God

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Im not pushing around and if somebody said that about my belifies I would have to say they are wrong. Like I have said before why would I tale yall this if I didn't care?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 14 2002,21:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well to look all around you, how can you not believe in God? How could the universe fit perfectaly into place? There is no way the planets could have benn in the right order without God placing them like that.<span id='postcolor'>

Laws of physics mate. Nothing strange there. Mathematical symmetry.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Also look at all the people who have died for Christ! Why would they die for seomthing that is not real, and I dont mean killing themselves. <span id='postcolor'>

Look at all the people who died for communism, capitalism, nazism... You could make a long list of people who have died for stupid things.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why would I sit here and tell you all this if i did not give a rip about what you believe? I wan't yall to believe what is real and true, I do not want anybody to go to hell, not even Osama,although I doubt he reads this message board.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, that is very nice of you, but I have no need for salvation. I don't believe in heaven or hell. You sure are entitled to your own beliefs, but if you claim that it is the absolute truth, then you have to give evidence.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, that is very nice of you, but I have no need for salvation. I don't believe in heaven or hell. You sure are entitled to your own beliefs, but if you claim that it is the absolute truth, then you have to give evidence.<span id='postcolor'>

I always knew you were a godless heathen, Denoir! You prolly believe some beefy blonde tart chanting 'HiYiYo' is going to thunder out of the sky and carry you off when you die! Damn scandinavians!

In a lot of ways, Christianity is a religion of hypocrisy. It preaches tolerance and peace, yet more blood has been spilled in the name of Christ than any other religion. (I am sure Islam is close..but it's several centuries younger, and thus hasnt had the time to be as bloody).

I am not condemning people who believe a certain way...I am just condemning hypocrisy and arrogance.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 14 2002,22:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why would I read a site about not believing in God,when I know you have to believe in God to get to heaven?<span id='postcolor'>

Now you are not just ignorant, you are actually the worst case of tunnel vision I've read posts from in a long time. Why won't you read the site? Are you afraid to lose your faith or what? I've read most of the bible and even been to church, despite that I'm an atheist. Only by knowing how the "opposition" thinks and work, can you have trust in your beliefs, whatever that may be. But you will not even dare read one page from a website. Now who is unwilling to be openminded here?

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Why waste my time on something that is not true? There is a God and I know it, becuase I have accept him. YOu have evidence of God's excistance,like when somebody is saved they have a change in their life for the better, and yes some of it is Faith but I know without a doubt that when I die I am going to Heaven because I accepted the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Warin 0]

One of my fundamental Christian friends said to me once:

Since you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your saviour, you are going to hell.

I asked her this:

If I live my life in an exemplary manner. If I do good with my life, help people and generally strive to be a just and fair person, but I dont believe that Christ was the literal son of god... I am going to hell?

She said:

Yes.

So I said:

If a serial killer, someone who has killed many people without remorse, someone truly bad and evil... if they convert on their death bed and ask for forgiveness, they will go to heaven?

She said:

Yes

So I said:

I'd rather go to hell than to believe that that way could possibly be right.

If there is a god, I like to believe that He/She will judge a person not on what they believed in, but on how they lived their life.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Afraid you are wrong there friend. If you do all kinds of good in your life but you do not accept Christ as your savior you will go to hell, and yes if a killer,like Osama, asked Jesus into his life on hist death bed, he would go to heaven.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 15 2002,04:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Afraid you are wrong there friend. If you do all kinds of good in your life but you do not accept Christ as your savior you will go to hell, and yes if a killer,like Osama, asked Jesus into his life on hist death bed, he would go to heaven.<span id='postcolor'>

Well..what can I say to that.

It's just a shining example of why I should accept jesus

[PitViper 0]

There are so many different interpretations of "God" that it is difficult to have a decent debate about it.

You could say that God must exist because the universe is ordered and that order = God. that's just an example.

[advocatexxx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 14 2002,22:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Afraid you are wrong there friend. If you do all kinds of good in your life but you do not accept Christ as your savior you will go to hell, and yes if a killer,like Osama, asked Jesus into his life on hist death bed, he would go to heaven.<span id='postcolor'>

In other words I can sin like a motherfucker all my life, mass murder, bomb and do all sorts of evil stuff, but on my death bed, if I ask Jesus into my heart all shall be forgiven and I will live happily ever after in the Heaven ? Nice. I'll try to remember that.

By the way, who the hell would want to have an "eternal life" ? Whatever the average age for a man on this planet is, well, it's plenty. Now you're saying I'd live forever ? Sounds to me like my worst nightmare.

[Bonfire 0]

ah interesting thread.

anywho, heres my take... i should point out though, i do not have "all the answers", i'm just tossing in my 2 cents

i do believe that there is a God. And i believe that he created life and earth and such.

Things like a strand of DNA for example, i think that for something that exact, that fine tuned, can only be created by a loving and dedicated creator. I think that for humans to come this far, to have done so much more than any other species in the history of time (and in such a short period of time) is not a fluke.

And for such a wide variety of life to come from a random mixing of amino acids and protens and such just seems so unbelieveable. I have a friend whos a sold atheist, and she believes in evolution, and thinks that 100,000 years ago, a sudden change happend in "our" brains that made us more intelligent. and to her, the notion of a God was very far fetched. Not unlike the notion of a sudden change in our brains is to someone who is a creationist.

I believe that God has given us freewill (i figure because its more satisfying to be worshiped by people who want to rather than people who have to), and has given everyone a purpose. I can't imagine that life evolved for a billion years just so i can waist time in from of my pc.

anyway, i'll leave it at that for now

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (advocatexxx @ June 15 2002,00:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 14 2002,22:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Afraid you are wrong there friend. If you do all kinds of good in your life but you do not accept Christ as your savior you will go to hell, and yes if a killer,like Osama, asked Jesus into his life on hist death bed, he would go to heaven.<span id='postcolor'>

In other words I can sin like a motherfucker all my life, mass murder, bomb and do all sorts of evil stuff, but on my death bed, if I ask Jesus into my heart all shall be forgiven and I will live happily ever after in the Heaven ?  Nice.  I'll try to remember that.

By the way, who the hell would want to have an "eternal life" ?  Whatever the average age for a man on this planet is, well, it's plenty.  Now you're saying I'd live forever ?  Sounds to me like my worst nightmare.<span id='postcolor'>

you are forgetting that it would have to be a sincere complete reformation, which would be very difficult if you have gone to the extent of Osama's crimes against humanity. it's not a "say the magic words" type deal.

[ale2999 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (advocatexxx @ June 15 2002,06:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 14 2002,22:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Afraid you are wrong there friend. If you do all kinds of good in your life but you do not accept Christ as your savior you will go to hell, and yes if a killer,like Osama, asked Jesus into his life on hist death bed, he would go to heaven.<span id='postcolor'>

In other words I can sin like a motherfucker all my life, mass murder, bomb and do all sorts of evil stuff, but on my death bed, if I ask Jesus into my heart all shall be forgiven and I will live happily ever after in the Heaven ?  Nice.  I'll try to remember that.

By the way, who the hell would want to have an "eternal life" ?  Whatever the average age for a man on this planet is, well, it's plenty.  Now you're saying I'd live forever ?  Sounds to me like my worst nightmare.<span id='postcolor'>

u dont know when u r going to die, so that doesnt apply................

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

You are exactly tight, you do not know hwne your going to die so the best time to except Jesus is right now!

[advocatexxx 0]

Throughout the ages, societies have tried to establish a universal moral code that clearly outlines right from wrong.  Generally these rules were about as simple as the ten commandements, but as societies increased in population, so did the complexity of the laws by which it's governed by.

Today, with roughly 6 billion people populating this planet, such laws are increasingly challenging, as by satisfying one living class they upset another.

It's our constant struggle, because of this conflict that underlines our disagreements.  A basic distinction between right and wrong may seem so elementary to a child, but once a person grows more intelligent and begins to dip their nose into far-out ideas, clashes are imminent.

Whether it's religion vs. science, or democracy vs. communism, wars over land, power and money will continue to be fought, and discussions like these will never end conclusive.

[Paratrooper 0]

Never in the course of human events have so many said so little, about so much...

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bonfire @ June 15 2002,06:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Things like a strand of DNA for example, i think that for something that exact, that fine tuned, can only be created by a loving and dedicated creator.   I think that for humans to come this far, to have done so much more than any other species in the history of time (and in such a short period of time) is not a fluke.  <span id='postcolor'>

My thought on that is that people confuse the mathematical symmetry of the laws of physics and its effects with something divine. The DNA is so fine tuned because the chemistry behind is fine tuned. The chemistry is fine tuned because the physics behind it is fine tuned.

Who created the laws of physics? What was before that?

-Those are only relevant questions if you see time in the normal linear way. That is however not the physical reality. You don't have a start in time and you don't have an end in time. Time is closely tied up with space. They are both wrapped into a sphere. So our normal time perceptions are not real on that scale.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And for such a wide variety of life to come from a random mixing of amino acids and protens and such just seems so unbelieveable. I have a friend whos a sold atheist, and she believes in evolution, and thinks that 100,000 years ago, a sudden change happend in "our" brains that made us more intelligent. and to her, the notion of a God was very far fetched. Not unlike the notion of a sudden change in our brains is to someone who is a creationist.

<span id='postcolor'>

There are documented examples of random biological mutations.

[nordin dk 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My thought on that is that people confuse the mathematical symmetry of the laws of physics and its effects with something divine. <span id='postcolor'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who created the laws of physics? What was before that?

-Those are only relevant questions if you see time in the normal linear way. <span id='postcolor'>

One doesn't exclude the other. A divinity might have instilled the laws in the universe, and then sat back and watched it expand in time and space.

Even with a non-linear model this is obviously possible.

[Guest]

Absolutely. You can never prove that there is no God. I think it was Kant who came with the suggestion that we could very well imagine that our senses are being manipulated by a divine being. Without our senses we cannot say anything about the world, and that includes of course the existance of a God.

My viewpoint is however not that we have to proove that he doesn't exist. The believers have to proove that he does exist. And so far I have not seen anything remotely convincing.

[nordin dk 0]

And again I have to stress that it's in essence wrong to involve proof in an issue of faith.

For the believer, there is no need for proof.

His feelings are enough.

And that is the power of religion, and also what makes it dangerous.

I also have to say, that even though I don't like the idea of there being one truth, there is a strenght in settling for a truth.

I will probably be searching my whole life for something to believe, where as Duke_of_Ray (whom I assume is in his teens) has found something already. Something that is meaningful and truthful to him, in a world where you can take nothing for granted, where everything is given shallow meaning, where you are bombarded with meaningless things.

Do you not see something beautiful and strong in saying "I choose to believe that this is the truth, and that it is all I need to know".?

Somehow, I do.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

Saying that the perfection of space and planetary harmony is a proof of God ... worthless argument. A 1000 years ago, everyone thought thunder and lightning was the proof of God. In reality (as we know now) this is a totally explanable natural phenomena - nothing devine or supernatural about it at all. The same goes with the balance of the universe. By saying it can only be God's work, you're really saying that you just don't understand it. It all has a physical explanation. All of it.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ June 15 2002,03:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why waste my time on something that is not true? There is a God and I know it, becuase I have accept him. YOu have evidence of God's excistance,like when somebody is saved they have a change in their life for the better, and yes some of it is Faith but I know without a doubt that when I die I am going to Heaven because I accepted the Lord Jesus Christ.<span id='postcolor'>

I did not ask you to read the site to become an atheist. I asked you to read the site to understand how we think. This post of your just prove that you are unwilling to even try and explore our point of view, even just in natural curiosity as to how your fellow man think. You are absolutely robbed from any kind of curiousity or care for anyone else's but your own specific point of view. You are a religious fanatic.... That makes you the most stubborn and narrowminded person I've ever talked to. Congratulations on that.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Thanks gimbal. But how could evre thing fit into its ecatx place without out God to put it there? I have no reason to read an athiest views when I know for certain they are not true.

[Guest]

rotflmao! i wish you good luck Gimbal in winning this argument

[advocatexxx 0]

There are more moderators on these forums than average members, didn't Zeus work alone ?

I bet Duke of Ray looks (and acts) like that white guy with long white hair in the movie Contact. Does anyone know what I'm talking about ?