Syria - What should we do if anything?

[PELHAM 10]

FSA shouldn't use civilian houses and civilian themselves as live shields. So there wouldn't be so many casualties. Army doesn't shell the house with its inhabitants just for lulz. And now Syrian government is recognized by UN as the only legitimate authority and representative of Syria. So why anybody can't trade with it? Bahrain used some heavy armor to knock off its own protestors but nobody says it can't be supplied with weapons and ammo anymore because of this fact.

Apples and oranges spooky, different situation, Bahrain isn't engaged in the mass killing of it's own people and Syria is as confirmed by several UN reports. 2nd time someone brought this up but glad you now get the name of the country correct (memory OK? see your doctor just in case), here we go again with exactly the same response.

The FSA is comprised mainly of Army defectors that went home to their families. They are in those neighbourhoods because that is where they live, that is where their families are and the Syrian government has a long history of arresting and killing the family members of those it considers it's enemies. Asking the FSA to abandon their homes and family members is rather silly. I explained this once before - did you forget? There is much evidence to show that the syrian government is targetting civilians and 3 major UN reports have stated this and the human rights organisations agree.

So the issue of supplying arms to a regime that kills it's own people is a moral one, if Putin had any morals we would see that supply cut off. All the Russian Government care about is money and their Naval Base at Tartus, the Syrian armed forces are huge and they spend billions on Russian equipment every year. There is also the question of unpaid billions in debt from the building of the huge security aparatus which wouldn't be repaid if Assad fell.

Edited September 4, 2012 by PELHAM

[batto 17]

So the issue of supplying arms to a regime that kills it's own people is a moral one, if Putin had any morals we would see that supply cut off. All the Russian Government care about is money and their Naval Base at Tartus, the Syrian armed forces are huge and they spend billions on Russian equipment every year. There is also the question of unpaid billions in debt from the building of the huge security aparatus which wouldn't be repaid if Assad fell.

Morals... Seriously?! I'm so glad that our governments care so much about poor people overseas. Except they don't. They fight for strategic positions (money, power, ...) as Russia do and that's ALL they care about. You're either naive or paid for spamming forums with this non-sense that only 10yro children would believe. We vote our politicans to make us happy, not to make ppl overseas happy.

To some degree ofc. If some dictator killed people daily without any cause just to enjoy his powers I'd respect the decision to do something. But that's not the situation in Syria.

Edited September 4, 2012 by batto

[PELHAM 10]

Free Pussy Riot lol......

Errr I'm not paid and rarely post anything new, I only ever respond to things I disagree with, yet every day there are new posts by the same half dozen simply repeating what they have watched on RT or 'found on the internet' which state opinions that are obviously full of holes. Keep your political views to yourself if you don't want them challeged. I do realise dissent is not universally tollerated, you can be sent to prison for years simply for singing an inappropriate song in a church lol.

Perhaps that is why people from certain nations are so unused to debating in a logical manner. All that was asked initially of Assad was political reform and free and fair elections. I'm sure the fighting could be stopped in a month if he would allow the UN in to oversee such a process. Problem is it carries the risk of losing power so he doesn't seem interested. So he is killing people to stay in power, that was how the whole war started in the 1st place. People were shot in the streets simply for asking for political reform.

Also why do certain people have to resort to underhanded things like duplicate accounts, multiple users using same account etc. if they are arguing from a position of strength? It's something I have never done and will not do becuase I respect the rules here and have no need to break them.

Edited September 4, 2012 by PELHAM

[batto 17]

Free Pussy Riot lol......

Errr I'm not paid and rarely post anything new, I only ever respond to things I disagree with, yet every day there are new posts by the same half dozen simply repeating what they have watched on RT or 'found on the internet' which state opinions that are obviously full of holes. Keep your political views to yourself if you don't want them challeged. I do realise dissent is not universally tollerated, you can be sent to prison for years simply for singing an inappropriate song in a church lol.

No doubt that Russia is filled with corruption and the Pussy Riot trial is sad but it (your hate against Russia) can't justify your claims. It's called strawman argument.

[PELHAM 10]

I have justified every claim I have ever made on this subject with references to UN reports etc, the only one to do so. Here is something new for you (rarity by me but hey, responding to the usual gets boring):

More than 100,000 flee Syria in August, highest monthly total so far - UNHCR

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/04/world/meast/syria-civil-war/index.html

1% of the Syrian population have left their country. Why is it hundreds of thousands of people choose to leave instead of moving to a government area? Why would so many not seek the protection of their own government? It's a similar story, after the Houla Massacre, despite being a few hundred meters from a government hospital and in a government controlled zone, none of the survivors sheltered there, they all travelled more than 3kms to FSA territory. Yet our Russian friends still try to convince us that Assad has popular support and that he is protecting people from terrorists? Why don't they seek his protection then?

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?135597-Syria-What-should-we-do-if-anything&p=2216067&viewfull=1#post2216067

Link to discussion on the Houla Massacre, UN report showing Syrian Govt involvement and statements and movements of victims afterwards.

Edited September 4, 2012 by PELHAM

[Amra 10]

Nothing weak about it, how do you think the weapons are transported to the country? Poltergeists?

So by civil airplanes? Once again, let's say Russia supply Asad. Where are your proofs it is done by civil airplanes beside it is "well known"? If not, do you agree that targeting civil objects is an act of terrorism?

[PELHAM 10]

So by civil airplanes? Once again, let's say Russia supply Asad. Where are your proofs it is done by civil airplanes beside it is "well known"? If not, do you agree that targeting civil objects is an act of terrorism?

Well they will not be targetting Aeroflot passenger aircraft because they have suspended all flights to Syria along with all other airlines. So why is Russia upset about this? What other flights does it have?

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CEAQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.themoscowtimes.com%2Fmobile%2Farticle%2F463218.html&ei=P2FGUNbBD8O30QXvjoDABQ&usg=AFQjCNGEYRkO2DwbvdnbUvo5Dme3377QzA

Transporting Arms by air is usually done in 2 ways - military airlift or under contract with civilian cargo aircraft. Targetting either of those is not against the rules of war and would not be an act of terrorism under the context of a civil war. The situation in Syria has been defined as a civil war by the UN. Syria has it's own cargo aircraft that could be used to transport weapons from a variety of sources.

The Mi-35 helicopters that Russia sent earlier this year were transported in a civilian ship - the MV Alaed and was confirmed by Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, the shipment was only stopped when the UK insurer cancelled the policy:

Air transport works the same way.

The proof that the flights are occuring come from Russia's own postulations:

‘EU has no right to inspect Syria-bound Russian transport’

http://rt.com/politics/eu-russia-syria-military-transport-693/

They get very upset at the prospect of any ships or aircraft being inspected - no one else has a problem? Wonder why that could be hmmm? If they allowed inspections it would be the perfect answer to their critics - we are not shipping weapons, we have nothing to hide?

To be fair it's not just Russia - Iran have been caught in the act:

Iran now using commercial airlines ‘exclusively’ for arms shipments to Syria

http://www.worldnewstribune.com/2012/06/01/iran-now-using-commercial-airlines-exclusively-for-arms-shipments-to-syria/

"Arms were found onboard in nineteen crates declared as 'auto spare parts,'" the Turkish authorities said, according to the report. "They comprised 60 Kalashnikov rifles, 14 BKC (Bixi) machine guns, 7,920 rounds of Kalashnikov ammunition, 560 60 mm mortars and 1,288 120 mm mortars."

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-12/world/un.syria.iran.weapons_1_iranian-weapons-conventional-arms-report?_s=PM:WORLD

A Turkish inspection of one of the Yas Air flights bound for Syria – which listed “auto spare parts†on its cargo manifest – found weapons including Kalashnikov AK-47 assault rifles, machine guns, nearly 8,000 rounds of ammunition, and an assortment of mortar shells.

http://iranprimer.usip.org/blog/2012/mar/27/us-targets-iran-arms-shipments

Edited September 4, 2012 by PELHAM

[maturin 12]

Apples and oranges spooky

You mean watermelons and grapes?

[Amra 10]

They get very upset at the prospect of any ships or aircraft being inspected - no one else has a problem? Wonder why that could be hmmm? If they allowed inspections it would be the perfect answer to their critics - we are not shipping weapons, we have nothing to hide?

As I thought - nothing except wild guesses. And because of that wild guesses you consider it's okay to shoot down civil airplanes. I have finally found the proper place for you in my picture of the world.

We have a lot of aircompanies beside Aeroflot. Hopefully they'll stop their flights to Syria as well.

[spooky lynx 73]

Apples and oranges spooky, different situation, Bahrain isn't engaged in the mass killing of it's own people and Syria is as confirmed by several UN reports. 2nd time someone brought this up but glad you now get the name of the country correct (memory OK? see your doctor just in case), here we go again with exactly the same response.

Why are you so sure about Bahrain? Because there weren't mass hysteria in media? It woudn't happen anyways even if Bahraini dictator would eat the children of the protestors.

The FSA is comprised mainly of Army defectors that went home to their families. They are in those neighbourhoods because that is where they live, that is where their families are and the Syrian government has a long history of arresting and killing the family members of those it considers it's enemies. Asking the FSA to abandon their homes and family members is rather silly. I explained this once before - did you forget? There is much evidence to show that the syrian government is targetting civilians and 3 major UN reports have stated this and the human rights organisations agree.

At first I don't trust UN anymore after it proved its lack of neutrality. I'd believe those people who live there and with whom I interact personally but not UN which kept silence when Iraq was invaded and when Yugoslavia was bombed in 1999, not mentioning massive casualties of civilians in Serbia and destruction of civil infrastructure. It was okay because they were wrong civilians. At second, those defectors had the choice - to keep their families in danger because of fighting near them or to go somewhere else. They chose the first. So why army should keep calm while being shot from civilian houses? Soldiers are people too (if you didn't know) and they have the families too. And they don't want to die.

So the issue of supplying arms to a regime that kills it's own people is a moral one, if Putin had any morals we would see that supply cut off. All the Russian Government care about is money and their Naval Base at Tartus, the Syrian armed forces are huge and they spend billions on Russian equipment every year. There is also the question of unpaid billions in debt from the building of the huge security aparatus which wouldn't be repaid if Assad fell.

There were casualties among the protesters when their camp was stormed with tanks and APCs in Bahrain. We don't know exact number (and will never know I think), so I can say Bahraini regime kills its own people too. Morals you say? Had anyone morals when Yugoslavian civil factories and houses were bombed during 1999 campaign?

[Madeon 6]

There is no justification for this shocking war crime -

uIOrOA7YjM4

[PELHAM 10]

There is no justification for this shocking war crime

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo ROFL

[Tonci87 163]

Why are you so sure about Bahrain? Because there weren't mass hysteria in media? It woudn't happen anyways even if Bahraini dictator would eat the children of the protestors.

At first I don't trust UN anymore after it proved its lack of neutrality. I'd believe those people who live there and with whom I interact personally but not UN which kept silence when Iraq was invaded and when Yugoslavia was bombed in 1999, not mentioning massive casualties of civilians in Serbia and destruction of civil infrastructure. It was okay because they were wrong civilians. At second, those defectors had the choice - to keep their families in danger because of fighting near them or to go somewhere else. They chose the first. So why army should keep calm while being shot from civilian houses? Soldiers are people too (if you didn't know) and they have the families too. And they don't want to die.

There were casualties among the protesters when their camp was stormed with tanks and APCs in Bahrain. We don't know exact number (and will never know I think), so I can say Bahraini regime kills its own people too. Morals you say? Had anyone morals when Yugoslavian civil factories and houses were bombed during 1999 campaign?

The UN proved its neutrality when they let bosnian serbs slaughter half the population of the UN Protected Zone Srebrenica. How more neutral can you get

/sarcasm off

The UN is worthless.

[Madeon 6]

Some really good footage here, the incoming rounds smacking into the walls are testament to how dangerous these urban brawls are, I'm surprised none of the troops are concerned about ricocheting bullets.

Gei_D9dNiqk&feature=plcp

[Tox_Laximus 1]

There is no justification for this shocking war crime -

uIOrOA7YjM4

I see people throwing stuff into a pile, I don't see it being destroyed, for all we know they could of loaded it all back on the trucks when the camera switched off.

[PELHAM 10]

As I thought - nothing except wild guesses. And because of that wild guesses you consider it's okay to shoot down civil airplanes. I have finally found the proper place for you in my picture of the world.

We have a lot of aircompanies beside Aeroflot. Hopefully they'll stop their flights to Syria as well.

What possible reason could Russian aircraft have to be flying in and out of Aleppo and Damascus on a daily basis? The thriving tourist industry? It's September, maybe there is lots of fruit and cotton to export? There are some russian businesses still operating but employee number only a few hundred so that doesn't explain it either. Humanitarian aid? Not likely, the government isn't offering any and refuses to allow most organisations to send anything which is why 1% of the population have left the country.

Sorry but it's a civil war, there is evidence that Iran, Syria and circumstantially Russia is flying in weapons in civilian cargo and passenger aircraft, under the rules of war shooting them down is perfectly legal under international law provided a warning is given. You just had that warning.

If this is not the case I'm open to explanations for all this activity, as I don't speak Russian perhaps you could ask someone what all the urgent air freight is exactly?

Further to the Iranian weapons flights intercepted by Turkey (post #457) it looks like Iran has changed it's air route:

U.S. senators concerned Iran aiding Syria via Iraq

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Sep-05/186808-us-senators-concerned-iran-aiding-syria-via-iraq.ashx#axzz25ahKW1BZ

[spooky lynx 73]

The UN proved its neutrality when they let bosnian serbs slaughter half the population of the UN Protected Zone Srebrenica. How more neutral can you get

/sarcasm off

The UN is worthless.

It's better not to put anyone's nose in civil war. Let its participants do all the things alone.

[PELHAM 10]

It's better not to put anyone's nose in civil war. Let its participants do all the things alone.

Why does Russia keep putin it's nose in then? lol Russia was involved in arms smuggling in the Yugoslav war despite voting and signing for an arms embargo at the UN:

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/19733/46/

Russia was the main supplier along with Romania and Bulgaria.........Keep hearing this tired argument and yet the arms flights continue daily.

"Such secret and illegal trade allowed some individuals to become immensely wealthy," said Zdenko Cepic, a historian at the Institute for Contemporary History in Ljubljana and an expert in the disintegration of Yugoslavia.

Those logistic operations were conducted by military and civilian secret services in all three countries, according to the documents. In addition, Italian, Albanian and Russian mafia participated in some actions.

[spooky lynx 73]

Why does Russia keep putin it's nose in then? lol Russia was involved in arms smuggling in the Yugoslav war despite voting and signing for an arms embargo at the UN:

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/19733/46/

Russia was the main supplier along with Romania and Bulgaria.........Keep hearing this tired argument and yet the arms flights continue daily.

If somebody starts doing it, why should we stay out and not make own profit? We weren't the first who recognized newly formed countries and supported them while they were parts of Yugoslavia formally. If somebody starts giving money and weapons to Syrian opposition - why should we stay out and help friendly regime? It's politics, either nobody does it or everybody do. Unfortunately the second variant happens mostly.

[PELHAM 10]

If somebody starts doing it, why should we stay out and not make own profit?

ROFL your reasoning has no factual basis and does not fit the timeline of events. Supplying arms to one side in a civil war simply for profit is morally wrong but I guess some peope have different standards when it comes to money. Russia was supplying weapons 1st in both cases, for money, the Arab League do not expect payment for the weapons they supply to the FSA to counter the Russian/Iranian support for Assad. I suggest a name change to 'Squeaky Lynx'. It all ends up the same way unfortunately, spot the difference, Homs and Sarajevo:

Edited September 5, 2012 by PELHAM

[maturin 12]

It's better not to put anyone's nose in civil war. Let its participants do all the things alone.

Unless it's a civil war in a post-Soviet country, or a civil war with a socialist faction?

[ProfTournesol 956]

Unless it's a civil war in a post-Soviet country, or a civil war with a socialist faction?

Indeed, only Russia is allowed to :rolleyes:

[hellfire257 3]

A no-fly zone would be nice. But who is going to enforce that, especially with the threat of a nice IADS to cope with.

[spooky lynx 73]

Unless it's a civil war in a post-Soviet country, or a civil war with a socialist faction?

In a post-Soviet countries we were often one side of the conflict unfortunately (only in Georgia we were not involved in clashes between Shevardnadze and Gamsakhurdia).

[eble 3]

Rebel forces killing and forcing Syrian christians to leave homes in Homs, these are foriegn rebels/terrorists Saudi/Iraq and elsewhere whatever you decide.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9749000/9749608.stm

Also taken from an RT.com interview with Mr Putin:

Using Al-Qaeda to fight in Syria perilous, one may as well give guns to Gitmo inmates

RT: Understood. Mr. President, another question I'd like to ask you – a number of Western and Arab nations have been covertly … with supporting the FSA, the Free Syrian Army – indeed, some of them are doing it openly now. Of course the catch here is that the FSA is suspected of hiring known Al-Qaeda fighters amongst their ranks. So the twist in this tale is that a lot of those countries are actually sponsoring terrorism, if you like, in Syria, countries that have suffered from terrible terrorism themselves. Is that a fair assessment?

Putin: You know, when someone aspires to attain an end they see as optimal, any means will do. As a rule, they will try and do that by hook or by crook – and hardly ever think of the consequences. That was the case during the war in Afghanistan, when the Soviet Union invaded in 1979. At that time, our present partners supported a rebel movement there and basically gave rise to Al Qaeda, which later backfired on the United States itself.

Today some want to use militants from Al Qaeda or some other organizations with equally radical views to accomplish their goals in Syria. This policy is dangerous and very short-sighted. In that case, one should unlock Guantanamo, arm all of its inmates and bring them to Syria to do the fighting – it's practically the same kind of people. But what we should bear in mind is that one day these people will get back at their former captors. On the other hand, these same people should bear in mind that they will eventually end up in a new prison, very much like the one off the Cuban shore.

I would like to emphasize that this policy is very short-sighted and is fraught with dire consequences.

link here

http://rt.com/news/vladimir-putin-exclusive-interview-481/

Say what you weill, he actually mentions the madness of enlisting Al Qaeda in the Syrian conflict, I'd like to see a Western leader stand up and say 100% our assistance is not going to these guys.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Eble