CQB??

[zukov 490]

at 5.17 there is a transition from rifle to glock and the right reloading animations for the pistol i hope will be finished the reloading animation of LMG (the moving parts)

fF9OvmjE4A0

[KEVINMGXP 20]

Personally I still find it odd when we draw our pistol that the main weapon is taken over the shoulder. This is not seen only from the CQB perspective because I don't think a soldier will draw a side arm after he shouldered his main weapon when it malfunctioned .. I think it should be more like this, however this might take it a step further in newer animations I do not know if this will improve the CQB in the game however it will give it most likely a more realistic feeling overall. Ive also seen that the main weapon is muffled away behind the soldiers back when he/she draws a side arm ...

7IEOtvupVnE

I know it can be don as in arma2, the animation is don when we take our binocular however when we walk the anim seems not complete ..

kind regards

Edited August 15, 2012 by KBourne

[rye1 21]

@NoRailGunner; a Quick-drop is a great idea, I hate fiddling around with the currently inventory system but it does the job anyway personally not as fussed about it. I wish there was a "fill all slots button" i.e. you can click on a magazine now and it has the arrow right for put into your inventory, left for put into the box or whatever you've opened, there should be two arrows right for filling your inventory with ALL of this certain item. Would make it tonne easier. Skip all the clicking for exactly the same thing, "I JUST WANT MAGAZINES!".

@Zukov; Looks great, he's holding it correctly (someone watched Art of the Dynamic Pistol) and in a good stance. But still a slow transition and quite iffy.

@KBourne; Well Jason Falla, come on. Ex-AUSOF. He's going to do it the right way.

The only time I have seen 'over the back' is with the German KSK (but then again some of those blokes carry 2-3 primary weapons), very rare to see and obviously has those tactical implications which end up, for Arma's purposes, being less useful and realistic as to putting it below you. It's on a sling, you drop it infront of you and off to the side; many tactical schools teach it that way and that way only. You have two hands, one drops and swings the sling and weapon outward as the other begins the first steps to drawing the pistol. Weak hand comes back up and you've completed the draw and are ready to engage.

Also agreed about binoculars and other handheld devices. I feel sorry for the animators.

[Psychomorph 1]

Personally I still find it odd when we draw our pistol that the main weapon is taken over the shoulder. This is not seen only from the CQB perspective because I don't think a soldier will draw a side arm after he shouldered his main weapon when it malfunctioned .. I think it should be more like this, however this might take it a step further in newer animations I do not know if this will improve the CQB in the game however it will give it most likely a more realistic feeling overall. Ive also seen that the main weapon is muffled away behind the soldiers back when he/she draws a side arm ...

7IEOtvupVnE

I know it can be don as in arma2, the animation is don when we take our binocular however when we walk the anim seems not complete ..

kind regards

Exactly this. Best way would be that if you have your rifle selected and you switch to the sidegun, the rifle would be let slinged on the chest and the pistol selected very fast, but additionally you could sling the rifle on the back via menu.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Psychomorph

[rye1 21]

Then again, who uses slings constantly? Not many of the armed forces. Just sayin'. Transitioning without, hold the rifle with weak hand, use strong hand for pistol.

[Psychomorph 1]

Then again, who uses slings constantly? Not many of the armed forces. Just sayin'. Transitioning without, hold the rifle with weak hand, use strong hand for pistol.

I'm not too familiar with the subject, but I believe that many western forces use the tri-point sling system, even the infantry soldiers who are not carrying a sidegun. A sling has many benefits, such as that the weapon can be "dropped" to instantly free your arms for throwing a grenade, cuffing suspects, climbing and do stuff. If you slip and fall over, you are not losing your gun because it fell down the abyss.

Looking at the ArmA3 setting, both parties seem quite advanced in tech and gear, I can't imagine such a high-tech soldier to to run around with a shotgun Vietman style. I am sure that any of the infantry soldiers in ArmA3 are meant to use a sling system. Modern day Special Forces always have their gun slinged and they are always carrying a sidegun. A sidegun asks for a sling, kind of.

Modern times have also shown how regular infantry advances more toward how Special Forces used to be (in gear and equippment), while SF advance further individually. We can see it now already, how infantry is geared up almost looking like SF, with all kinds of attachments on their weapons.

In ArmA3 we are talking about 20 years in the future, wouldn't surprise me if sideguns would become standard issue by then (due to the increasing complexity of military operations, etc) and a sling system as standard issue just seems to be the most probable development. In my opinion of course.

Also, a tri-point sling is quite nice, as it allows you to let the rifle drop on your chest, or pull it at the back without to take off the sling from the body. So in ArmA3 it could be that any immediate action that requires you to let go off your rifle (pull sidegun, take grenade), would have it at the chest, while manually you could "holster" it at the back any time.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Psychomorph

[Panda_pl 0]

Exactly this. Best way would be that if you have your rifle selected and you switch to the sidegun, the rifle would be let slinged on the chest and the pistol selected very fast, but additionally you could sling the rifle on the back via menu.

The thread just went full circle again, or was that in other thread?

The problem with drop down weapon is that once you go prone it hits the ground and fills up with dust. How would you then crawl with rifle underneath you?

The problem with moving rifle from front to back when going prone is this will make going prone slower and get you killed on so many occasions.

The game cannot give player absolute control over where his rifle is like he has IRL and the game has no way of reading your mind to know whether you want to get to your handgun faster or be able to go prone fast while holding the handgun.

On a side note many will prefer the one point sling because it allows you to swing the weapon behind you when you perform other tasks since it's basically just hanging off you. With 3 point sling moving the weapon to your back is harder and there are more straps to catch on other parts of your gear.

[Psychomorph 1]

The problem with drop down weapon is that once you go prone it hits the ground and fills up with dust. How would you then crawl with rifle underneath you?

Good point. In ArmA 3 you can also lie prone on your back. How to solve that dilemma? You may argue that the chances for you to lie prone on the back is really small, while going prone properly will be used all the time and you'd be right on this one, but nontheless the dilemma exists on both ends. If there is an animation implemented to quickly put the rifle on the back while going prone, than we can make a compromise and have it done in a way that does not slow down the going prone process (but still looks right). That way you'd not need to take care of where the rifle is slinged, as it would be sorted automatically without to handicap the player.

[rye1 21]

Psychomorph and Panda good points. Thinking ahead then yes, those complex operations will probably allow for extra standard gear useage but I wouldn't say constantly and those tactical considerations you've thought of are a realistic problem. Nice points for realism.

I've numbed down my reply because it was too long. Are slings used? Yes. Points heard, more points could be added i.e. Rappel, CT, CP teams or if you are breacher, driver, etc, who constantly use slings. Realistically used? Yes. One element of 'tactical Arma' complete. Immersion lost = 0%. :p

Aesthetically, for the animations, it is applicable. That then comes down to if they are willing, benefit vs cost (visual pro vs workload and $) and how it will affect gameplay (+ or -). If they are willing then it's more headaches to find out what animations to use, what animations go with what weaponry (MG vs AR vs .50 cal). Is it going to be quality or just one plain animation? Will it be linked in with the gear system? It's all a fuss for little. The best they can do is a more realistic animation and that's it.

The 'dust' is a realistic problem in no way related to Arma; even if they add jam's it will not be that complex. The realistic solution is a muzzle cap. All problems, solved, by carrying some homemade, easy to use, plenty to carry, small caps for your muzzle. You can fire through them with no POA/POI change. Dust and dirt problem solved. So, is this applicable to Arma? No.

With the first step to drawing, as the sling is pushed to your side, what is stopping you from pushing it all the way behind you or tucking it behind your thigh? Slinging it 'around you' is better than 'over the back' for me anyway.

The first position demonstrated would be the logical one for transitioning to a secondary. Is that applicable to Arma? I'd say yes.

Now in relation to where you need it for an immediate threat situation, you can drop it infront of you. Once you then need to go prone it is put behind your back. The second position he shows us is of less use in Arma and is more administrative, in CQB you would be banging that muzzle against every obstacle with that technique. So is that technique applicable to Arma? No. You'd lose immersion without collisions and even with all this transitioning you may end up dead if the animation wasn't that fast because it has to adapt to people's use for it. For instance I'd use it against immediate threats, then it would have to be bloody fast. If I use it because I'm out of ammunition and in cover, I wouldn't really care about it being THAT fast because I'm not in any immediate danger. If you weigh these up then the developers would probably have to go with the realistically fastest animation and test it.

4:30 is demonstrating throwing it over the shoulder. At that stage you can engage whilst holding the rifle, if it is an immediate threat that should be your first and final option. There are lots of sling manipulation techniques. Could this be applicable for Arma? Probably.

Either way if they improve that animation, visually it would be better and to me I could see it being faster than the current one seen in the videos.

Those videos are some good visual applications for animators to look and think, think at least, where could we do better? Is current standards a quality we want and is it worth it to dip into something better?

I say if I saw a video of the 'Infantry' or 'CQB' promotion of A3 with some really good quality animations, with literally little to be worried about, it would be a seller. The SMK animation videos really sold me too, some of the animations looked like reality, a real human right there, crouched and engaging. Animations are so important, no more bending your back 90 degrees to shoot into the air, more fine tweaking and you'll create a huge hit.

Oh yeah and P.S. Whoever made the pistol animation, the grip and stance. To me it is literally perfect. +1. Sold. I think the first thing I'll do is shoot the pistol in A3.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Rye

[Psychomorph 1]

Psychomorph and Panda good points. Thinking ahead then yes, those complex operations will probably allow for extra standard gear useage but I wouldn't say constantly and those tactical considerations you've thought of are a realistic problem. Nice points for realism.

I've numbed down my reply because it was too long. Are slings used? Yes. Points heard, more points could be added i.e. Rappel, CT, CP teams or if you are breacher, driver, etc, who constantly use slings. Realistically used? Yes. One element of 'tactical Arma' complete. Immersion lost = 0%. :p

Aesthetically, for the animations, it is applicable. That then comes down to if they are willing, benefit vs cost (visual pro vs workload and $) and how it will affect gameplay (+ or -). If they are willing then it's more headaches to find out what animations to use, what animations go with what weaponry (MG vs AR vs .50 cal). Is it going to be quality or just one plain animation? Will it be linked in with the gear system? It's all a fuss for little. The best they can do is a more realistic animation and that's it.

The 'dust' is a realistic problem in no way related to Arma; even if they add jam's it will not be that complex. The realistic solution is a muzzle cap. All problems, solved, by carrying some homemade, easy to use, plenty to carry, small caps for your muzzle. You can fire through them with no POA/POI change. Dust and dirt problem solved. So, is this applicable to Arma? No.

With the first step to drawing, as the sling is pushed to your side, what is stopping you from pushing it all the way behind you or tucking it behind your thigh? Slinging it 'around you' is better than 'over the back' for me anyway.

The first position demonstrated would be the logical one for transitioning to a secondary. Is that applicable to Arma? I'd say yes.

Now in relation to where you need it for an immediate threat situation, you can drop it infront of you. Once you then need to go prone it is put behind your back. The second position he shows us is of less use in Arma and is more administrative, in CQB you would be banging that muzzle against every obstacle with that technique. So is that technique applicable to Arma? No. You'd lose immersion without collisions and even with all this transitioning you may end up dead if the animation wasn't that fast because it has to adapt to people's use for it. For instance I'd use it against immediate threats, then it would have to be bloody fast. If I use it because I'm out of ammunition and in cover, I wouldn't really care about it being THAT fast because I'm not in any immediate danger. If you weigh these up then the developers would probably have to go with the realistically fastest animation and test it.

4:30 is demonstrating throwing it over the shoulder. At that stage you can engage whilst holding the rifle, if it is an immediate threat that should be your first and final option. There are lots of sling manipulation techniques. Could this be applicable for Arma? Probably.

Either way if they improve that animation, visually it would be better and to me I could see it being faster than the current one seen in the videos.

Those videos are some good visual applications for animators to look and think, think at least, where could we do better? Is current standards a quality we want and is it worth it to dip into something better?

I say if I saw a video of the 'Infantry' or 'CQB' promotion of A3 with some really good quality animations, with literally little to be worried about, it would be a seller. The SMK animation videos really sold me too, some of the animations looked like reality, a real human right there, crouched and engaging. Animations are so important, no more bending your back 90 degrees to shoot into the air, more fine tweaking and you'll create a huge hit.

Oh yeah and P.S. Whoever made the pistol animation, the grip and stance. To me it is literally perfect. +1. Sold. I think the first thing I'll do is shoot the pistol in A3.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/22064653.jpg

Good videos and information on slings.

I think we should not overcomplicate the subject. We are likely not going to see visible slings in ArmA3, not hanging down the rifle, nor around the characters body. That gives the developers the freedom to have the rifle put on the back, or left hanging across the chest without to fiddle around with proper sling physics, based on what fits the situation. It's just the most known and accepted way to grab the sidegun and have the gun slinged across the chest, because in real life most who carry sideguns have their primaries slinged around the body to do exactly this (SF, SWAT, etc). Additionally you could manually sling the rifle on the back without to select another piece of equipment. Which sling system is used is rather irrelevant, because as I said, you won't see the actual sling. It all comes down to a set of animations and a slinging method that fits the situation/action.

One thing is important for me though, selecting the pistol and deselecting the primamry should NOT have them as two separate sets of animation, but ONE. You lower the rifle, and in the process release the right hand and go for the sidegun, while pulling out the sidegun, you let the rifle across the chest with the left hand and begin to move it to grab the pistol. While having the pistol held with two hands you keep pushing the pistol away from the body untill it is aimed (or you point shoot before reaching the aimed state). This is the sole reason for slinging rifles across the chest when pulling sideguns, to speed up the process, so it's not about visual realism, but definitely about realistic efficiency.

As for going prone. If the devs can implement additional animations to have the character pulling the rifle to the back while going prone, than I'd appreciate that, but if not, than it wouldn't be a big deal for me honestly.

It would be cool to have a set of interchanging aminations though. So if you select the pistol when standing, the rifle goes to chest. If you go prone, pistol is kept selected, but rifle is pulled to the back. If you change to the lying prone on the back posture, the rifle is put to the chest. Goes to the back again if you go to normal prone position. If you stand up still having the pistol, the rifle remains at the back, and is selected from the back when you holser the pistol. If you lay prone with a rifle and select the pistol, the rifle is put on the back at the first place.

But this might be too much work, so I'd settle with simpler solutions.

Pistols in ArmA2 are definitely better than generic, but I believe they can be implemented even better. ;)

Edited August 19, 2012 by Psychomorph

[rye1 21]

Agreed&Agreed. One smooth animation for all is ++. I think we talked about this. :D

The less steps to an animation, the more efficient for virtual combat in A3.

Speaking of anims, anyone seen the grenade throwing one yet? I saw one where the player through a chemlight and it went DIRECTLY forward which made me think -- hey maybe we can actually throw it in openings now like windows etc without missing. :D But then again I haven't seen grenades thrown post-E3.

[Ekko 1]

Agreed&Agreed. One smooth animation for all is ++. I think we talked about this. :D

The less steps to an animation, the more efficient for virtual combat in A3.

Speaking of anims, anyone seen the grenade throwing one yet? I saw one where the player through a chemlight and it went DIRECTLY forward which made me think -- hey maybe we can actually throw it in openings now like windows etc without missing. :D But then again I haven't seen grenades thrown post-E3.

I did in fact see some footage of someone throwing a grenade at Gamescom(Not throwing AT Gamescom:cool:) and guess what, its still the same as ever. Maybe in the future soldiers will be able to use their feet while throwing something.

[4 IN 1 0]

Even in a DI system and delay blow back system dust in muzzle won't cause much of a problem unless there is 6inch of dust and mud in it, even harder for an AK or piston system to go, so I just don't really understand all these 'dust in gun' arguments, and like I said a long time ago there are ways to go prone where it can keep the rest of the gun up away from ground and infront of you so that you can crawl like you always did, so again, why all these arguments?

[chortles 263]

The worst part about the dust arguments is that it appears that just like in vanilla ARMA 2 jamming will not be simulated at all, making said arguments moot... you know, just like the melee arguments? :rolleyes:

Ekko, there were different heights at which the "throw" circle appeared; the grenade one was quite high, while the chemlight one was quite low.

[rye1 21]

Melee isn't just because of jams, as stated previously. And 4 IN 1 instead of indirectly passive aggressively blowing off steam with your point why don't you ask the person directly who said it. Panda.

If the grenade form is in a curvature again then it'll be very hard to get it in windows unless it had an 'aiming point' instead of a circle, AA3 has the finger as an aiming point, VBS2 has a line.

[chortles 263]

My point was that it doesn't actually matter what's realistic, it matters what actually ends up in ARMA 3 / is chosen to be possible to be simulated (without modding) in RV4; I'm of the belief that ARMA 3 won't have melee by default nor will it have jamming.

But yes, as of right now it's still using the circle; I'm guessing that the build was intended to show off how much more fluid/smooth/responsive the shooting and moving with assault rifles/SMGs/pistols is supposed to be (I'd say transitioning if it didn't bring the character to a halt), not so much "oh hey we changed grenade throwing" hence why it supposedly didn't look different from ARMA 2.

While I am disappointed that weapon transitioning (and apparently a bunch of other actions) still bring the character to a halt, I remember Smookie's explanation for why on-the-move only "will be considered", and I am absolutely pleased with the pistol promise being kept! Thank you once again Smookie, you've set the standard against which all future ARMA pistol builds are to be measured! (Hint hint, anyone who was about to complain that the Gamescom ARMA 3 pistol was "too smooth and responsive"... :mad: )

[rye1 21]

No it won't have them. I don't think. I played around with DayZ and the hatchet(s) today and I must admit it was pretty fun. I want to try that in a battle against insurgents. The future looks more applicable for it, for modders or those interested though. :party:

Well to a point it does and it doesn't. ARMA steps itself above the grade by providing more realism than other games (compare to COD, BF3, other shooters) and actually being able to play with some amount of real-life elements. Say for instance with the ACE 2 mod and wind, unlike any other game for civilians that isn't dedicated to a specific (say hunting game with windage, pfft so what!). In that said sentence, it still matters what is in ARMA 3 but if BIS want to maintain those elements, realism and believability or authenticity which attract people and keep the game as a whole a step above others in my opinion then it has to take into account what is can offer and deliver in a quality fashion. I think personally BIS are more focused on authenticity rather than 'realism' (as realistic elements can be the top limit of the spectrum, most times over the top), and they are more focused on what would, could work in ARMA, what could improve and what could expand the game; at the same time if they keep parallel to realism then they concrete that authentic foundation, even with a 'future setting' you can make it believable and well ironed out which will be like a magnet for gamers. For example as we've seen with the animations: Believable - visual pro, gameplay pro, realistic and gives you that feel of quality.

So, the circles the same old? Hold it down and it'll expand then you throw. It'll go in a curve, very inaccurate and unpredictable. Rather a disappointment but I've lived without grenades this far... The last time I used one I killed three team mates.

[accapella 1]

Simple melee weapons would be fun even if they weren't very effective against firearms. Things like knives, your weapons stock or maybe even field spades/batons or even fisticuffs for extra gimmickyness.

Soldiers are trained in some melee fighting skills so why not include, even just a very basic framework, for them, just for the sake of completeness of the simulation and the possible fun to be had.

These would also enhance police like scenarios where you have to deal with hostile but unarmed civilians.

I'm sure some people will say that the color of the third pixel to the right on the authentic US army emblems or the exact authentic lenght of the radio antenna on a vehicle is more important than features such as this, but this is just my opinion.

[4 IN 1 0]

I happens to have Travis Haley Adaptive Kalash with me, and that is a very old school Russian way to use the old style 2 point sling, in which there is many problem that comes with it. I am not going to talk deeply into it but lets just say that this is just not a very efficient way to transition

Now back on topic, besides animation, ARMA got most of its chunkyness from weapon collision detection with surrounding buildings Unless BI fix that we will still have lots of problem during indoor combat.

Edited August 21, 2012 by 4 IN 1

[chortles 263]

The entire seventeenth page of the "Flagship?" thread is CQB relevant.

[celery 8]

The entire seventeenth page of the "Flagship?" thread is CQB relevant.

Oh? I thought we were still on page 5.

[chortles 263]

Well, maybe not Rye's High Threat-Limited Entry video if ARMA 3's doors aren't wide enough for two characters to simultaneously enter or exit. :p

[pathetic_berserker 4]

Well, maybe not Rye's High Threat-Limited Entry video if ARMA 3's doors aren't wide enough for two characters to simultaneously enter or exit. :p

Doesn't have to be simultaneously in such an exacting fashion if the guy behind can stay close and go over a shoulder of the lead.

---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:57 ----------

Soldiers are trained in some melee fighting skills so why not include, even just a very basic framework, for them, just for the sake of completeness of the simulation and the possible fun to be had.

These would also enhance police like scenarios where you have to deal with hostile but unarmed civilians.

I agree melee stuff can be fun, but in a sim I can't help but feel it may muddy the waters a bit (funny how it still feels OK in DayZ). Basically because its so hard to actualy simulate with any sense of fidelity. I know I'd be a bit frustrated by it becuase my own melee training and experience is now measured in terms of decades, yet I understand that games as a medium have their limitations....grrr... in the unlikely event it was included its a function that I think needs to have an on/off setting. Because sometimes it would be pointless and sometimes just for fun.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Pathetic_Berserker

[chortles 263]

I wonder if

is possible in ARMA 3...? (Around 1:10 in you've also got indoors/door entry training, albeit NOT using low ready.)

[Madeon 6]

I wonder if

is possible in ARMA 3...? (Around 1:10 in you've also got indoors/door entry training, albeit NOT using low ready.)

I don't think it will be possible, I think it will be similar to the prone to stand transition where one hand is used to push the upper body off the ground.