Terrain Underground complexes?

[meshcarver 12]

Hey all,

I've JUST started the process for a new island, and want it to basically be more for the ARMA3 engine than ARMA2- it'l take sometime anyway!

What I am wondering though, and hope someone can give a pretty solid answer, is will ARMA 3 provide us modders with a really good way to create and integrate small/large underground areas..?

I mean even organic (caves) and structured ones like bunkers/silos etc..?

Any info is appreciated chaps,

Marc

[HKFlash 9]

With the current AI, underground structures are useless.

[ProfTournesol 956]

IIRC underground facilities are considered as obstacles by AI, even if they are walking on the ground over them (Marek talks about that subject in the last interview).

Edited September 4, 2012 by ProfTournesol

[Smurf 12]

And if we forget the AI, it is technically possible?

[mr burns 132]

IIRC underground facilities are considered as obstacles by AI, even if they are walking on the ground over them (Marek talks about that subject in the last interview).

That was the reason for no underground structures at least ..

The reason for no AI improvement was mentioned somewhere else on this forum by a dev. Essentially the original AI developers are gone, and noone understands their gibberish undocumented code anymore, so now BI and us are stuck with some basic "config fiddling" around the broken base.

[Raptor 10]

And if we forget the AI, it is technically possible?

I think we will see. Dean Hall said they want integrate underground structures or some similar basics in Dayz.

The underground building system sounds like it could be more of a game changer. These underground spaces would be instanced, cut off from the main game world. “The existing map will be more like a battleground where you go in to explore and find resources, and then you’ll retreat back to areas that you dig out. You know Red Faction’s destruction? Wouldn’t it be great to be clearing out an underground cavern on that basis. Obviously this is super ambitious. Small steps, big dreams.â€

Working together, players could hollow out these underground spaces and set up shop. “Maybe they’ve got a hydroponics lab, built some generators, they’re starting to concrete the base of the cavern and they actually build their own subterranean city. Then another faction comes in and tries to take that over. No safe spaces.â€

So, because this is DayZ and most every action carries some kind of risk, whether it’s creating noise or taking up time and leaving you vulnerable, what’s the drawback of spending time carving out a new underground room? “I think, definitely time investment. I see these becoming to DayZ what capital ships are to EVE. They’ll require a significant amount of people to do it. We’d like to keep it relatively authentic. Not taking as much time as it does in real life necessarily. Obviously digging out dirt would be relatively easy, but then you come across some stone and it’s going to take some time. If we can pull that off, it would be really awesome. “

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/08/15/dayz-on-consoles-could-happen

Can you tell me a bit more about that plan for underground building?

Yeah, well, building was not really working above ground. That said, I think there will always be some limited ways that players can build above ground, but possibly – and this isn’t set in stone at the moment – is to approach it from the point of view of underground construction. One option is something like Skyrim. So in Skyrim you walk up to a dungeon entrance, you look at the door, hit the button, and it transports you to that instance, that’s kind of what we are looking at for underground construction. So you would go up to the grate in the ground, go up to this hole, and you’d dig out that hole yourself. That instanced-style construction offers us maximum flexibility without too many strings. Also, having the construction occur in a separate world to the battleground is a good idea because it allows us to be a lot more creative. You could dig things out, Red Faction style, and expand that structure over time, maybe build a hydroponics lab, have a generator, air conditioning, concrete it, have it collapse, those kinds of things.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/08/17/day-z-standalone/

I think it would be interesting and definitely open up a new immersion and gameplay, but as Mr.Burns, maybe want to say, it's better to concentrate on the "real" problems of the gameplay as to include more and more new features. (beside the fact that Dayz is a different DevTeam with other focus)

Edited September 4, 2012 by Raptor

[.kju 3245]

According to the latest interview with Ivan underground structures wont be in the A3 release most likely but should appear later in a patch or so.

Also dayZ is wanting them badly. Most likely the reason A3 will have them too at some point.

The original AI developer was Suma, at least part of the team. From what I know he is still with the company. So better dont spread false rumors.

[mr burns 132]

The original AI developer was Suma, at least part of the team. From what I know he is still with the company. So better dont spread false rumors.

Its somewhere out here, stated by mod or dev, that for the exact reason of "guy is gone" there could´nt be made as much improvements as we´d all want.

Maybe the one who posted it will enlighten us more as to what extent this is valid for future developments.

[Smurf 12]

@AI: In my understanding, the "AI guy" is gone and they are trying to clean\fix the code base to maybe later improve upon that. That's why we won't see any big improvement at release.

@Underground: DayZ's solution isn't what we are looking for. He want to create a door to another world, that would be underground facilities. What we need is trenches, bunkers and so.

[meshcarver 12]

Damn... this isn't good news really is it..?

I was hoping to hold off on the terrain of my new island, so I could incorporate a LOT of underground areas for exploration...

Basically, it's possible though..? Multi layered underground tunnels etc..?

Tbh, for immersion and atmosphere, I'd consider putting them in anyway even if I couldn't include AI paths etc- it's just be cool to wander down into them... ;)

[oldbear 390]

Here I can quote from what I had understood on the subject when speaking with Ivan in the Gamescom mayhem :

In fact, if I understood correctly, BIS made lots of tests that work more or less well. Ivan told me that for example in VBS, they found a way to include objects underground to tunnels, passages ... and it works in VBS, but in Arma3 environment , AI perceives the object hidden in the ground as a barrier and tends to avoid it... which is not the goal .... Furthermore, the IA refuse to engage in tunnels created. So for the moment, no underground objects in Arma3.

Nevertheless, let's remember the remarkable work done by Sumrak on his Namalsk Island, the underground structures done there is a true unique achievement !

We can have underground structure in Arma2, we just need a structure build like every known building, but build to be hidden in a "hole" make in purpose in the terrain. On the [ADO] Oring island my game team mate Bloodric has built, you can get a glimpse at such tunnel build with vanilla parts. But on this map as well as the map I built myself featuring a tunnel, the AI tend to avoid entering such structures.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Old Bear

[meshcarver 12]

Hi Old Bear,

I'm a newbie here, so don't really understand what you mean man..?

I've played Namalsk (Great map!) and the underground part with fighting the AI soldiers down there too.

What was the method Sumrak used to accomplish this please..?

When you say a "hole", do you mean the area ABOVE the underground section is sort of off-limits to the player and AI..? Like a terrain deadzone sort of thing?

I don't really understand- but bottom line is, we CAN have UNDERGROUND complexes yes..?

[Smurf 12]

Yes we can, but they're somehow "hacky", proned to have glitches (mainly graphical). An example from a WIP map from Project Reality:

The whole cave is an object that is placed in a "void of terrain" instead of what is done in VBS2 (@5min) wich is a object within the terrain:

[oldbear 390]

@ meanmachine1 : atm, to get an underground structure in Arma2 we must have :

- an addon maker making a structure build to be an underground structure including the line up to the ground textures,

- a map maker making a big hole in the terrain he is building.

Then the map maker will put the structure in the hole ... et voila !

In Arma2 not such fancy features Smurf is teasing us with, it's an exclusive VBS content :(

[Nicholas 5]

Bohemia Interactive never confirmed that there were going to be caves anyways, did they? Everyone was just judging from a picture. Which if we remember back, ArmA 2 also had a picture of an underground entrance but had no underground structures.

Everyone is too quick to make conclusions based upon a picture. I suppose all them pictures showing UFOs must mean UFOs are real as well?

Also remember that VBS2 is a military tool. It is designed for the military. Just because VBS2 has something or is getting something does not automatically mean that the ArmA series will get it.

[onlyrazor 11]

Bohemia Interactive never confirmed that there were going to be caves anyways, did they? Everyone was just judging from a picture. Which if we remember back, ArmA 2 also had a picture of an underground entrance but had no underground structures.

Everyone is too quick to make conclusions based upon a picture. I suppose all them pictures showing UFOs must mean UFOs are real as well?

Also remember that VBS2 is a military tool. It is designed for the military. Just because VBS2 has something or is getting something does not automatically mean that the ArmA series will get it.

Indeed, but the fact that it is doable in the engine is the important part.

[Robster 11]

Indeed, but the fact that it is doable in the engine is the important part.

x2

PS: making caves in PR FATA is some rather painful exercise ;)

[MisTyK 12]

ok, Caves and other underground complex breack AI perception of world, but, is not say many things make for PvP ?

The sea open new field that a fact, but caves system will make another way to play the game. Ex sea caves, town used water tunnels, mountain cache, road, train or metro heavy tunnel...

An other way to use the terrain, not only by using placed item on ground.

Would really want to see some use of mine entrence or possibily to use variety of pre-built system for mapper. I have see in PhysX editor show, possibility for mapper to " eat " the ground for create realistic tunnel.

[dmarkwick 261]

I should like to see underground editor objects included, even with the caveat that it breaks AI pathfinding. Could even have a special editor class for them :)

[oldbear 390]

@ OnlyRazor : at the moment, the Arma2 engine, does not allow easy underground structure building and placement such as the nice VBS2 feature shown in this video, of course we -map makers- can build map with underground structures - provided by a friendly addon-maker, but there are a lot of obstacles such as the terrain grid size, the ground textures and the physical effects induced by the joint between the structure and the terrain. To get underground structure the Real Virtuality engine must be enhanced, modified, patched ...

[BobcatBob 10]

Maybe the fact that the VBS2 AI have exAItment allows them to use underground structures properly whereas Arma 3's AI doesn't.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

I started an an underground complex for the Australia Isle map sometime ago. It was basicaly a series of connected buildings and bridges designed to fit a specific topographical hole. Infantry AI would occasionaly enter it but even with the existance of bridges and AI paths they would never drive/walk over it. I thought that it had something to do with the AI only percieving paths in 2 dimensions, but A3 may be different in this regard. I do recall it being said that they have had to teach AI the 3rd dimension to get diving behavior correct. Not holding my breath to hear its fixed but I'm curious to know if we will at least see some improvement.

[meshcarver 12]

Wow,

some great feedback here guys...

As far as the AI side of it goes for my intents- it's NOT essential tbh.

As long as I could have some pretty decent sized underground tunnels, sewer, rooms, cave structures, I'll be happy.

For these purposes (NO AI), is it a case of when making the terrain, I basically "cut/scoop" out a large deep hole of the the terrain (Size will cover the dimensions of the underground), then place an object (System of ready-made tunnels/rooms) custom made into said hole..?

Is that what you mean in the description please?

In that case, I'd also have to build a sort of "terrain like hat" to cover the top/ground hole area, and make it unenterable yes? High fence etc?

If so, that sounds pretty straight forwards (I'll regret saying that lol..!).

As I say, I've no issue with not being able to stick AI down there- it's more of an atmospheric/exploration thing I'm trying to do here.

So all in all it IS doable yes..?

Also, just an aside- do the AI problems occur because the underground structures have multi level floors, or because if they walk on the terrain OVER the underground, it'll confuse them basically?

Cheers again guys,

Marc

[Baraka 10]

AFAIK you need to make the underground things like houses. The Roof would be the "terrain like hat", like you said.

So you need a hole in your terrain. In this you can place your structures. After that you need a plate or something which covers the hole. So the ground over your structures is a object, not terrain. So the AI would handle it as great as bridges.

It should be possible to do some waypoints in your structures like the OA Houses was done. That should allow some basic Movement with scripts.

Guess with a bit "setPos" for the AI they would at least stand their Ground like in an old FPS-Shooter.

There was an Rambo-Campaign some time ago where the AI in some Caves actet very well.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Baraka

[meshcarver 12]

Cheers Baraka,

this is looking more and more possible with all these posts advice.

One other relevant question I reckon is, is it best to have ANY underground areas ABOVE the sea level..?

Because if they were BELOW the sea level, wouldn't they be classed as underwater or something?

Thanks