Blackhawk down

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Grey Fox @ June 14 2002,22:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wait how bad was the airborne view of the crash site. Could a MH-60 or AH-6 proveded cover or supressing fire by taking out the back of the crowd(although that is a total violation of the rules of engagement).I know I would totally ignore the rules and shoot anything that remotely looked like a gun.<span id='postcolor'>

I would totally bend the ROE in that situation. I guarantee you that there were no Somalis heading for that crash site that didnt intend to fight or die in the process. Therefor, i consider them viable targets.

[Grey Fox 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Shoot 'em all and let God(or Allah to be PC) sort them out!<span id='postcolor'>

Works for me.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hasharajima @ June 14 2002,21:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Somalis the stupid retarded pple, those black skinny barbarians pisses me off. Especially the way they treat dead soldier. That woman in the movie should be shot more.

Send AC 130 and clean the black rioters. Send Appache and get a taste of REAL LEAD. Set of Dirty Bombs to irradiate them so GENERATIONS AND GENERATIONS will die or cancer or shit until those blackies evolutionized into more normal pple.

Send in Ambrams to flatten the city and execute Somalis By putting their head in the tail rotor of the helis or gagging their mouth or dick to the minigun and fire it.

FUCK I HATE THOSE BARBARIANS!! FUCK THEM!!!<span id='postcolor'>

Hasharajima,

you sound like a nine year old that knows way too much inappropriate content for his age. Try living long enough to gain a few more perspecitves on life than "THE WORLD IS MINE, FUCKERS!!!", and then try to understand why Somali people were so pissed at Americans for being there.

In the mean time, you might consider going and getting hit by a car for what you just said. If they stuck you in that war, youd be dead before you left base camp.

[Grey Fox 0]

Its amazing somehow no matter what Muslims and Americans(made of many different religions) just can't get along. Heres my viewpoint of how Somalia happend:

300,000 Somalis starve to death from warlords fighting and hoarding food.

U.N. sends in Red Cross and other charities to feed the population.

U.N. provides security with peacekeepers.

Food is till Hyjacked. Then hoarded by theiving clan.

U.S. sends in Task Force Ranger for addtional security, and to fight the most powerful clans. This was the Habd Gadr(I think and if it is SP is very likely)

Raids on warlords start happending and U.S. constantly shows military presence through the use of choppers and ground convoys.

Helicopters become a phobia for Somalis

Raid for Mohmmad Farrah Aidid happens.

Black Hawks are shot down.

Gunfight ensues leaving about 19 K.I.A. for the U.S. with +60 wounded. Somalis have a estimated 5,000 casualties.

U.S. withdraws from Somalia.

U.N. cannot cope without U.S. military support

U.N. withdraws.

All charities withdraw.

Starvation and poverty return to Somalia.

Big holiday for Somalia is celebrated every Oct.'

We discuss this in this thread

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MDRZulu @ June 15 2002,06:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><snip>

And yeah maybe and AC-130 would have prevented the whole thing from happening because the blackhawks were put in place of a denied ac-130 air support request, so maybe if the blackhawks had left and an ac-130 provided air support it would have been a flawless mission except for Todd Blackburn who somehow missed the rope.<span id='postcolor'>

Quoting from the authors afterword:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Trimming the AC-130 gunship from the initial force request, in light of growing congressional pressure to bring the troops home from Somali, seems particularly so.  Garrison himself felt the gunship was not only unnecessary, but likely to be a less effective firing platform over a densely populated urban neighborhood than the AH-6 Little Birds.  If both the Little Birds and the gunship had been in the air, one or the other would have been severely restricted.  The small helicopters, flying below the gunship, would have had to clear out to avoid crossing the gunship's fire.  As it was, the Little Birds provided extremely effective air support throughout the battle.  To a man, the soldiers pinned down around the first crash site credit brave and skillful Little Birds' pilots with keeping the Somali crowds at bay.  The Somali fighters we interviewed in Mogadishu  agreed.  They believe the helicopters were the only thing that prevented a total rout of the pinned-down force.  Soldiers trapped around the wrecked chopper understandably found themselves longing for the devastating firepower of the AC-130, which could have carved out a corridor of fire for their escape.  But command concerns about limiting collateral damage were legitimate.  The corridor of fire envisioned by the men on the ground would have pulverized  a wide swath of Mogadishu, likely killing many more noncombatants than Aidid's fighters.  Support for the gunship was lukewarm on up the ranks, all the way to General Colin Powell, who in his final weeks as chairman of  of the Joint Chiefs of Staff acquiesced without complaint to the decision.  Interviewed for this book, Powell said that while he formally endorsed the entire force request, even in retrosect he could not fault Aspin's decision to trim the gunship.<span id='postcolor'>

It's easy to play armchair General after the fact...  And the pictures of an AC-130 would have been pretty damn cool.  But the point is that reducing large parts of Mogadishu to (even more) rubble would have been bad news.

There is also a lot of fuss made over the fact that Task Force Ranger had no IFV's.  People say that if they had had Bradley APC's, they could have executed the exfil plan even with the withering fire. Thing is, the force requests didnt even ask for armor.  the plan was to strike fast and retreat. And it worked, at least till October 3rd.

Wow, it's cool to be having an actual military discussion

[Warin 0]

3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ June 15 2002,073)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And Blackburn missed the rope cause the chopper had to dodge a rocket. No ones fault really.........except the guy who fired the rocket maybe.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, that's an invention of the film.  There  is no mention of an RPG being the cause of the fall.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Blackburn hadn't been shot, he'd fallen.  He'd somehow missed the rope.Seventy feet straight down.  He had just been reassigned as assistant to the chalks' 60gunner, and he'd been carrying a lot of ammo, so he was heavier than he'd ever been on a fast rope.  That, the excitement, the extreme height of the rope in.. For whatever reason, he hadn't held on.<span id='postcolor'>

Typical Hollywood

PS: can anyone actually tell what my new avatar is?

[timmy 0]

he wasnt shot in the movie or book. And there was an rpg fired at the chopper in the movie which suposedly made him fall. But i dont remember that in the book.

[Antichrist 0]

They should've left that idiot there to die! If not for his stupidity so many soldiers would've not died!

[Aculaud 0]

yeah, well........tell that to the rangers who "Leave no man behind"

And Warin,

I can VAGUELY tell what your avatar is. you might get more success from a bigger sig pic.

[Jester983 0]

Seeing as how many of you are relating book to movie. Would you recommend the book?

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Antichrist @ June 15 2002,07:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They should've left that idiot there to die! If not for his stupidity so many soldiers would've not died!<span id='postcolor'>

Whoa. That's a little harsh!

Have you ever fast roped from a helo? I am sure it's a little more difficult than the average joe might believe. Plus he was laden with ammo and probably totally high on adrenaline.

As for his accident holding things up..I seriously doubt things would have gone any differently if he hadn't fallen. It isnt like several thousand Somalis went 'Hey..that bonehead Ranger fell..lets get our AK's and GET THEM!'

The resistance to the Rangers would have been just as bad, and the Blackhawks would still have been shot down. Super Six One wasn't going in to medevac Blackburn when it was shot down..it was doing it's job providing air cover.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jester983 @ June 15 2002,07:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seeing as how many of you are relating book to movie. Would you recommend the book?<span id='postcolor'>

I read the book before the movie. The movie is decent, but the book goes into a lot more detail and is totally worth reading if you are interested in modern military history.

It started off life MUCH larger, Aculaud. I just compressed it down to a small jpg to save bandwidth

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ June 14 2002,17:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ June 15 2002,00:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">nope. The weapon Durant uses is an MP5. The US doesnt use the G36; its a strictly European weapon.<span id='postcolor'>

...more German than anything really.<span id='postcolor'>

The G36 has also been adopted by Spain (and is being produced under license there) and Nepal. It is also in use by British and US law enforcement agencies.

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Antichrist @ June 14 2002,22:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They should've left that idiot there to die! If not for his stupidity so many soldiers would've not died!<span id='postcolor'>

Blackburn fell during the initial insertion, long before TSHTF, and there was no indication that saving him would cost the lives of any of his comrades.

As others have said, leave no man behind...

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ June 14 2002,22:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MDRZulu @ June 14 2002,21:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And yeah maybe and AC-130 would have prevented the whole thing from happening because the blackhawks were put in place of a denied ac-130 air support request, so maybe if the blackhawks had left and an ac-130 provided air support it would have been a flawless mission except for Todd Blackburn who somehow missed the rope.<span id='postcolor'>

well, iv never really seen an AC-130 spectre in action, but i actually think choppers were more efficient. Choppers have the ability to get a lot closer to the city if needed, where as planes would risk crashing really bad, and targets would be going by too fast if they tried to fly that close. I just think they needed better communication between the black hawks\little birds and the foot soldiers.

And Blackburn missed the rope cause the chopper had to dodge a rocket. No ones fault really.........except the guy who fired the rocket maybe.<span id='postcolor'>

The Spectre would have had the advantage of much heavier firepower, both in terms of volume and power. It also has better acquisition, tracking, and targeting technology.

Finally, it could have remained on station for many more hours than a chopper, and could have done so from a distance that keeps it safe from RPGs.

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (timmy @ June 14 2002,23:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">he wasnt shot in the movie or book. And there was an rpg fired at the chopper in the movie which suposedly made him fall. But i dont remember that in the book.<span id='postcolor'>

In RL he was a M60 gunner and had around 100lb more kit than he ever fasted roped with before and basically just dropped like a brick and wasn't able to stop himself at the bottom.

COLINMAN

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Antichrist @ June 14 2002,23:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They should've left that idiot there to die! If not for his stupidity so many soldiers would've not died!<span id='postcolor'>

Hope you aren't serious here. Hella bad thing to say really. Guess you never been in an accident before eh? The word Brother or Comrad mean anything to you?

COLINMAN

[Aculaud 0]

Would a unit like Delta force ever field machine gunners? I keep thinking about that, and i'm convinced that a machine gunner could have made a huge difference on the Shugart\Gordon raid of the Durant crash site.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ June 15 2002,07:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ June 14 2002,17:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ June 15 2002,00:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">nope. The weapon Durant uses is an MP5. The US doesnt use the G36; its a strictly European weapon.<span id='postcolor'>

...more German than anything really.<span id='postcolor'>

The G36 has also been adopted by Spain (and is being produced under license there) and Nepal. It is also in use by British and US law enforcement agencies.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh right! Didn't know that. Thanks

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hasharajima @ June 15 2002,05:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FUCK I HATE THOSE BARBARIANS!!<span id='postcolor'>

And I hate racism, this combined with your spam post hasn't resulted in a good day for you has it, consider your post restrictions gone until further notice.

[Hilandor 1]

that is the worst case of racism ive heard yet on these forums and is indeed sad to see

[FetishFool 0]

I understand why you guys ignore or even hate racism, but if you give it a good thought, you'd understand that racism is a great thing.

The bi-product of Racism is racial appreciation.

You can't love something that someone else doesn't hate.

And remember, we're racist every day. We don't notice it because we express our daily racism non-aggressively.

Just remember this the next time you say "I ain't shopping at a chinese super market." ; "I wouldn't buy an Afgani car." or "Eskimo?".

[AntiPasta 0]

well actually I find it a little hard picturing the average North-American/European population mutilating bodies...

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FetishFool @ June 15 2002,04:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I understand why you guys ignore or even hate racism, but if you give it a good thought, you'd understand that racism is a great thing.

The bi-product of Racism is racial appreciation.

You can't love something that someone else doesn't hate.<span id='postcolor'>

That's ridiculous -- just because some people hate a segment of the population doesn't make others automatically appreciate them. You have your feelings for your own reasons, not to compensate for someone else's feelings.

Regarding the idea that love can't exist without hate, what about a parent's love for a child? Are there some strangers going around with a deep hatred of that very same child?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FetishFool @ June 15 2002,13:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I understand why you guys ignore or even hate racism, but if you give it a good thought, you'd understand that racism is a great thing.

The bi-product of Racism is racial appreciation.

You can't love something that someone else doesn't hate.

And remember, we're racist every day.  We don't notice it because we express our daily racism non-aggressively.

Just remember this the next time you say "I ain't shopping at a chinese super market." ; "I wouldn't buy an Afgani car." or "Eskimo?".<span id='postcolor'>

That's rubbish. Under your logic I'm not allowed to call a Blackboard a blackboard either, because I might be insulting black people. But if I wanna stop black people calling a Whiteboard a whiteboard, I get branded a racist.

People like you are despicable