stance adjustment, step out and lean suggestion/disccusion

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

well i finally got my hands on the Alpha and have been really impresses with it's performance compared to ArmA 2 (good job BIS, keep it up!).

after running around playing the showcases and messing around in MP and on the editor, i have come to realize that the awesome new adjustable stances have become a bit of a burden due to how they are implemented. don't get me wrong, i love the new stances, i just have come to hate how to adjust through them. as BI has it set up now you have 3 positions for the three class of stances (prone-crouch-stand). this is great and all, but the problem i am having is that i need to stop, adjust my stance, then move... there is nothing dynamic about them. you could play a whole year of MP games and only use the secondary stances a few times due to this. something needs to be changed so the player can cycle through all the stances dynamically on the move.

i had a similar problem with ArmA2 and leaning, but that was a simple matter of rebinding my lean keys to left-shift and spacebar. if there is one thing i hate, it's not being able to move around freely when leaning. with the default Q&E key binding, i have to choose either lean or move, not both. this presents a problem for me as i love to play in CQB environments, and having to take a movement finger off a movement control key is really annoying. some will say "oh just use lean toggle and you can move around while leaned just fine" i say thats not good enough. i need to be in full control of my player's movements at all times, so thats why i have my pinky and my thumb control my lean so that my WASD keys are always under control. now with the step lean also added in ArmA3, things have become complicated just like the secondary stances.

i can think of a few ways of addressing these extra stances that would make their use more streamlined and dynamic than they currently are.

here is a list of all the stances that the player can do to his character.

[Prone] 3 variants - side prone, prone and seated.

[Crouch] 3 variant - low crouch (tactical), standard crouch and high crouch

[stand] 3 variants - low stance (tactical), standard stance and standing tall

[Prone] i think there should only be two variants here. seated and fully prone. side prone should be implemented as a lean modifier to basic prone. the whole point of side lean is not to get lower, but to be able to either shoot over something like a sidewalk/debris or shoot under an object like a vehicle. currently the lean keys when prone do nothing, so why not have them function as a modifier for prone? press lean left to do a left side prone with a weapon transition to the left shoulder, and a right lean to do a right prone with the weapon shouldered on the right shoulder. this would allow players to dynamically sweep in an 180 degree arc. have it so you hold the lean key to modify the stance, and on release you return to basic prone. this would make fighting in a city environment much more fluid.

leaning(and step out stance) while in [Crouch]&[stand] i'll cover these together as they are basically the same and work with lean at the same time (move around in both stances and lean unhindered). once i changed my lean keys in ArmA2 to free up my movement fingers, combat in ArmA2 become so much more enjoyable. i can do that now in the ArmA3 alpha, but now i also have the step out stance to deal with. unfortunately just like the various stances, i have to stop moving, change the stance, then i am free to move again. this becomes extremely frustrating when in active combat with other players or AI. i find it really rare that i'll use the lean toggle function, as i like to be fluid in my motions. so why not assign that lean toggle to step out stance instead? double tap lean to step out and back while still being able to lean and control you movements.

now for the actual stances them selfs. with 3 main stances each with 2 extra positions each, do we really need to have 3 dedicated keys for them plus using the adjust key +W&S to change them? aren't the transitions through the various stances practically linear? why not just have two keys (raise and lower stance) controlling it all with an addition of a 3rd key as a modifier. here's an example [i'll use X & V] - starting out standing, press X to lower your stance. keep pressing to cycle down the stances until you are fully prone. to go fully prone from standing just press CTRL(L)+X to go prone. press CTRL(L) + X again to return to your previous stance, or CTRL(L) + C to stand up. when prone you use the C key to raise you stance, and keep pressing to cycle through the stances. again at any stance press CTRL(L) + C to stand completely. this will allow all those other secondary stances to be used in a dynamic way, while not limiting the player's movements.

what does everyone else think? how user friendly is the current secondary stances and step out functions? personally i would much rather have a single stance modifier key that i press and use my scroll wheel to cycle up or down through the various stances. unlikely to happen.

[dwaight 17]

is it just me or does the prone only can use right side leaning?

[defk0n_NL 2]

You might be playing the game wrong, You are not suppose to run into a enemy camp while getting shot - only to find out that you dont have enough "control", pun intended.

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

so what you are saying is that it is normal to come to a complete stop squat a bit lower, THEN get back to moving again? do you use a walker or a cane?

i never mentioned anything about running at the enemy. what i'm trying to get through is that being able to completely control not only movement but also your stance while on the move would be a HUGE improvement over what it currently is set at.

been playing over the past couple of hours and the guys in the TS server im in are also complaining about it. it would be a waste to leave it as is. it's just something that gets in the way and would sooner get you shot than save your ass.

You might be playing the game wrong, You are not suppose to run into a enemy camp while getting shot - only to find out that you dont have enough "control", pun intended.

[defk0n_NL 2]

You are still playing the game wrong - You are not suppose to move and change stance while running into a enemy camp - only to find out that you dont have enough "control", no more intended pun :/

You are required to look into the distance a bit, or atleast around you - while crouch sprinting to your destination. Where you can start peeking around corners.

Start low and end up high unless you are certain of no danger around you.

[nicolasroger 11]

may I suggest to simply bind left ctrl+mousewheel (up/down) for the stances and left ctrl+ mousewheel (left/right) for leaning.

That would solve all the problems. So far though, I am not able to make that bind. I will need to look at thing more closely

*post edited to reflect better what I meant

Edited March 8, 2013 by nicolasroger

[defk0n_NL 2]

may I suggest to simply bind left ctrl+mousewheel (up/down/left/right)

(Yes, I have a left right on my mousewheel)

That would solve all the problems. So far though, I am not able to make that bind. I will need to look at thing more closely

Have a look at https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/DIK_KeyCodes

You are not able to modify a ctrl key normally but i am sure its possible if you go into your profile settings.

Only thing you need to find out are the DIK keys for your specific mouse.

[nicolasroger 11]

thx, i will take a look at that

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

defk0n_NL you seem to be having a hard time understanding the whole point of this thread and the use of the different stances...

a combat environment is dynamic, a combatant needs to be flexible in their movements. if i am approaching cover, i want to be able to adjust my stance as i approach it to best suit my needs. i have been able to get by in ArmA2 with just stand/crouch/prone, but would also like to take advantage of the added stances. as it is right now, i can not change into those different stances without having to stop. that is not dynamic at all.

what i am asking in this thread is for people to post up possible solution to make things flow better. saying "your playing it wrong" is childish, especially since i have been playing BIS games since the release of the Operation Flashpoint demo.

"You are not suppose to move and change stance while running into a enemy camp" what exactly do you mean by that? when you attack an enemy camp, you want to be able to duck and weave between cover, pop up and take pot shots and move. being fluid and dynamic is as important as being able to shoot.

nicolasroger, good suggestion. though i highly doubt BI would make that work. if you can get it to work by changing the config manually, please report back. i'll have a look my self.

---------- Post added at 06:09 ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 ----------

it does, thats why i suggested that there is only basic prone, and you use the lean keys to roll into the left or right prone positions. ctrl+lean keys makes you actually roll just like evasive left and right does.

is it just me or does the prone only can use right side leaning?

Edited March 8, 2013 by [FHA]Dynamo

[mordeaniischaos 3]

Hmm. I used them a lot. You only really need up and down to be dynamic as you move, and at that point I have to wonder why you'd need any more control than crouch and prone as when you start moving, you only have 3 levels of height; prone, "crouching," and standing.

Keeping the side to side stuff as it is lets you lean out of those as well.

I wouldn't mind them being a little easier to get at, but there are few times you really need to move a lot and be very precise with your stance. The point of these smaller adjustments is to pop out of cover. Beyond that, you have all the control you need. If you don't want to be up when moving, you want to be as low as you can be while still being able to move relatively quickly, and that's how it's handled in the game. When you are moving, you only can be in the three main stances, you don't have any adjustment. And that's a good thing in my opinion, as it means if your'e crouched, you know you can move to cover without being in that upper crouch stance, which would expose you to a lot more fire. And having to manage getting back to the right stance to move safely would be worse than the potential benefits would be good.

[kernriver 4]

What keys are you guys using to adjust stances? I can't get it to work, I know I'm doing something wrong.

[dwaight 17]

What keys are you guys using to adjust stances? I can't get it to work, I know I'm doing something wrong.

CTRL + Q Z S D ( mine is Azerty so bassicly just hold CTRL and click movement keys for it is : Z D S Q E A

[kernriver 4]

CTRL + Q Z S D ( mine is Azerty so bassicly just hold CTRL and click movement keys for it is : Z D S Q E A

Yeah, I'm stupid, so? :p <-- talking to myself

In all the excitement I didn't realize it works with adjust+movement keys, I was trying to use adjust+stance keys.:o

It works great, now I just need some practice.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Kernriver

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

well the adjustment key can be rebound in the config menu, anyone know how to change it from W & S? i would love to just bind stance up and down to my scroll wheel.

[kremator 1065]

Would it be possible to bind stance ONLY to mousewheel without having to press a modifier key?

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

i'm looking into that.. found that there is keyCarGearUp[]={};

keyCarGearDwn[]={};

keyCarShiftFwd1[]={};

keyCarShiftFwd2[]={};

keyCarShiftFwd3[]={};

keyCarShiftFwd4[]={};

keyCarShiftFwd5[]={};

keyCarShiftFwd6[]={};

keyCarShiftFwd7[]={};

keyCarShiftFwd8[]={};

keyCarShiftRvs1[]={};

keyCarShiftRvs2[]={};

so it supports shifting through vehicle gears.. hummm still figuring it out.. i'm trying to find the keycode for scroll up and down, as well as the command for stance up and down.

edit: key 17 (W) and key 31 (S) are the keys used to adjust stance, but they are only active when in use with key 29 (left ctrl)...

keyPrevAction[]={1048580,26}; {scroll up, [}

keyNextAction[]={1048581,27}; {scroll down, ]}

so now i know what the key codes for the scroll is, the only problem is that there is no command listed for stance up and down.. i wonder if someone from BIS could lend a hand here. if we could get a stance up and down bind without the use of the adjust key, we could assign it to something other than (what ever bound key)adjust- +W(stance up)+S(stance down). that would eliminate the need to stop to chance stance completely and add a whole new dynamic to moving around. hell it doesn't even need to be bound to the scroll wheel, just anything other than the movement keys would be huge!

Edit #2

ok.. if this is what i think it is, i might just have solved this..

keyMoveUp[]={486539310};

keyMoveDown[]={486539309};

large numbers like those are key combos. as to what the are, i have no idea. i'm going to go ahead and add the scroll up and down to these two commands and see if it does anything (fingers crossed).

Edited March 9, 2013 by [FHA]Dynamo

[chortles 263]

The only aspect putting me off so far is that urban prone only works in-game towards the character's right and not towards the character's left so that for the character's left-hand-side one must still use other methods (i.e. standard prone or sidestep/lean).

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

ok.. keymoveup/down is simply crouch and prone.. sigh..

486539281 is the code for (left Ctrl + W) which is the adjust key + stance up... so i can't seem to find the specific command for stance up/down.. real bummer.

i hope someone from BIS can clarify that it is even possible to change the stance up and down keys at all.

---------- Post added at 10:24 ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 ----------

too true. thats why i suggested that they remove the side ways stance as a prone position and have it work as a lean. so when prone, you press the lean keys to roll to the left or right side prone position. example - go prone, press left lean and your character rolls onto his left side prone pos. release lean key and he returns to normal prone. same with right side prone. this will let us be able to maneuver around cover/obstacles. combine that with the ability to swap the weapon from shoulder to shoulder like it's done in real life, then we have our selfs one hell of a soldier sim. an example of that is that when i lean left around a corner, the correct thing to do is to switch my rifle to my left shoulder as to minimize my exposure at that corner. when leaning right, i should have the rifle on my right shoulder. so swapping shoulders could and likely should be automatically bound with the lean keys. i'm sure south paws would also like this feature as they can choose to run around with their weapon on their left side, just tap the lean key to swap shoulders.

The only aspect putting me off so far is that urban prone only works in-game towards the character's right and not towards the character's left so that for the character's left-hand-side one must still use other methods (i.e. standard prone or sidestep/lean).

[andersson 285]

I was checking the forum as I was about to suggest some improvement myself. I agree that it would be nice to define our own stance modifier keys. I never use keys for prone, crouch and stand (default z,x,c), I only use stance up and stance down. They are assigned to page up/down (I use numpad for movement). It would be so much better for me to adjust my stances by using modifier key + page up/down instead of walk forward/backwards.

This way, hopefully, I could do it while moving as right now I have to stand still to adjust them.

Maybe I can find a way to re-define some keys in the config, but this should imo be a choice in settings. Let us choose ourself as we all have our preferences (mine dating back to OFP 2001).

I also totally agree that their should be left/right lean in prone, instead of now being the lowest stance only to the right side.

[ColinCJ 10]

Guys prone lean and peak left and right ? I seem to roll when I press q and e while prone ? yes I`m new. imagine the shock I got when I wanted to peak and ended up fully visible.:butbut:

[kernriver 4]

The only aspect putting me off so far is that urban prone only works in-game towards the character's right and not towards the character's left so that for the character's left-hand-side one must still use other methods (i.e. standard prone or sidestep/lean).

Yes, this is odd. It would be good if urban prone worked with lean keys. So once you're prone, press adjust key and lean key (left or right).

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

why even bother with an adjust key? to do the tactical roll it's using evasive left and right, lean does nothing on prone, so why not assign lean to left and right "urban" prone?

the main thing that i'm pushing to change is to have the stance up/down bind-able to any key/mouse button/scroll. i want to have my WASD (up-left-down-right) free of clutter that might get in the way of always being in control of my actions.

this is my current key layout with what i would like to have with the stance up/down function.

WASD - movement *i don't want anything being added to these keys, they need to be left clear as to allow me to move while doing other actions at the same time.*

left shift - lean left *double tap to step out* to remove Left Ctrl+A/D as when doing this, i can not move left and right until i finish the action..

Spacebar - lean right *double tap to step out*

left Ctrl+W - sprint *currently this is [adjust]+[stance up].. really hate that..* [adjust] can be rebound, but [stance up/down] can not (and this is what needs to be changed).

Alt - toggle walk

Q - toggle tactical pace

R - optics

T - optics mode toggle (from 3x optic to reddot sight)

F - fire mode select (should only cycle trough rifle fire mode, and not include the grenade launcher)

Z - reload

X - prone *XCV - left Ctrl+W/S, can be reduced to just 2 keys for raise and lower stance, or set it to scroll wheel on the mouse.*

C - crouch

V- stand

just binding stance up/down to two keys means that the adjust key, stance up, stance down, prone, crouch and stand can all be controlled by two keys. adjust wouldn't even be needed.

Yes, this is odd. It would be good if urban prone worked with lean keys. So once you're prone, press adjust key and lean key (left or right).

Edited March 9, 2013 by [FHA]Dynamo

[andersson 285]

Adjust key or not, it would be good if we could define our own key/keycombos instead of adjust+up/down and urban prone. I can , in my key setup, find logical double key presses to facilitate the new moves. Example; when prone - the normal lean right key I use as roll right. If I double tap that I could do an urban prone. Best would be to have an urban prone left and right. Fits right in for me.

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

well that's it right, give us the option to choose. let us configure it to how we like it. anything to reduce the total amount of keys used.

like for me i have the tactical roll (evasive left/right) set as Left Ctrl +A/D. this works for me. if i could use my lean left/right keys to use the urban prone left/right, i would be happy.

all these suggestions are to help the player become an efficient gun fighter.

Adjust key or not, it would be good if we could define our own key/keycombos instead of adjust+up/down and urban prone. I can , in my key setup, find logical double key presses to facilitate the new moves. Example; when prone - the normal lean right key I use as roll right. If I double tap that I could do an urban prone. Best would be to have an urban prone left and right. Fits right in for me.

Edited March 9, 2013 by [FHA]Dynamo

[Nutlink 10]

While the current implementation is far better than what we had previously, I'd kill to have something like Rainbow Six Raven Shields fluid movement. You could inch yourself up, down, left, or right. Yeah, you had to stand still to do it, but you had a ton of control over your character.