God

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Yes I am on other forums, but what is MMGN's? What is your name on there? As for a world without religon would be a peaceful one, well you are wrong. If everybody in this world were a Christian it would make a great differance, for the better that is. Heaven is not a place in space, but a place where God rains and belivers live for ever.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

AAAAAHH!! IT'S RAINING GOD! GET INDOORS!

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Raining God? God does rain supreme.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 03 2002,00:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Raining God? God does rain supreme.  <span id='postcolor'>

Reign.

Sheesh.

Rain=Precipitation

Reign=Rule

Please go back to school, and take a few elementary english courses.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Never siad I could spell. or I had a great vocab.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

Get back to school? I think its pretty obvious this kid has at least another 5 of years of school left.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Actually it is 3.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 03 2002,01:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Get back to school?  I think its pretty obvious this kid has at least another 5 of years of school left.<span id='postcolor'>

True enough. I guess I believe that anyone over the age of 10 should be able to spell properly and understand the concept of a homonym.

Figuringthree years of high school left, that would put our fervent friend Duke of Ray in Grade 9. All I know is that if I had lacked english skills in the way he does, I wouldnt have gotten past Grade 9...

But then that is a debate for a different topic, I suppose

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

Regardless of what grade he is, I think we can unanimously agree that he is an idiot.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 02 2002,20:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for a world without religon would be a peaceful one, well you are wrong. If everybody in this world were a Christian it would make a great differance, for the better that is.<span id='postcolor'>

You are wrong my friend. Why? Because Christians cant even get along with each other.

Seen the news from North Ireland lately? And how about the Crusades? Man, those Christians were making the world a better place. The Reformation? It finally worked, but not after thousands were killed and or excommunicated. The Vatican's tacit approval of the Holocaust? Oops.

So no way would the world be a better place if there was only Christianity in the world.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 03 2002,01:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Regardless of what grade he is, I think we can unanimously agree that he is an idiot.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't care what you believe but calling people idiots on account of their religious belief is pretty poor of you.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

It's not his religious beliefs, its his manner. His "I am right and theres no possible way any other way can exist" attitude. And the way he talks, etc.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I will actually be in 10th grade. As for Northern Ireland, thats is a terriable deal, but remeber just becuae one says they are a Christian does not men they actually are.

[Placebo 29]

I'm tired of people being mocked because of their spelling/typing, if you have no other way of countering an argument then don't reply.

Also the "troubles" in Northern Ireland are nothing to do with religion as such, evil men will do evil things. The large majority of people in Ireland just want to be allowed to live their lives in peace and safety.

And I agree with D_O_R, saying you're a Christian is easy, living it is another thing entirely.

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 03 2002,03:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but remeber just becuae one says they are a Christian does not men they actually are.<span id='postcolor'>

So true. The church I went to as a kid everyone thought they were the best christian but they were all mostly far from it, in my opinion anyway. Aren't christians suppost to care? Noone cared when we had problems, we got shut out (me mum and me), but I think thats because we were part of the church, everyone else that had problems were helped, so it seemed, but they were not part of the church.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I am sorry about that Hardliner. I am afriad not all Churches put the will of God first, it is a very sad thing.

[Hardliner 0]

Is this just the way the Salvation Army behaves in general? They seem to think that just wearing a uniform makes them automatically a christian and saved or whatever. Oh well I guess their fate is waiting

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Well if they have not accept Jesus their fate will be vary bad.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Ah, but see, theres the catch. "If only everyone was a perfect Christian, everything would be so great." Well guess what? If everybody always did the right thing, we wouldnt need any religion, any code of conduct, any authority, any anything. You know what thats called? Its called an anarchal system. There is no ruling authority, no rules, and noone to enforce them. People just automatically are considerate of others, and everyone lives happily ever after.

But guess what? C'mon, guess. Give up? Ok. Here you go: It will never work, because people are never anywhere near always doing the right thing.

And thats why your whole idea of "Well, if everyone was a real, real, really real Christian, then the word would be a better place" argument falls flat on its self-assured face. The theoretical is a fun place, I love it. In the theoretical I rule the world, everyone except the people that really piss me off are happy, and Codemasters releases its games on time. In the theoretical, Karl Marx could maniupulate economic law using arbitrary political principles, and he could tell himself that it is a perfect system.

But in the real, real, really real, disgustingly real world, I dont rule much more than my wallet and my bedroom, people that really piss me off are allowed to do things like walk the streets unrestrained and hold public office, and Codemasters cant release a game to save its life. In the real world, communism has been experimented with in several major countries, and its result has been unprecedented bloodshed and violation of human rights. Sorry Karl.

Which brings me to your argument. In your little idea of how the world should work, your ubiquitous Christians hold food drives every week, they build houses for the poor, and go to the early church service.

Now, heres how it would work in real life: Most people would be apathetic about their religion, choosing to concern themselves with more worldly and practical pursuits, like, I dont know, paying their tithes, which would undoubtedly be jacked up to cover government taxes, because any government where all citizens are of one religion would undoubtedly be a theocracy, along the lines of a nation like Iran. So, as the ordinary believers slowly fall away from the faith, the leadership of the theocracy would eventually be hijacked by extreme Christians, who pervert their religion to goad true believers into thinking ridiculous things like: "This group of learned men have been sent by God to guide us. To ignore them is to ignore God."

So this group of extremists would manipulate religious and government laws to suit there needs (personal enrichment and job security), until the entire religion of Christianity is so twisted from its original form that more moderate believers become alienated and disenfranchised from the system of harsh rules and expensive taxing that is so unlike the religion that their grandparents knew. So, this group of alienated believers either try to reform or break away from the existing government/church. The leaders, seeing this as a threat to power, see that the only solution is to deal as harshly as possible with the reformers, and the most efficient way to do this is to label the reformers as "enemies of the faith", and, de facto, the entire world. So, although people are somewhat apathetic to their chosen religion, they do love their status quo.

Perceiving a threat to a belief that they truly feel is real, even if their own understanding of the religion has been eroded and twisted, they pitch to with a ferocity that is not to be believed, because when people fight for BELIEFS, things get nasty. So, with the governments sanction, reformers are hunted down, discriminated against, and generally are made miserable and/or dead. Except in a few places, local governments -chafing under the harsh taxes and limitation of their authority- start to aid and abet these reformers, sometimes actually sympathising with them, sometimes only using them for personal advancement, breakaway states start to form.

Thats right- civil war. And because religion is at the base of the conflict, it is incredibly brutal, because everyone based on their chosen religion is seen to be a combatant. Women and children are killed just as readily as soldiers. Both sides hands are bloodied. Eventually, enough blood is spilled and a balance of power is sufficiently insured that common sense breaks out. But now, the theocracy is shattered, because now beliefs are less certain, and the few who are certain are too few to make a significant difference. And so, there is no powerful central authority (most likely the original theocracy and its leaders still exist, however they are weakened severely), and smaller land owners start making grabs for their own power, sometimes in the name of their God, but usually just for the sake of greed. Soon, kingdoms begin forming, and although these kingdoms pledge lip service to a religion, as soon as the religious authoritie's actually try to exercise the power they supposedly have, the kingdom immediately breaks away, and the kingdoms leadership forms their own leadership to suit its own needs. I could go on and on (I already have lol) but Ill stop here.

Now, could anyone versed in world history tell me if what I just described is based on theory or simple speculation, or is what I just described grounded in real events. Cmon, guess.

[Placebo 29]

Christianity isn't about being perfect, never has been, never will be. It's about living your life as well, as good, as pure as you're capable of, it's about having faith, it's about being born again, it's about giving your life to God and putting your trust in him. And yes that's only a part of it, after all it's a long time since I was a practising Christian, but one lesson you never forget is that Christianity isn't about being perfect, it's not possible for us to be perfect.

[Guest]

I think that one of the major points of Christianity (and one that I *really* dislike) is the thesis that humans are sinners by nature. Nothing we do can prevent us from sinning. The only way to go to heaven is to accept Jesus and he will forgive the sins.

Judaisam and Islam are a bit different on that point. Jewish people can get to heaven by themselves by following a more or less detailed code of conduct, but without any divine intervention.

Islam, if I am not mistaken, has basically a system where your good deeds must outnumber the bad deeds for you to go to heaven.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

No one can say, "Christianity means: this" because there are so many different sects of Christianty that no one will ever agree what it means. I urge people to be a little more specific when they say "__"

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ July 04 2002,01:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Christianity isn't about being perfect, never has been, never will be. It's about living your life as well, as good, as pure as you're capable of, it's about having faith, it's about being born again, it's about giving your life to God and putting your trust in him. And yes that's only a part of it, after all it's a long time since I was a practising Christian, but one lesson you never forget is that Christianity isn't about being perfect, it's not possible for us to be perfect.<span id='postcolor'>

Ahh, but thats the thing. I never said anything about people being perfect. I just was talking about people who would always do the right thing in regards to their fellow man. Lemme tell ya, you can count those people and not have to take off your shoes. Now, I laid out a scenario that is not only a plausible future scenario, it is a FACTUAL historical scenario. What I ran down is basically Cliff's Note's of Europian geopolitical and religious conflicts from the Dark Ages through Mary Tudor. And that, my friend, is why homogenized religion is not only an impossibility, but it is also a very distasteful scenario.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Why cant yall just see that Jesus loves you? I am not trying to judge yall, but help yall. I want you al to go to Heaven and not hell. Jesus died for you! Who else has done so much for you??? Jesus died to save us from eternal death and our sins. You may ask what is the meaning of life, well the meaning of life is to do God's will, which is to accept Him and to obey Him, please ask God into your life, not for me, but for your own good.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I want a debate, not an evangelical session. Im going to ask you once Duke. Please dont ever try to convert me to a religion again. Thank you in advance. I respect your right to believe what you want, and Im not going to bother arguing the existence of a divine entity. But please, never, ever try to convert me. If I want to join the flock, I will open the corral gate myself.