Cover Systems, Lean & Realism

[NoRailgunner 0]

Blindfire is not effective and could be used as last/deperate chance - if there is enough ammo left. One can be lucky to hit someone without even looking at him or knowing where he actually is. Blindfire is just a try to create some "confidence" or "faith" that the oppenent might not realise that he got the upper hand/initiative of this situation and that he could outmaneuver those blind shooters. Of course the oppenent could also simply shoot + wait until defending team/group is out of ammo/support. Some use of siege tactics. ;)

[Whirly 1]

Blindfire is not effective and could be used as last/deperate chance - if there is enough ammo left.

Blindfire is preferable to a bullet in the head. I have plenty of footage where the bullet doesn't miss it's target. There's no 'restart' option in the real world.

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Here's another real world example of 'back-to-wall' stance.

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[antoineflemming 14]

Blindfire is not effective and could be used as last/deperate chance - if there is enough ammo left. One can be lucky to hit someone without even looking at him or knowing where he actually is. Blindfire is just a try to create some "confidence" or "faith" that the oppenent might not realise that he got the upper hand/initiative of this situation and that he could outmaneuver those blind shooters. Of course the oppenent could also simply shoot + wait until defending team/group is out of ammo/support. Some use of siege tactics. ;)

Blindfire is meant to suppress, not kill. In most firefights, soldiers suppress the enemy until an opportunity arises to kill the enemy. And I seriously doubt, in large engagements, that you're going to kill the enemy without first suppressing him.

However, if BIS doesn't add some sort of suppression system where the enemy is actually suppressed by incoming fire, then there is no point for blindfire.

[rye1 22]

Good point antoine. But how would suppression effect work? ;)

It wouldn't have a long effect, plus reload and other lull times.

If you use blindfire on a chokepoint, some of your points are solved by the way. You use the tactic to the situation. It's not a tactic if it isn't working as you want it to. You could still use blindfire to try suppress, not matter what BIS added...

Edited March 28, 2012 by Rye

[Whirly 1]

But how would suppression effect work? ;)

I think blindfire would work perfect for PvP but that's about all, too complicated for the AI.

[Mr. Charles 22]

Whirly, most of the videos you posted have some kind of resistance fighters in east europe. I doubt they have proper military training.

[rye1 22]

PVP-only anims? ;) Be cool actually - if you could lock-out certain ones (server-wise) or change your settings. (Not a suggestion, just saying somethings that are not to peoples liking or "controversial").

Mr Charles, Check out the Marines in Fallujah.

They're going to have insurgents/guerrillas in A3 anyway.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Rye

[Whirly 1]

Whirly, most of the videos you posted have some kind of resistance fighters in east europe. I doubt they have proper military training.

Actually I posted 4 examples of U.S Marines and 3 examples of U.S soldiers using blindfire in combat in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. They were all very well trained.

[Mr. Charles 22]

Actually I posted 4 examples of U.S Marines and 3 examples of U.S soldiers using blindfire in combat in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. They were all very well trained.

? They have AKs and don't really look like GIs

[Whirly 1]

? They have AKs and don't really look like GIs

The examples I was referring to are on the previous pages. The footage you are commenting on was taken during the Bosnian civil war in the early to mid 90's. All male citizens were subject to military conscription in the former yugoslavia, regardless of nationality, so there is a strong chance that those fighters had some form of military training.

[Panda_pl 0]

Panda you must be really bad at playing then!

Not cool friend, not cool.

I have experimented and I think I see what the problem is: you are not supposed to lean to open doors. It puts you at a disadvantage.

The game only takes the position of your feet into account when determining how far away from door you are. It's actually beneficial to lean away from the door when trying your trick.

The AI will react to half opened door if they see you do it, possible reactions include running around, shooting hostage, throwing grenade or suppressing fire trough the door(since no visual contact).

I don't think that is important since ArmA does not need door opening system but who knows, maybe they are working on indoors aspect too...

As for game styles (RS and TSoAF since previous versions had no lean) there is the lean approach and the rush approach and both work equally good in my experience. You should really try fire on the move tactic if you're playing RS still, it works surprisingly well (just like IRL it seems).

The depth of R6 games was they allowed for different styles and approaches, despite perceived simplicity of combat.

[4 IN 1 0]

Blind fire may only work under unique circumstance, and the chances are, if you have to blindly firing your weapon towards enemies that you cannot see, something when very wrong in your mission, I am not saying it is unrealistic and no one use it, but it really is the least efficient way to employ your weapon, and a nightmare tactic if you have limited supply of ammo. Besides, if it really is a worthwhile thing to teach you to, you'd be seeing Travis Haley or Chris Costa teaching you how to do it. The bottom line is, it really is a cave man tactic that are not recommended under normal circumstance.

[onlyrazor 11]

The only form of blindfire I'd support for Arma 3 would be grenade-tossing. I mean, CQC isn't exactly a strongpoint of the Arma series, but hey, if you're gonna do it, do it good, no?

[Whirly 1]

This footage proves without a shadow of a doubt that the worlds best trained and most combat experienced troops use blindfire very effectively on the modern battlefield.

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[NoRailgunner 0]

Without a shadow of a doubt you got a "blindfire" videobot.... please read the comments and think about those certain situations where people use blindfire and why they don't aim + fire their weapons. But maybe you are one of those run'n'gun players who also like dual-wielded machinegun shooting from the hip? If such arcade action makes into A3 we should definitely demand the backflip hatchet attack!! Just imagine one could start this action behind his cover and suddenly appears in the air and the hatchet flys straight into his oppenent head/body.... "1000 points extra - achievement SuperSpecialForce unlocked" :D

[rye1 22]

People complain lack of realism, real world use - Whirly answers those questions. Later on in the conversation others are still commenting on it. Suddenly a troll appears talking about crap that has nothing to do with the situation, in a manner which just influences more arguement - but this time about things nothing to do with the original debate.

So let me re-do NoRailgunners question:

If it is implemented, how do you stop run the run and gun type play - the hide behind a wall and blind fire constantly, or at least try to prevent it?

And ignore everything else he posted! :o

[2nd ranger 282]

This footage proves without a shadow of a doubt that the worlds best trained and most combat experienced troops use blindfire very effectively on the modern battlefield.

I don't think so. Pause at about 26 seconds into

. The camera is clearly mounted at an angle, from which perspective it would just appear as if he was pointing his weapon around the corner when he's inside.

[Whirly 1]

I don't think so. Pause at about 26 seconds into

. The camera is clearly mounted at an angle, from which perspective it would just appear as if he was pointing his weapon around the corner when he's inside.

Judging by the the angle of the flashlight I think the camera is mounted directly forward, but you could possibly be right so I won't argue the point.

Here is another video for NoRailgunners.

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---------- Post added at 09:25 ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 ----------

If it is implemented, how do you stop run the run and gun type play - the hide behind a wall and blind fire constantly, or at least try to prevent it?

Why try to prevent blindfire? If only used in first person view then it is simulating reality.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Again for all those by blindfire obsessed Whirly's - where in all those vids do you see that blindfire is "very effective" or looks "trained"? Aren't those vids just showing people/soldiers who try to "piss off" their enemies somehow?

[Whirly 1]

Again for all those by blindfire obsessed Whirly's - where in all those vids do you see that blindfire is "very effective" or looks "trained"? Aren't those vids just showing people/soldiers who try to "piss off" their enemies somehow?

USMC in Fallujah -

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Syrian army defectors -

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[Panda_pl 0]

Why try to prevent blindfire? If only used in first person view then it is simulating reality.

Well, if I can bump in...

I doubt it would change the playing style. At all. This tactic can be easily countered with LAW or M203 shot or AT4 shot depending on distance.

It only works in RO2 because, well, they don't give you 4 frag grenades to play with since it's still closed level design and people would find ways to exploit those.

Whirly, I think it's a tactic very similar to bayonet charge. It still works but against specific enemies and in specific situations for specific purposes. Nothing against it but just like bayonet charge I think you would see it used once every couple months at best.

[hoak 0]

Wow... I never intended any of this in starting this thread, it's a sad thing when a thread goes this sideways as no one benefits; BI is less likely to bother reading a thread where would be Fans are bickering, and good posts, input and suggestions get ignored or skimmed past. When things started to get a little too obtuse I chimed in with the following remark:

Another consideration that doesn't get much play but is equally if not more important is lean/peek movement speed considerations with respect to hit-reconciliation time constants In many games the movement speed in these animations can over-speed hit-reconciliation even rather low ping scenarios where 'what you see is not what you get'...

This is a very real limitation and consideration in PvP MP games, that even has issues in ArmA and ArmA 2 -- doesn't anyone want to discuss practical game design limitations and implementation?

:(

Edited March 29, 2012 by Hoak

[maddogx 13]

Unfortunately there does not appear to be such a thing as hit-reconciliation in the RV engine (at least not in RV3). Bullets fired by the player are local, as is the corresponding hit detection. So if a player fires a bullet at another player and a hit is detected in his local simulation, this hit is reported to the server and the server simply acts on it.

[Whirly 1]

Whirly, I think it's a tactic very similar to bayonet charge. It still works but against specific enemies and in specific situations for specific purposes. Nothing against it but just like bayonet charge I think you would see it used once every couple months at best.

What some people here fail to recognise is that when fighting at extremely close range aiming may not even be an option, as exposing oneself to direct fire will result in certain death. I hope these videos help you to illustrate how close the combatants actually are to each other.

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[hoak 0]

Unfortunately there does not appear to be such a thing as hit-reconciliation in the RV engine (at least not in RV3). Bullets fired by the player are local, as is the corresponding hit detection. So if a player fires a bullet at another player and a hit is detected in his local simulation, this hit is reported to the server and the server simply acts on it.

Thanks MadDoX! I did not know... Client-side net-code is obviously fine or even better for COOP PvE games with p-code weapons, and even PvP if there's some sort of hit testing... But I guess that's why I found ArmA a little too frustrating for versus play... Is there any in-depth technical recitation on RV net-code, or net-code thread for ArmA 3? I can't seem to find anything but threads and posts that simply mention it like my own...

:confused: