No nuclear threat please..

[Craig_VG 20]

Well I can't speak for the naive kid part, but it definitely isn't propaganda. There are plenty of people in this fucked up world that would jump at the chance to start a war, as long as they believe their side will either win or will benefit from it.

Say your a dictator of some nameless country somewhere. Your civilian populace starts to rebel, rising up against you and your government. You're a smart dictator though, so you recognize the warning signs before all hell breaks loose. What can you do, in order to maintain the position of power that you have spilled and shed blood to achieve?

The answer is simple. Make somebody else the bad guy.

There are many ways to go about doing this. Find somebody else who's a legitimate target for the people's anger for example. Take a small incident, anything from a guy trafficking drugs across the border, to a member of some embassy screwing up. Anything. Play it up. Make it much bigger than it actually is. Incite the people's wrath in that direction, and then finish it off with something to cement that anger in the minds of the public. It doesn't matter if people start questioning things a month later if you've already declared war by then.

That big event could be anything from a border clash, to a plane crash, naval clashes, a citizen of your country being murdered within the borders of your enemies. The possibilities are endless. The only qualifier is that it has to seem legitimate int he biggest way possible. People have to die as a result.

Take Tom Clancy's book Red Storm Rising. The clincher in his book was the USSR setting a bomb inside the Kremlin, killing visiting children, some minor politicians, etc.

They blamed Germany for the whole ordeal. They even had a deep cover Russian who'd been implanted into Germany decades earlier confess to the whole ordeal. As a German citizen of course.

Imagine this. Your an average Russian farmer, businessman, whatever. You and your family are starving. Your pissed off at the government. Suddenly you find out that Russian children were killed when a German, a lousy goddamn kraut (Trying to paint a picture of you as a Russian under these circumstances. Germans need not take offense.), planted a bomb inside the Kremlin. The children weren't even the worst of it you realize, the dirty bastards to the west not only killed innocent young children, but they tried to kill the leaders of the USSR! Why should you complain about not having enough to eat when you see mothers on TV mourning their children. Children killed by Germans. You'll work harder, for less if need be, just to show those dirty bastards what happens when you fuck with the Rodina. You'll even wish that you had a chance to fight on the front lines, knowing that you're too old for that foolishness but wishing it all the same.

In the end, you forget that you are/were starving. You forget that you hated, maybe even despised your government. Why? Your people, Your country, Your Rodina, has been attacked by an enemy turned ally turned enemy once more. You don't stop and think, not for a damn second, that any of it could be false. Not until years later. The fact that the Germans have killed millions of Russians in the past helps the whole thing along even more.

In the end, the best thing a dictator or government can do, is start a war that it has designed. It distracts the people from their original target. It unites them all against a common foe, reinforces the bond of the country. Yes it can backfire, yes it has backfired. But if you think you're going to lose your precious dictatorship, make some other poor bastard the bad guy instead of you. Works every time.

That's not propaganda. I'm definitely not naive. I am 19 though, so you could consider me a "kid". But hell, everything up to and including that term is relative.

Well said, well said.

(Red Storm Rising is quite a good book on some ways)

Bobtom

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Heh. Thanks. I chose Red Storm Rising as my example because it's fictional, less chance of pissing somebody off compared to using a real world example. There's stuff Clancy could have done better in it, but overall it's a very good read. He actually managed to create a World War III scenario without bringing nuclear war into the equation. That's pretty damn hard to do, especially when your story is set during the cold war period. He did bring the threat in, towards the end, but he did it in a believable way.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

You're underestimating human stupidity. Religious fanaticism+nukes+pretext for war = risk of WWIII. They don't need a good reason, anti missile systems could be enough for them to start a war.

the so called religious fanatics are not stupid at all, look at the domino effect they've created by flying a few planes into our buildings, they've practically crippled the united states and beyond. i am not siding with them but please look at this objectively. they'd gain nothing to use a nuke so close to their home, because nuclear fall out alone would kill them off slowly not to mention the retaliatory nuke strike from nato, it's mutually assured destruction. having nuclear weapons for any nation is equivalent of getting a seat at the poker table. if you have a nuke you have a voice, why do you think nato try so hard to stop non allied nations from developing such technology?

---------- Post added at 06:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 AM ----------

Well I can't speak for the naive kid part, but it definitely isn't propaganda. There are plenty of people in this fucked up world that would jump at the chance to start a war, as long as they believe their side will either win or will benefit from it.

Say your a dictator of some nameless country somewhere. Your civilian populace starts to rebel, rising up against you and your government. You're a smart dictator though, so you recognize the warning signs before all hell breaks loose. What can you do, in order to maintain the position of power that you have spilled and shed blood to achieve?

The answer is simple. Make somebody else the bad guy.

There are many ways to go about doing this. Find somebody else who's a legitimate target for the people's anger for example. Take a small incident, anything from a guy trafficking drugs across the border, to a member of some embassy screwing up. Anything. Play it up. Make it much bigger than it actually is. Incite the people's wrath in that direction, and then finish it off with something to cement that anger in the minds of the public. It doesn't matter if people start questioning things a month later if you've already declared war by then.

That big event could be anything from a border clash, to a plane crash, naval clashes, a citizen of your country being murdered within the borders of your enemies. The possibilities are endless. The only qualifier is that it has to seem legitimate int he biggest way possible. People have to die as a result.

Take Tom Clancy's book Red Storm Rising. The clincher in his book was the USSR setting a bomb inside the Kremlin, killing visiting children, some minor politicians, etc.

They blamed Germany for the whole ordeal. They even had a deep cover Russian who'd been implanted into Germany decades earlier confess to the whole ordeal. As a German citizen of course.

Imagine this. Your an average Russian farmer, businessman, whatever. You and your family are starving. Your pissed off at the government. Suddenly you find out that Russian children were killed when a German, a lousy goddamn kraut (Trying to paint a picture of you as a Russian under these circumstances. Germans need not take offense.), planted a bomb inside the Kremlin. The children weren't even the worst of it you realize, the dirty bastards to the west not only killed innocent young children, but they tried to kill the leaders of the USSR! Why should you complain about not having enough to eat when you see mothers on TV mourning their children. Children killed by Germans. You'll work harder, for less if need be, just to show those dirty bastards what happens when you fuck with the Rodina. You'll even wish that you had a chance to fight on the front lines, knowing that you're too old for that foolishness but wishing it all the same.

In the end, you forget that you are/were starving. You forget that you hated, maybe even despised your government. Why? Your people, Your country, Your Rodina, has been attacked by an enemy turned ally turned enemy once more. You don't stop and think, not for a damn second, that any of it could be false. Not until years later. The fact that the Germans have killed millions of Russians in the past helps the whole thing along even more.

In the end, the best thing a dictator or government can do, is start a war that it has designed. It distracts the people from their original target. It unites them all against a common foe, reinforces the bond of the country. Yes it can backfire, yes it has backfired. But if you think you're going to lose your precious dictatorship, make some other poor bastard the bad guy instead of you. Works every time.

That's not propaganda. I'm definitely not naive. I am 19 though, so you could consider me a "kid". But hell, everything up to and including that term is relative.

sure you could start a skirmish with your third world next door neighboring country. though we're talking about nuclear war here, how do you think anyone's going win/benefit from it? there's no place for anyone to go after the nuclear holocost and the fall out would slowly and painfully kill everyone. so how do you think this will serve anyone, especially that said dictator?

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Nobody said the nukes actually have to be used...

The goal here is for a realistic and believable storyline, within the confines of the ArmAversum. If the Iran in the ArmAverse is anything like the Iran in the real world, then they will have nukes by the time WWIII breaks out. I'd hope that they would be smart enough not to actually use them, but the threat should hang over you in at least part of the storyline, depending on how important this secret on limnos actually is.To be honest though, somebody here mentioned that it was hinted that nukes have already been used in WWIII by the time the player arrives on limnos. All I hope, personally, is that the nuclear threat isn't left out of the storyline, but that it isn't overdone at the same time.

The bulk of my post you quoted though was directed at NoRailgunner's response to what Dragon posted. Dragon seems to realize that about 95% of the world is evil, and that most people will do anything for power, money, greed. The whole "Make somebody else the bad guy" thing is not restricted to your third world neighboring country though. To pull that sort of thing off the enemy/scapegoat has to be somebody who can actually do what you're trying to set them up for. Most of the time the country that becomes the focus of the dictators efforts is a major country. The US, The UK, Russia, etc. etc. etc.

They are never smart enough to realize that while you can distract your own populace with conflict, in the end the war ends horribly for said dictator. Or leader, as democratic leaders aren't above the practice either.

The bigger you are, the less chance you're opponent will be able to rally support to their side, but for the smaller dictatorships that attempt it, in the end declaring war on a superpower is like trying to duel against a cavalry sabre with a pool cue.

[Evil_Echo 11]

The bigger you are, the less chance your opponent will be able to rally support to their side, but for the smaller dictatorships that attempt it, in the end declaring war on a superpower is like trying to duel against a cavalry sabre with a pool cue.

If you go toe-to-toe using conventional weapons and tactics, absolutely true. But the record using asymmetric warfare techniques is another thing altogether. The how's and why's of WMD deployal can be left to the mission designer though. All it takes is time to research a good enough storyline.

To the weapons themselves then...

What has to be kept in mind is what fits the scale of the sim and to some degree what is feasible within the system.

Biological weapons are relatively slow acting. Excluding fantasy bugs like the one in Andromeda Strain the minimum time between exposure and onset of symptoms is at least several hours ( pneumonic plague ). While cheap to make, bio weapons are also very difficult to control precisely. So unless you are dealing with a madman wishing to infect the entire island, biologicals are off the list.

Chemical weapons are cheap, fast, and do not spread outside the zone of contact. To appear realistic, you would need changes to people models and/or animations. Blister agents cause horrific burns, which might be concidered gore by some. Incendiaries as well - along with the need for fire to propogate to nearby locations. Nerve agents are "clean" in terms of models, but do require special death animations - violent spasms. Anyone who has seen bug spray vs ants has seen this, not suprisingly most nerve agents are molecularly similar to insecticides. Otherwise a good candidate.

Nukes are the most controversial of course. They do damage to material and personel, leave persistent hazards in the form of radiation, and are quite spectacular. However, ArmA is not suitable for large nukes ( aka city-killers ). For one thing the immediate effects (blast, heat, radiation) would cover too much map for the scale ArmA supports. Additionally 100% fallout contamination would be a certainty. Another strike against city-killers is graphics. The ArmA2 engine bogs down with large cloud generation, if you increase the size beyond a certain point the GPU pipelines fill up and the effect degrades. Coded wrong and the end-user will experience severe lag, frame-frames approaching a slide show.

Tactical nukes are a better fit to the sim. The smaller weapons damage radius is more to scale for ArmA map sizes. The graphics issues are more managable - with A3's new engine physics and particle effects would be expected to run better still. They also are a good fit with current geopolitics. Superpowers like the US have moved to smaller warheads as weapon delivery precision has increased. And a rogue state's first attempts at such weapons are likely to be low-yield as well.

Assuming the weapons actually are used, NBC conditions apply. This would entails special game rules and equipment like MOPP suits and pressurized vehicles. Using non-rated gear would entail risk of exposure to whatever hazards are present. However, being suited up for long times strains one's endurance and limits vision and communication. Civilians would likely be unprotected with extreme casualty rates. Once alerted, professional forces would suit up, resulting in few injuries.

Anyway - points to ponder during this discussion. Personally - I'd look at chemicals or tactical nukes, depending on what talent was available on the team.

[Cripsis 10]

It won't be nukes or chemical weapons, Nato and Eastern armies already have plenty of those. The official website mentions that the Nato Special Forces group were accompanied by Researchers, I'm tipping they were sent to limnos in search of some new powerful electromagnetic weapon that's in an advanced stage of development.

[maddogx 13]

I bet it's a matter/antimatter weapon. :D

[Maio 293]

I bet it's a matter/antimatter weapon. :D

I bet it's a militarized version of Chuck Norris. Type 1 Battlefield Interdiction Unit ( NATO reporting name : "A blast from the past" )

I crave for more info from BIS :(

[NoRailgunner 0]

Question are:

1. Why and who exactly started the war in 2021.

2. Why Iranian Forces had to invade Limnos in 2025?

3. Why a combat technology research group is send to Limnos on 07/2035?

First guess is that there was already something important on Limnos:

- natural ressource of gas/oil

- "hidden" military R&D COMINT/ELINT center

- discovery of alien wreck/advanced technolgy

Second guess is that Iranian Forces + yet unknown faction were able to install + build weapon systems on Limnos that could easily hit anything at anytime in western hemisphere.

Third guess - the Limnos Incident is a red herring, just buy all DLC's to get the big picture. :p

[antoineflemming 14]

The invasion of Limnos was a part of the Iranian push through Europe... Clearly, since by 2035 Limnos is deep within enemy lines. But there was probably some research already going on on Limnos or some technology or something. HOPEFULLY it's not aliens.

[ProfTournesol 956]

It won't be nukes or chemical weapons, Nato and Eastern armies already have plenty of those. The official website mentions that the Nato Special Forces group were accompanied by Researchers, I'm tipping they were sent to limnos in search of some new powerful electromagnetic weapon that's in an advanced stage of development.

THIS is the utlimate WMD :

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Aliens? No no no, you've got it all wrong! It's giant ants. Probably giant evolved ants from South America, not space ants.

“One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the ants will soon be here. And I for one welcome our new insect overlords. I’d like to remind them that as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.â€

[wipman 1]

Hi, the neutron bomb that Jello Biafra & The Dead Kennedys sang about could be that secret whatever, or some of the Nicolai Tesla's invents... suppossedly, he made a junk that created a small earthquake back in 1906 or so, in an area of between 1'6 to 3Km.

Japan still blaming the EEUU for the Kobe's earthquake; and in the 71' the EEUU and the URSS, signed (under God & Richard D. Nixon) an agreement for don't use this kind of weapons (the cathegory involves: volcano, tsunami, quake, floods, hurricanes etc. I just don't remember the exact name), they revised the agreement with Russia to include China on the 94' under the same conditions and finnaly they said that reached an agreement to stop the development of such ones and don't use 'em; this was on the 2004'. There's alot of field to exploit the Teslas invents on the video games, this could be one of 'em; are far more scientific that the 96% of the bullshit that surrounds the video games background historys. Let's C ya

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

Hi, the neutron bomb that Jello Biafra & The Dead Kennedys sang about could be that secret whatever, or some of the Nicolai Tesla's invents... suppossedly, he made a junk that created a small earthquake back in 1906 or so, in an area of between 1'6 to 3Km.

Japan still blaming the EEUU for the Kobe's earthquake; and in the 71' the EEUU and the URSS, signed (under God & Richard D. Nixon) an agreement for don't use this kind of weapons (the cathegory involves: volcano, tsunami, quake, floods, hurricanes etc. I just don't remember the exact name), they revised the agreement with Russia to include China on the 94' under the same conditions and finnaly they said that reached an agreement to stop the development of such ones and don't use 'em; this was on the 2004'. There's alot of field to exploit the Teslas invents on the video games, this could be one of 'em; are far more scientific that the 96% of the bullshit that surrounds the video games background historys. Let's C ya

Nicola tesla helped the us develop particle weapons, but back in those days they couldn't figuree it out I think. The other thing tesla wanted noone to have was his invention of free energy by harvesting electricity frrom our atmosphere. He knew that in the wrong hands it could be used as a weapon so he divided the schematics into 3 or 4 different parts. Us has 1 part, russia has another, I think china or canada has another. The power of that said weapon is much more powerful than a nuke and leaves no radiation.

[HyperU2 11]

Standard Russian saber rattling today. Keep the nuke option.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/medvedev-russian-missiles-us-missile-defenses/story?id=15015335#.Ts2gzxeO7CY

[wipman 1]

Hi, if i had nukes... i'll keep 'em as a valid option too and there will be alot of places where you couldn't/shouldn't trip to if you wanna come back with all your teeth. Let's C ya