Splinter Cell Blacklist

[Tonci87 163]

Well here is a gameplay Video

I own the first three Splinter Cells and they have been great. I´m not sure if I like how the series develops.

By watching this Video I come to the conclusion that it´s easier to just kill everybody then to try and sneak through. I remember that the first three games didn´t encourage a kill everybody behaviour. You were pretty much screwed once the shooting started.

What do you think?

EDIT: Also, big-ass drone not heard or seen by the enemies, yeah....

[max power 21]

It really bugs me when game development seems to lose its ability to think critically about design over time. In the Assassin's Creed 2 series, Ezio's gadgets, fighting ability, and climbing ability go more and more ridiculous until I found it to be actually quite stupid. It went from fun to lame. you have this character and this world with defined limitations, and I guess player's find limitations inconvenient so they streamline them until the character is fairly well unlimited. I have a clan of assassins I can call out to help me out but I never use them because I can basically kill a crowd of hundreds in hand to hand no problem. It seems like the same thing here. Fischer running along the sides of buildings like an insect and then using a drone as big as a volkswagen to fly around silently while slow mo killing 5 people in a chain with no draw back is just super poor imo.

[Tonci87 163]

It really bugs me when game development seems to lose its ability to think critically about design over time. In the Assassin's Creed 2 series, Ezio's gadgets, fighting ability, and climbing ability go more and more ridiculous until I found it to be actually quite stupid. It went from fun to lame. you have this character and this world with defined limitations, and I guess player's find limitations inconvenient so they streamline them until the character is fairly well unlimited. I have a clan of assassins I can call out to help me out but I never use them because I can basically kill a crowd of hundreds in hand to hand no problem. It seems like the same thing here. Fischer running along the sides of buildings like an insect and then using a drone as big as a volkswagen to fly around silently while slow mo killing 5 people in a chain with no draw back is just super poor imo.

Yeah somehow they think that stealth games become better by making them easier. It is the same with Splinter Cell, Assassins Creed, Hitman (you could at least turn this stuff off in Hitman...) and it will propably be the same with Thief.

[chortles 263]

Re: Ezio: Think of him as essentially "Renaissance Batman" as for why his "power creep" went the way it did... :p

Then again, they basically never really upgraded the enemies to the point where one had to be more tactical during the Ezio Trilogy, plus I'd dare say that Batman: Arkham Asylum (came out 2009, same year as AC2; the "kill chains" were implemented for Brotherhood in 2010 and Revelations in 2011) was responsible for part of the "streamlining"... Another problem with AC2 was that the perception by enough players that the devs listened/used-for-Brotherhood was that AC2 specifically encouraged the same "press X-on-360/Square-on-PS3 to counter, you win" behavior that had been a complaint about AC1, and I'm not just talking about the hidden blade.

@Tonci87: It makes more sense once you realize that they're actually looking to make action games... when the guy behind Conviction specifically referred to Metal Gear Solid ("traditional") stealth as "grandmother stealth", you should have seen where things were going. ;) And Conviction most obviously wears its "was obviously influenced by Batman: Arkham Asylum's critical and sales success" to the point that Penny Arcade once did a one-panel comic mocking its NPC enemies' dialogue.

Hell, when Kojima Productions not only couldn't make Hideo Kojima's desired mix of stealth and high-speed action and didn't believe in the idea anyway... he turned to Platinum Games who in return made it strictly an action game (and Kojima didn't stop them because they, unlike his own devs, actually delivered on time and on budget apparently!).

[metalcraze 290]

And then you wonder why people here ask to add St34l7h K1LlZ - when modern games mutated their understanding of stealth into "genocide whole areas of retarded enemies that will do everything they can to ignore you".

Stealth games 10 years ago - you are just one of many and enemies are no weaker than you. Going guns blazing = death.

Stealth games today - you are a superduperhero that nobody can spot in plain view who just wipes enemies in packs with a single button press.

[chortles 263]

Again, metalcraze, you're thinking of the modern games as stealth games... they're not. They're action games evidently influenced by the Arkham duology. (Although, I'd dare say that in Assassin's Creed, it was that way even further back when people realized "mastering hidden blade counter timing = you CAN in fact kill anyone in the game within melee reach... emphasis on literally anyone" back in AC1.)

[Fuse 1]

Power creep has been hurting Splinter Cell for quite a while now. The originals were some of the best stealth games around, but after the third or fourth game (can't remember specifics) the focus started to really shift. I remember playing the demo for one where I could "mark" targets in a room and then shoot them all pretty much automatically. That was the last time I ever even looked twice at a Splinter Cell game. They've turned Sam Fisher in to Jack Bauer.

[chortles 263]

Power creep has been hurting Splinter Cell for quite a while now. The originals were some of the best stealth games around, but after the third or fourth game (can't remember specifics) the focus started to really shift. I remember playing the demo for one where I could "mark" targets in a room and then shoot them all pretty much automatically.

You're thinking of Conviction, and I'm going to take a guess that the shift was (intentionally so) with Double Agent, though even before that he'd had a degree of power creep, what with the "SC-20K" having become able to rechambered for 20 mm APDS rounds. :eek:

That was the last time I ever even looked twice at a Splinter Cell game. They've turned Sam Fisher in to Jack Bauer.

Considering Jack Bauer's pop culture role, are you that surprised? ;)

I see it as a case of "dev turnover in favor of guys who were never interested in stealth games and are backed by brass who're only interested in making power fantasy games so those devs are insulated from any fan backlash", but then again I saw things this way the moment that in the face of criticism by fans about Resident Evil: Raccoon City, the developer Slant Six's reaction was: "We did what Capcom wanted us to do." That's right, not what fans wanted, but what the publisher wanted.

[raynor 0]

What I find very odd in the first two minutes of watching is that these tech enemies they've created jam the goggles that directly connect to your face via some form of magic. But the same tech enemies cannot jam the signal between you and a UAV. You can retrieve this UAV with your telekinetic powers as well.

[max power 21]

What I find very odd in the first two minutes of watching is that these tech enemies they've created jam the goggles that directly connect to your face via some form of magic. But the same tech enemies cannot jam the signal between you and a UAV. You can retrieve this UAV with your telekinetic powers as well.

LOL! Just like in real life!

[chortles 263]

I'm surprised that the Canadian Army isn't banging on Ubisoft Montreal's door demanding that they "spill the beans"! :lol:

In fairness though, if one doesn't imagine it as merely being "for gameplay's sake" (just like how Ubisoft used that excuse when Tom Clancy questioned the combined NVG/thermal goggles of the first Splinter Cell game -- what, you thought realism was only thrown out the window as recently as Conviction? ;) ) then I'd joke that it was "the drone lobby" pressuring Ubisoft to not publicly highlight that drones too are vulnerable to jamming. :p

[Fuse 1]

"We did what Capcom wanted us to do." That's right, not what fans wanted, but what the publisher wanted.

And we all know that really means "what the investors wanted". Damn The Man! :)

[chortles 263]

And we all know that really means "what the investors wanted". Damn The Man! :)

Now do you get why my positivity on Arma 3 is so based on the developer more than on "realism"? ;) Slant Six knows which their bread is buttered on, and it ain't "the fans"...

[metalcraze 290]

Again, metalcraze, you're thinking of the modern games as stealth games... they're not. They're action games evidently influenced by the Arkham duology.

Crouch stealth and takedowns were there earlier... But yeah if we will call them 'right' they are action games.

I think the last game that involved and rewarded for any kind of proper stealth was Blood Money.

And of course Chaos Theory if we will talk about Splinter Cell. But some people say that PS2 version of SC Double Agent was more like CT (made by Ubi Montreal) in contrast to what we got on PC (Ubi Shanghai).

[chortles 263]

The PS2/Xbox/Gamecube/Wii version ("Version 2") was developed by Ubisoft Montreal which had done the first Splinter Cell and Chaos Theory, the 360/PC/PS3 version ("Version 1") was developed by Ubisoft Shanghai, which had also done Pandora Tomorrow; as it turns out though even their plots differ to the point that the Splinter Cell Wikia distinguishes between the two plots by the version number, although Conviction uses a few bits from both in what passes for its plot.

[NeMeSiS 11]

I really liked SC1, it was my first XBOX game and I played the hell out of it. Was quite hard, one of the last games from a period where mainstream actually could be hard at the same time.

I also enjoyed the one that came with coop, though it didn't leave as much of an impression.

The 'select targets and aimbot them' feature just makes me sad, I doubt I will ever touch one of the new ones.

I'll just leave this song here for nostalgias sake. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et2g_HHfkOE

[Janez 533]

By watching this Video I come to the conclusion that it´s easier to just kill everybody then to try and sneak through. I remember that the first three games didn´t encourage a kill everybody behaviour. You were pretty much screwed once the shooting started.

Of course you have to kill everybody now. Otherwise you would not get 35x100XP per level plus all the headshot and melee bonuses. Do you even realize how much stuff you unlock with that? You are stuck in 2002 or something!

[chortles 263]

... now you have me wishing that Blacklist -- or rather, that more games -- had an Arcade Mode like COD4 did... because to my recollection that actually gave players only limited respawn, though if you were good at racking up the score multipliers that might be a

non-issue.

As I said, Conviction and Blacklist are action games with a clear emphasis on Arkham duology-style "Predator stealth", which may have unintentionally hurt the traditional stealth genre by the sheer strength of its critical and commercial success, and by said success "validating" Arkham Asylum's formula for incorporating stealth game elements instead of being a pure action game with no pretense of stealth gameplay -- instead of "you're spotted, you're dead", it's "strike and fade" or rather "hit and run".

Then again, Conviction didn't even let you hide the bodies...

[max power 21]

I liked the Arkham games. I really enjoyed the combat. There was a lot to do and there was some actual challenge. I can't say the same for the power creep in AC.

[mrcash2009 0]

I have never actually played any Splinter Cell games, not sure why, I think I was pre occupied with Raven Shield/Ghost Recon at that time.

I didn't read any comments and also agreed that the drone was silly. Clumsy unit you would only use out doors in open areas not stuck indoors :confused:. Didn't take genius to work out that they could have gone to nano tech (fly/insect level) fly on the wall type of small cam drone. Plus its played in full 3rd person, if your using a drone you should be limited to its narrow cam view, making you think about your actual options.

So it does seem to fall into that band of games at the moment that's already been mentioned, shame really.

BTW as a side note with bargain buckets and so on, what do Splinter Cell players recommend as the true version with good stealth to purchase?

[Tonci87 163]

I have never actually played any Splinter Cell games, not sure why, I think I was pre occupied with Raven Shield/Ghost Recon at that time.

I didn't read any comments and also agreed that the drone was silly. Clumsy unit you would only use out doors in open areas not stuck indoors :confused:. Didn't take genius to work out that they could have gone to nano tech (fly/insect level) fly on the wall type of small cam drone. Plus its played in full 3rd person, if your using a drone you should be limited to its narrow cam view, making you think about your actual options.

So it does seem to fall into that band of games at the moment that's already been mentioned, shame really.

BTW as a side note with bargain buckets and so on, what do Splinter Cell players recommend as the true version with good stealth to purchase?

I think there is a collection with the first three games together. Buy that!

The First three games were superb.

[krycek 349]

Ye the first 3 games are definitely good,the coop part on Chaos Theory was especially great although I'm not sure if it still works today.Starting with Derp Agent they went downhill though.

[metalcraze 290]

Yeah, although Pandora suffers from Ubi Shanghai's clumsiness. Chaos Theory is pretty much the peak of the series.

Don't expect Thief-grade of freedom and stealth though because levels in SC are quite compressed (due to consoles). However light, stance, speed of movement and level of noise still play a major part in the gameplay, just like in Thief games. I guess it can be called Thief 3 with guns (zomg).

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah about the guns:

If you get in a firefight -> You are screwed.

I still remember that moment in SC1 where you are trapped in this one room with guards rushing in to kill you. I really had to make good use of Grenades and cover to survive this.

EDIT:

If you want a taste of SC, this is one of the most impressive missions in the trilogy. You have to make your way through Seoul that is attacked by the North Korean Army

Edited March 25, 2013 by Tonci87

[chortles 263]

Ye the first 3 games are definitely good,the coop part on Chaos Theory was especially great although I'm not sure if it still works today.Starting with Derp Agent they went downhill though.

Only partly correct: while you're out-of-luck as far as the PC and current-generation console ("seventh" generation by Wikipedia reckoning) versions of Double Agent (made by Ubisoft Shangai just like Pandora Tomorrow) go, it turns out that the prior-generation console ("sixth" generation by Wikipedia reckoning) versions -- GameCube, PlayStation 2, Wii and (original) Xbox -- share only the title/cover imagery/BGMs/voice actors, otherwise they're actually different enough games that you might as well consider a look at the older-consoles version ("Version 2" on the Splinter Cell Wikia) of Double Agent!