing in their way.  We are just there to do our job, protecting the United States from "a clear and present danger".

I guess it's easier to blame America for the misery in Afghanistan, just like we get blamed for anything else.  I don't really care.  We said we were sorry for that wedding thing already...  They should have realized that it was a bad idea to shoot rounds in the air while NATO warplanes were flying above...<span id='postcolor'>

This post is freaky, you dont mean that seriously, do you?  

I dont know where to start! Besides the terrible amount of lack of emotions and sense of social responsibility (which I consider to be the difference between animals and humans) you appear to also are not a very pragmatic thinker. If you leave afghanistan without having "stabilised it" properly you will get terorism back in place. Cause terorism is nothing else than a lack of stability. If you think you can leave the country now and leave the humanitarian work to the EU (as they are the ones doing it right now in Kabul) then you will have a hard time finding support if you once again need to interfer in countries which fosters terorism. I dont mean military support but legislative support. Wherever you might attack in the future you need neighbouring countries that trust you such as Pakistan.

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">monkey bars<span id='postcolor'>

What is a monkey bar?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you leave afghanistan without having "stabilised it" properly you will get terorism back in place<span id='postcolor'>

US has, as far as I am concerned, somehow trained their "allies" in Afghanistan,

AFAIK.

Is it so that they trained the next binladens and alquedas, again?

Although I don't know how that country, or any other country, could

be "stabilized"?

[Longinius 1]

"Ill beleive 11b for this one because Denoir you hate the US and everything that is involved in and you never say anything good about the US, therefore you opinion is biased. You have never lived here yet you hate it do death."

Denoir has allready made his standpoint clear, so we can disregard that part.

But don't you think 11b is just as biased as Denoir would be? And what does the fact that Denoir hasnt lived in America have anything to do with it? I thought the discussion was about Afghanistan?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Anyway, I think the job is far from being done. Secondly I dont see the reason why the shouldnt continue doing our job in Afghanistan. In Germany we often say things like "now that we are already here we can do that too"! Just imagine what a damm great success that would be to actually bring peace to that region. It would show us that things can be changed, furthermore it would be a promotion for all intended future attacks against terorism!