Madeon 6 Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) batto said: Both are some. One is deliberate activity to kill you when you leave cover, one is deliberate activity to kill you when leave you cover. Wrong. The purpose of suppression fire is to keep the enemy pinned and unable to return fire. Read the video description posted on Youtube - 8xdj0lBklvM Edited August 30, 2012 by Madeon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmarkwick 261 Posted August 30, 2012 batto said: OK, let's say I follow your advice and outsmart my opponent but I miss all the shots. He can kill me while I reload but he can't aim properly because of shaking hands effect from "suppressive fire" (which isn't really suppressive fire but me being dumb and not hitting my shots). So I finally hit him with next magazine. Would you give him same advice? You've made it sound like two guys just standing facing each other slugging it out with bullets. In such gameplay, feel free to turn suppression off :) ---------- Post added at 07:11 ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 ---------- Iroquois Pliskin said: I could agree to additional "heavy breathing", "aim shake" for every "registered" bullet that whizzes by your character, in say, a bubble of 10 metres. Could the Devs implement that? Bullets landing in your direct proximity already trigger this, but on the other hand, clearly audible bullet cracks, which are fired in your direction, do not, though both are equally "scary".Nothing else apart from the above. Wait what? Now you're agreeable to suppression effects? Why the switcharound? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maddogx 13 Posted August 30, 2012 Iroquois Pliskin said: I could agree to additional "heavy breathing", "aim shake" for every "registered" bullet that whizzes by your character, in say, a bubble of 10 metres. Could the Devs implement that? Bullets landing in your direct proximity already trigger this, but on the other hand, clearly audible bullet cracks, which are fired in your direction, do not, though both are equally "scary".Nothing else apart from the above. Sounds reasonable to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Madeon 6 Posted August 30, 2012 This guy does an excellent demonstration/explanation of suppression fire - n8b0ejSWILU&feature=related Anyone who says that they would pop their head out from behind cover when under accurate suppression fire is full of shit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liquidpinky 11 Posted August 30, 2012 Madeon said: Wrong. The purpose of suppression fire is to keep the enemy pinned and unable to return fire.Read the video description posted on Youtube - 8xdj0lBklvM The taliban will probably have blurry vision, only because they are smacked out of their tiny skulls. Are we simulating that now too, for all the factions? Can I have the optin to play as a drug free soldier then? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
batto 17 Posted August 30, 2012 @Madeon: Stop posting stupid videos of SUPPRESSIVE FIRE. It adds absolutely nothing to discussion. 1) I can't see and hear what suppressed Taliban see & hear therefore it's no justification for artifical CoD sfx and gfx in ArmA 2) Taliban doesn't come out because they don't want to die, simple, this equals to not wanting to be fragged in-game. For newbies like you who need to be reminded to not pop out head this crappy gfx & sfx have to be optional client side setting. If you need interactive movie with SUPPRESSIVE FIRE scenes that feels like speshul-forcaz tacticool action depressive whatever, there's new CoD every year with such scenes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmarkwick 261 Posted August 30, 2012 batto said: @Madeon: Stop posting stupid videos of SUPPRESSIVE FIRE. It adds absolutely nothing to discussion.1) I can't see and hear what suppressed Taliban see & hear therefore it's no justification for artifical CoD sfx and gfx in ArmA 2) Taliban doesn't come out because they don't want to die, simple, this equals to not wanting to be fragged in-game. For newbies like you who need to be reminded to not pop out head this crappy gfx & sfx have to be optional client side setting. If you need interactive movie with SUPPRESSIVE FIRE scenes that feels like speshul-forcaz tacticool action depressive whatever, there's new CoD every year with such scenes. How's the anger management program going? ;) So... another "go play CoD" response. Seems to be a regular occurrence from people who wish to play ArmA in a "I'm awesome" way. Almost the very definition of irony :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Madeon 6 Posted August 30, 2012 Liquidpinky said: The taliban will probably have blurry vision Loss of peripheral vision (tunnel vision) is the most common optical symptom of extreme fear. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
batto 17 Posted August 30, 2012 DMarkwick said: So... another "go play CoD" response. "Gimme CoD crap" request require "Go play CoD" response. DMarkwick said: Seems to be a regular occurrence from people who wish to play ArmA in a "I'm awesome" way. Almost the very definition of irony :) I don't know how you, but some people, me included, play games (even realistic milsim games) to win. Be it finishing the objective or eliminating AI it's always same. ---------- Post added at 11:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 AM ---------- Madeon said: Loss of peripheral vision (tunnel vision) is the most common optical symptom of extreme fear. We talking fear again? OK, what about the 12 sniper situation? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Madeon 6 Posted August 30, 2012 batto said: We talking fear again? OK, what about the 12 sniper situation? I'm confident that if you were in the midst of 12 enemy snipers you would be dead before you seen them... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmarkwick 261 Posted August 30, 2012 batto said: "Gimme CoD crap" request require "Go play CoD" response. To be fair, I never mentioned CoD, and neither has anyone else other than the "go play CoD" respondees. I've actually never played it so my suggestions come from thought, not a desire to copy it. Your assumptions do you no favours, just try to stick with actual discussion instead of sneering contempt maybe. Quote I don't know how you, but some people, me included, play games (even realistic milsim games) to win. Be it finishing the objective or eliminating AI it's always same. I play to be entertained, it doesn't actually bother me to lose, how you lose a mission is as entertaining as how you win one. Getting back to base/reaching a safe area finishes the game for me. Whether I achieved my objective isn't my main goal, survival is. But if your main goal is "win" then I can understand you needing less in the way of realism. I'm not exactly a realism "nut" and so I too like to switch suppression on & off. ---------- Post added at 09:11 ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 ---------- batto said: We talking fear again? OK, what about the 12 sniper situation? I think that was explained? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
batto 17 Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) DMarkwick said: To be fair, I never mentioned CoD, and neither has anyone else other than the "go play CoD" respondees. I've actually never played it so my suggestions come from thought, not a desire to copy it. Your assumptions do you no favours, just try to stick with actual discussion instead of sneering contempt maybe. You didn't mention CoD. You mentioned CoD feature. That is turning game into interactive movie where you no longer completely control the brain of your avatar. If somebody at this point still posts videos of suppressive fire as a "proof" of "suppressive effect" he clearly wants to play interactive movie. Eg. feel the atmosphere of those "awesome soldiers doing suppressive fire". That's CoD. DMarkwick said: I play to be entertained, it doesn't actually bother me to lose, how you lose a mission is as entertaining as how you win one. Getting back to base/reaching a safe area finishes the game for me. Whether I achieved my objective isn't my main goal, survival is. But if your main goal is "win" then I can understand you needing less in the way of realism. I'm not exactly a realism "nut" and so I too like to switch suppression on & off. I completely agree. But it doesn't change the fact that we both play the game to win. I don't actually rage when I lose (only sometimes). But the goal of the gameplay is to win to some degree. That is accomplish the mission, survive, ... DMarkwick said: I think that was explained? No it wasn't. It was left unresovled. Edited August 30, 2012 by batto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sqb-sma 66 Posted August 30, 2012 I, personally, hate games that impose effects on me to simulate me being scared, that's not the route to immersion. Personally, I want to BE scared. In my opinion, this requires two things: 1) Motivation to live, a game like (I'll just use COD because it's the thing to hate it, but even Red Orchestra suffers from this) COD has such short respawn times it's ok to just throw your life away for your team to advance a meter or two, you'll be back on the battlefield within 25 seconds. Arma has this down pat (woohoo, no work required!) 2) Frightening effect. Bullets going nearby are scary, especially if dot point 1 is involved, make the player aware of those bullets. The best way to do this is with distinct and loud bullet cracks (see JSRS, bullet cracks are really nice in that). This makes you jump out of your chair if you're taken by surprise, and keep you head down if bullets are roaring by. It also should impede communication a little (cracks should be significantly louder than most other sounds, but especially in the lower "reverb" frequencies that obscure voice communication. The aim isn't for the player to tear off his headset or turn down the volume!). There, two realistic effects of suppression mirrored in a video game. I don't think Arma really needs anything more! Also, this would highlight the tradeoff between subsonic and supersonic ammunition, the cracks your bullets make may give you away, but they cause suppressive effects, whereas with subsonic rounds an enemy may not even be aware they are being engaged. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmarkwick 261 Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) batto said: You didn't mention CoD. You mentioned CoD feature. That is turning game into interactive movie where you no longer completely control the brain of your avatar. If somebody at this point still posts videos of suppressive fire as a "proof" of "suppressive effect" he clearly wants to play interactive movie. Eg. feel the atmosphere of those "awesome soldiers doing suppressive fire". That's CoD. So any feature in CoD is a CoD feature? W to walk forward? Inventory in a window? I'd like to discuss suppression as it affects ArmA not whether it happens to appear in another game. Also, I discuss suppression effects not specifically blurring & tinting etc. Quote No it wasn't. It was left unresovled. me said: Well, the intent is different. One is a deliberate activity to deter you from action, one is a deliberate activity to tempt you into action. One removes your efficiency in action, the other preserves it I think resolves it :) Edited August 30, 2012 by DMarkwick Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Madeon 6 Posted August 30, 2012 "The key to managing that fear, especially for those who operate under extreme stress on a near-daily basis, is to acknowledge it, says Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, a retired West Point psychology professor". People in highly stressful situations can experience profound and disturbing physical and mental effects, Grossman says, such as: Vision — Loss of near and peripheral vision and depth perception. The eyes revert to what Grossman calls the "default survival position." Hearing — Even loud sounds like that of gunfire may seem muted or are not heard at all. Movement — Loss of bowel and bladder control. Loss of fine motor control, which can be marked by shaking, and complex motor control. Remaining calm is crucial for personnel such as bomb technicians or military pilots. "If our pilots lose one iota of fine motor control skill on a close approach ... we're all having a bad day," Grossman says. Thought — A slowed sense of perception and time. People may literally become scared out of their wits as blood drains from the forebrain. This leaves the midbrain, which Grossman calls "the part of your brain that's the same as your dog," as dominant. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92644050 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
batto 17 Posted August 30, 2012 DMarkwick said: So any feature in CoD is a CoD feature? W to walk forward? Inventory in a window? I'd like to discuss suppression as it affects ArmA not whether it happens to appear in another game. Strawman argument. I was talking specifically about game controlling brain of your avatar to create deep atmosphere (interactive movie). DMarkwick said: I think resolves it :) No it doesn't. me said: Both are some. One is deliberate activity to kill you when you leave cover, one is deliberate activity to kill you when leave you cover. Keep doing it what are you doing. There's not enough garbage in this thread. ---------- Post added at 11:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ---------- Madeon said: ... some info about fear ... How can game simulate fear? Explain how to simulate 12 sniper situation first. Or squad-approaching-hidden-lonely-man situation. Then we can consider how those effects should look like. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmarkwick 261 Posted August 30, 2012 batto said: Strawman argument. I was talking specifically about game controlling brain of your avatar to create deep atmosphere (interactive movie). And I'm talking about suppression effects. Quote Keep doing it what are you doing. There's not enough garbage in this thread. You really cannot appreciate the difference in those two examples? Why would you decide to insist that suppression effects must be applied to the second example, when clearly the intent is different? Is it to bolster a weak argument? ;) ---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 ---------- batto said: How can game simulate fear? Explain how to simulate 12 sniper situation first. Or squad-approaching-hidden-lonely-man situation. Then we can consider how those effects should look like. Jesus. Christ. OK I think I'm done :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
batto 17 Posted August 30, 2012 DMarkwick said: And I'm talking about suppression effects. Yeah. And I'm saying that I like ArmA beceause it's not interactive movie that compensates lack of physicial simulation with artifical sfx & gfx simulating your fear or something in brain of your avatar who's fearless Rambo all the time _except_ when incoming bullets hits nearby. DMarkwick said: You really cannot appreciate the difference in those two examples? Why would you decide to insist that suppression effects must be applied to the second example, when clearly the intent is different? Is it to bolster a weak argument? ;) Both means you can't leave cover. Both means you're f*cked up. In terms of fear (high adrenaline production, heavy breathing, ...) they're both same. And please don't bring the phrase "suppression effects" again or state first if it's fear or training wheels for noobs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmarkwick 261 Posted August 30, 2012 batto said: Both means you can't leave cover. Both means you're f*cked up. In terms of fear (high adrenaline production, heavy breathing, ...) they're both same. Hmm. No. I believe you have a fundamental misunderstanding about it, which seems to be persistent. I'll leave it :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guess Who 10 Posted August 30, 2012 SQB-SMA said: I, personally, hate games that impose effects on me to simulate me being scared, that's not the route to immersion. Personally, I want to BE scared. In my opinion, this requires two things:[..] Good post, I fully agree with you. The so called suppression effects as they are in ArmA II nowadays are barely tolerable. But they don't add anything to immersion. Doing the sound effects right would be tenfold more immersing than any artificial gfx effect or any imposed loss of control. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rye1 22 Posted August 30, 2012 Madeon said: "The key to managing that fear, especially for those who operate under extreme stress on a near-daily basis, is to acknowledge it, says Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, a retired West Point psychology professor".People in highly stressful situations can experience profound and disturbing physical and mental effects, Grossman says, such as: Vision — Loss of near and peripheral vision and depth perception. The eyes revert to what Grossman calls the "default survival position." Hearing — Even loud sounds like that of gunfire may seem muted or are not heard at all. Movement — Loss of bowel and bladder control. Loss of fine motor control, which can be marked by shaking, and complex motor control. Remaining calm is crucial for personnel such as bomb technicians or military pilots. "If our pilots lose one iota of fine motor control skill on a close approach ... we're all having a bad day," Grossman says. Thought — A slowed sense of perception and time. People may literally become scared out of their wits as blood drains from the forebrain. This leaves the midbrain, which Grossman calls "the part of your brain that's the same as your dog," as dominant. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92644050 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chortles 263 Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) SQB-SMA said: 1) Motivation to live, a game like (I'll just use COD because it's the thing to hate it, but even Red Orchestra suffers from this) COD has such short respawn times it's ok to just throw your life away for your team to advance a meter or two, you'll be back on the battlefield within 25 seconds. Arma has this down pat (woohoo, no work required!)This is not something that Arma has down pat -- all you have to do to achieve "motivation to live" is turn off or otherwise restrict respawn in the "round"/mission; I've already seen and played a free-for-all deathmatch with quick respawn in ARMA... and it was frankly my favorite ARMA experience ever.(Ironically, "throw your life away" is actually more viable in objective-based matches with quick respawn of the "hold the point" type, since those tend not to have your character's deaths count directly against your team's scores the way they do in deathmatches.) One example of 'otherwise' restricting respawn was MAG's respawn system: respawns were on a twenty-second timer independent of when your character bled out (you could press a button to "bleed out immediately" instead of waiting for a teammate to perform a revive), so that for example if your character bled out with fifteen seconds to go on the timer that was how long you would have to wait, and in Domination matches, one of the Officer-in-Charge abilities was to temporarily shorten the respawn timer by ten seconds and another to lengthen the other team's timer by ten seconds. P.S. After seeing the posts above this one, I do not believe that I will be participating in this thread further, though I don't mind clarifying any of these points in this post by PM. P.P.S. So, so beautiful, Celery's post below mine. Edited August 30, 2012 by Chortles Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
celery 8 Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) This "fear simulation" stuff would basically make everyone's avatar psychologically identical, which would be grossly unrealistic and redundant considering that players are able to assess their tactical situation and act accordingly already, with individually varying influence from experience and emotional reactions. The reason why your "suppressive fire" doesn't work in pvp is because you failed to be sincere about it (the enemy sees that you're not even trying to hit him, making it tactically sound to just shoot you), and if your human opponent gets out of cover just to get killed by you, then you have succeeded in your goal of making him a non-threat, and he might or might not learn from it. Madeon said: Anyone who says that they would pop their head out from behind cover when under accurate suppression fire is full of shit. So how would it suddenly become smart in Arma? If you were in cover and under accurate fire that would most likely hit you if you exposed yourself even a little, would the lack of a visual suppression effect make you run out of cover like a derp? DMarkwick said: Well, the intent is different. One is a deliberate activity to deter you from action, one is a deliberate activity to tempt you into action. One removes your efficiency in action, the other preserves itI think resolves it :) A) When in cover under accurate fire, you know that you'll get killed if you move. B) When in cover knowing that 12 snipers are just waiting to get a shot at you, you know that you'll get killed if you move. How does situation B preserve your efficiency or make you more likely to peek out? Because you wouldn't want to disappoint the enemy, allegedly knowing their intention? Edited August 30, 2012 by Celery Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iroquois Pliskin 0 Posted August 30, 2012 DMarkwick said: Wait what? Now you're agreeable to suppression effects? Why the switcharound? I was never against a reasonable game mechanic, let me quote myself, so everyone will see that we already have it, Iroquois Pliskin said: Left my hat here.I could agree to additional "heavy breathing", "aim shake" for every "registered" bullet that whizzes by your character, in say, a bubble of 10 metres. Could the Devs implement that? Bullets landing in your direct proximity already trigger this, but on the other hand, clearly audible bullet cracks, which are fired in your direction, do not, though both are equally "scary". Nothing else apart from the above. This is more akin to a fatigue system, where a character's heart is racing due to the gravity of the situation - an uncontrollable survival reflex of the nervous system, but no blur, no spasms, no falling down. Nothing more than that. MadDogX said: Sounds reasonable to me. Since it is already in the game, might as well expand on that. Physical fatigue is more manageable and realistic, than arbitrary emotion responses. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmarkwick 261 Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) Celery said: So how would it suddenly become smart in Arma? If you were in cover and under accurate fire that would most likely hit you if you exposed yourself even a little, would the lack of a visual suppression effect make you run out of cover like a derp? I think we established that this gameplay mechanic is not to everyone's taste. But given that it's already in, and that it can also be easily modded in, I'm good with the current situation. Quote A) When in cover under accurate fire, you know that you'll get killed if you move.B) When in cover knowing that 12 snipers are just waiting to get a shot at you, you know that you'll get killed if you move. How does situation B preserve your efficiency or make you more likely to peek out? Because you wouldn't want to disappoint the enemy, allegedly knowing their intention? I think the situation is clear enough, if you're playing a waiting game, someone has to make a move eventually. I don't really get why this is getting the attention it is, currently there is no suppression effect for situations where suppression isn't being used. ---------- Post added at 12:02 ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 ---------- Iroquois Pliskin said: This is more akin to a fatigue system, where a character's heart is racing due to the gravity of the situation - an uncontrollable survival reflex of the nervous system, but no blur, no spasms, no falling down. Nothing more than that. Iroquois Pliskin said: I could agree to additional "heavy breathing", "aim shake" for every "registered" bullet that whizzes by your character, in say, a bubble of 10 metres. Could the Devs implement that? Bullets landing in your direct proximity already trigger this, but on the other hand, clearly audible bullet cracks, which are fired in your direction, do not, though both are equally "scary". This is all I'm talking about in essence. I can take or leave visual effects, but I think there's a place for physical effects. Edited August 30, 2012 by DMarkwick Share this post Link to post Share on other sites