Please test SP mission: E04 Jackal with beta 85680, do you find trigger issue?

[msy 22]

please do me a favor. In this CIT http://dev-heaven.net/issues/25768, Suma need feedback as many as possible. If you also encounter my problem please vote it. Or you can put your opinion on it.

Thank you.

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Obs:

At least in beta 85680, when you play the SP mission E04: Jackal, you can kill many patrols of the base and you can waste your bullets on them but the alarm doesn't work compareing with 1.59 full patch in which once you kill one or two patrols you will trigger the alarm.

Exp:

If you kill some one quickly and no others find it then the alarm should not be triggered, in stead the trigger will work.

If you kill the soldier on the tower, he falls down, you will trigger the alarm.

If you kill one of some and others see his down you will trigger the alarm.

If one patrol finds a dead body he will trigger the alarm.

If you hurt one soldier he will also trigger the alarm.

This is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqWkuf6izRo

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---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 AM ----------

I myself can confirm in 1.59 full patch it is normal, but in 85680 the alarm trigger won't work until you kill quite a number of patrols of the base. Even once I killed all the patrols of the base and enter the base the alarm didn't work.

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Another thing I want to emphasize is, that in this mission there are two camps filled with soldiers with NVGs. Even in 85680 beta, once they see you by NVG, the alarm will be triggered.

Edited October 27, 2011 by msy

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

I understand the way the mission is played isn't up for debate in the 'repro', and you are looking for the potential cause for the alarm failing. I get that.

It's good you are helping with the CIT. I appreciate it, and even feel obligated to help now that I've stained your thread.

The fact remains, I feel compelled to comment that you are playing the mission wrong if you are shooting anyone. This isn't a Rambo movie where one man can take out any opposition. One man should never take on that base alone. The real skill is in the sneaky not the shooty, and I believe that mission was intended to showcase that.

reference:

[msy 22]

-Ziggy-;2044711']I understand the way the mission is played isn't up for debate in the 'repro'' date=' and you are looking for the potential cause for the alarm failing. I get that.

It's good you are helping with the CIT. I appreciate it, and even feel obligated to help now that I've stained your thread.

The fact remains, I feel compelled to comment that you are playing the mission wrong if you are shooting anyone. This isn't a Rambo movie where one man can take out any opposition. One man should never take on that base alone. The real skill is in the sneaky not the shooty, and I believe that mission was intended to showcase that.

reference:

I know how to sneak into the base, the video I posted just to express the issue, the exaggeration shows how bad the issue is.

Thanks to one of my friends talking about the problem with 85680, I tested it myself and also find the issue. Besides, I replay the mission in 1.59.79384 full patch, the trigger worked normal. So I think it must be something changed in 85680 or recent betas comparing with 1.59.79384 and the former versions.

[rgzkx 10]

Thanks to one of my friends talking about the problem with 85680......

Hellow msy! I'm your friend, right?:D

[msy 22]

Hellow msy! I'm your friend, right?:D

Nice to see you here. Can you show your opinion or repro or mission to help resolve the problem? My ability is so limited that I just think it has something to do with AI changes and trigger settings due to there are huge changes in recent betas.

[maddogx 13]

Does it make any difference whether you are right inside the base or far outside of it while shooting?

I can't test it right now, but might do later on. At the moment all I can offer are suggestions. :)

[rgzkx 10]

Nice to see you here. Can you show your opinion or repro or mission to help resolve the problem? My ability is so limited that I just think it has something to do with AI changes and trigger settings due to there are huge changes in recent betas.

All right,let's forget this issue.

I don't know how to create a sample mission or script, to show or debug what's difference of "AI trigger setting" in the "Beta 85680" and "1.59.79384" .:confused:

BIS have a lot of "Bugs" need to figure out, and most people think about that issue is "normal", it's looks like "no question",

Just a "mission", so, forget it, MSY.

We are waiting for the patch of 1.60!

----------------------------------------------------------------

TIPS: Oh....My awful English!!! I hope you can understand what I means.:butbut:

Edited October 27, 2011 by rgzkx

[OMAC 254]

-Ziggy-;2044711']

The fact remains' date=' I feel compelled to comment that you are playing the mission wrong if you are shooting anyone. This isn't a Rambo movie where one man can take out any opposition. One man should never take on that base alone. The real skill is in the sneaky not the shooty, and I believe that mission was intended to showcase that.[/quote']

Given how it was in 1.59 and earlier, there is no question that the mission was designed for stealth, as you would fail the mission if the alarm sounded, period. Killing even one of the 3 tower guards at the west and south edges of the base used to set off the alarm, the tank crews would enter their tanks and drive away, and you would fail the mission. So, there used to be no way to successfully complete the mission by blazing away like Rambo even if you tried. Different story in this beta, where Rambo could possibly prevail.

[rgzkx 10]

Killing even one of the 3 tower guards at the west and south edges of the base used to set off the alarm,

I don't think so.

In 1.59, if you can "one shoot one kill"(It's means kill the target very quickly), the alarm will not been trigger on.

I'm sure, I killed 4 tower guards in random sequence.

So, there used to be no way to successfully complete the mission by blazing away like Rambo even if you tried.Different story in this beta, where Rambo could possibly prevail.

yep, maybe. We will become "Rambo"?

Edited October 27, 2011 by rgzkx

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Killing even one of the 3 tower guards at the west and south edges of the base used to set off the alarm

Emphasized "used to" because changes were done to prevent psychicness that used to be before which was over the top buggy. I can now shoot guys (never tried that approach before though) without a feel of getting "magically spotted" if it doesn't make sense.

The trigger does seem to do exactly what it is intended to do: Set off the alarm after a certain knowsAbout is reached. As there is no additional reveal commands in any of the missions scripts, its safe to say it relies on built in mechanics.

I typically get away with killing off a couple of the lone tower guards (incl the one shown in the video), but going too far is pushing my luck and the alarm sounds. If this was not possible before, because you were supposed to do the stealth approach, I find this more appropriate and realistic. That's why I love this game; there is no "only way" to do things. Compare that to BF3.

Also note that I often get a lone unit on patrol very close to me when I land on the north side, after some time. Maybe he is the one detecting you and causes the alarm to sound? Keep in mind, the trigger goes off with:

this || BIS_touchedOff where this is set to BluFOR detected by OpFor.

Cool thing I never noticed though, the knowsAbout syntax also accepts side. Could someone update biki to reflect this?

unit: Object or Group

to

unit: Object, Group, or Side

Or do I misread all of this? Maybe the Rambo approach is too easy to succeed in or something? I tried on Expert difficulty, but kept reloading when alarm sounded (didn't try to beat the mission). Didn't notice the difficulty for a while.

Edit: Guess I'm the only one voting "No, I think it is fine to me, the AI should be like that now" then :p

The mission has some severe mission related problems, some of which may be caused by recent AI changes, but not all. Some stuff I noticed:

* Save games (from editor) doesn't cause progression with journal, making it impossible to finish. May be related to me changing difficulty, unsure. Wouldn't take it too seriously at this point.

* Helicopter can't take off as it's parked near a power pole (ID 35513). Seriously? It's like plenty of open room for an LZ, and they put it there? :p

* There doesn't seem to be any body detection going on (result from playing from editor?). I killed off the guardpost near the base entrance, and the BRDMs didn't notice them lying dead.

* Pretty bad detection in darkness. I had enemy patrols walking 2 meters from me, while I could see them clearly without NVGs due some ambient light/moonlight. Some scripted detection could help here.

* Lack of actual "enemy spotted" verbals that they would send over the radio before the alarm sounds. Alarm is also instantaneous on "detection". Even filling in the timers on the trigger would have helped here.

Stuff that does seem to work fairly ok:

* Killing off both enemies in a two man group is possible, as long as you kill them off quickly. Too slow, and they will report you.

* AI vehicles no longer detects you using 360° vision. This in an impressive improvement.

* I no longer reveal myself for triggering the charges. Ditto on improvement.

My conclusion:

Mission feels kinda broken, not so much for improved AI, but for lack of countering for the fixes.

Edited October 27, 2011 by CarlGustaffa

[mrcash2009 0]

My conclusion:

Mission feels kinda broken, not so much for improved AI, but for lack of countering for the fixes.

I would agree, im wondering how much extra time and work it will take to then bug test missions per patch and beta, maybe after 1.60 the missions might have been tested and released as the data files, or at least the patch arrives and the updated missions later.

[OMAC 254]

I don't think so.

In 1.59, if you can "one shoot one kill"(It's means kill the target very quickly), the alarm will not been trigger on.

Not true for me at all. See mission repro steps on ticket. One shot one kill of NW tower guard will set off alarm in 1.59. As I wrote on ticket, killing NE tower guard, who is isolated, does NOT set off alarm in 1.59.

There is no question that the "Rambo" technique is WAY TOO EASY, and your new ability to kill from afar 60%+ of the guards who are outside in the open without setting off the alarm means that the mission is now broken.

CarlG brings up several interesting points. I also have never seen the Taki heli take off, although I have heard it start up. I agree that the "hair trigger" alarm in 1.59 was maddening and a little "psycho," but I really think that was a design feature that ensured stealth would be used rather than Rambo tactics. Who would Rambo-ize an armor base alone? No sane soldier would, as Ziggy noted. In other words, The Jackal in 1.59 was PERFECT imo.

Many times I have been spotted crawling up to gas pump to place satchel. When that happens, I hear the Taki guy talking, presumably saying that he has seen something (i.e. me), so that is kind of an "enemy spotted" verbal.

"I no longer reveal myself for triggering the charges." I do not understand that. I always trigger the charges without being revealed, but I do it from quite a ways away from the base, up the hill to the south.

[ast65 10]

Well, differences are subtle but they´re there:

In vanilla I´m spotted at the latest when I kill the guard circling between the tanks,

in beta I´m spotted at the latest when I kill the gunner of the UAZ :p(later).

But it happened in both that the patrols outside spotted me or the alert went off when killing a tower guard (if you don´t shoot them in the head so they die without a sound), it seems only the probability to get detected is much higher in vanilla.

All in all stealth in vanilla is way harder and thus more realistic so this should be the way to go.

[OMAC 254]

I would agree, im wondering how much extra time and work it will take to then bug test missions per patch and beta, maybe after 1.60 the missions might have been tested and released as the data files, or at least the patch arrives and the updated missions later.

Imo, it would be a mistake to release the patch if it is known to cause severe issues with official missions. It is highly possible that other new bugs will be discovered after patch release, but we will cross those bridges in good time. Delaying patch release is quite painful to many who (like me) crave the MP improvements, but too bad. I am sure the BIS mission designers don't want to see their awesome missions broken!

I have often worried out loud in the beta forums about precisely this issue, that not enough official mission testing is going on with all the AI changes being made. A patch released that is known to break missions will cause massive frustration, especially with new users. Harvest Red campaign comes to mind - not a good scenario at all. Kudos to msy for finding this problem.

---------- Post added at 07:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 AM ----------

Well, differences are subtle but they´re there:

In vanilla I´m spotted at the latest when I kill the guard circling between the tanks,

in beta I´m spotted at the latest when I kill the gunner of the UAZ :p(later).

But it happened in both that the patrols outside spotted me or the alert went off when killing a tower guard (if you don´t shoot them in the head so they die without a sound), it seems only the probability to get detected is much higher in vanilla.

All in all stealth in vanilla is way harder and thus more realistic so this should be the way to go.

I agree 100%.

[suma 8]

This discussion is perhaps interesting, but it is not much constructive, as it does not help in fixing the issue. What would help me would be to extract a minimal (or at least less complex) repro from the mission. I guess someone could be able to do that?

[OMAC 254]

I would be more than happy to, if I had the skills. I spent 4 hours last night watching YouTube tutorials and designing my first little mission in the editor. Sounds like a job for A2 designing gods like PvPscene, Sickboy, Fireball, coffeecat, Wolle, etc., etc.

Does BIS offer courses in mission design and scripting, online or otherwise? Could be another way to bring in a little revenue. :D

[icecain02 10]

I think it is related to the A.I. behaviour changed in beta 83500

[83390] Fixed: Most units had maximum skill, ignoring values set in the mission (http://dev-heaven.net/issues/4483)

Played the mission with beta 83363, the alarm was easily triggered when I shoot one of the soldiers near the gas station. Since the mission is designed to sneakly infiltrate a highly garrisoned tank base, such A.I. response is more realistic to me.

[metalcraze 290]

Repro attached to the ticket

Only units within the base are present.

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

Repro attached to the ticket

Only units within the base are present.

EXCELLENT! thank you, metalcraze.

OT, how do you set an avatar in the CIT?

Edited October 27, 2011 by [DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

[metalcraze 290]

Gravatar. Turned out CIT supports it

[CarlGustaffa 4]

In other words, The Jackal in 1.59 was PERFECT imo.

I can't agree with myself what is best approach, but I really don't want to revert to old AI abilities due some single player mission:

1) Fix mission using fakes (like fired EH driving new reveal possibilities). This remains mission specific, but could also prevent me from getting too close to AI without them noticing me - like being able to place a satchel 1 meter from the UAZ I find a bit over the top :p

2) Fix AI hearing problem (changing stance on other side of fence doesn't affect knowsAbout). Easily causes unexpected problems in other missions relying on stealth.

3) Equip player with normal rounds rather than subsonic. Logic problem though, why would he? And why does the rifle still sound incredibly silenced?

4) Allow the problem by explaining why they are allowed, i.e. by camoflaging noises with wind or convoy moving through with air patrol in the area or whatever. Wind alone would at least help explain why they can't smell me when walking 1 meter from me. Rain could aid too, but requires reshot of image, and produces unwanted IR shading errors, so probably best to skip that one.

I went with #4 myself, adding some noise and wind, combined with adding a 2/3/5 timeout timer to the trigger, and unsynchronized crew joining. I'll try adding some fake reveals later on based on distance, line of sight, movement speed and visibility (height), and shooting activity of course.

Many times I have been spotted crawling up to gas pump to place satchel. When that happens, I hear the Taki guy talking, presumably saying that he has seen something (i.e. me), so that is kind of an "enemy spotted" verbal.

Yeah but those are intergroup communications. If a lone guard spots you he can't say anything since he's not in a group. The "flow of actions and reactions" doesn't seem appropriate with reasonable timing. I mean, I hope I'm not the only one who dislikes all the crew storming out of the buildings within a second of the alarm going? :) Make it a bit more believable.

"I no longer reveal myself for triggering the charges." I do not understand that. I always trigger the charges without being revealed, but I do it from quite a ways away from the base, up the hill to the south.

Well to be honest I'm not sure if it ever happened to me, but I've heard it from people I consider credible, although long time ago now. I've never tried actually monitoring knowsAbout to verify it.

[metalcraze 290]

Unless Suma will confirm that some AI scripts are broken I think the mission needs to be fixed using "!alive" trigger for guards in towers.

They are alone and killing them with a silenced weapon without causing a base-wide panic seems quite realistic. Maybe isn't good for the gameplay of this mission, but generally it is how it should be.

I'd say it's your "stealth kill", people who discuss this in ArmA3 forums.

Edited October 27, 2011 by metalcraze

[msy 22]

Suma has resolved the issue, but I can't test it these days, can anyone help confirm the fix when that beta is released (85881&85882)?

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/25768#note-18

I have seen and fixed two problems in the mission:

- when I killed one member of two-man patrol, the alarm did not trigger, because the unit seeing the kill immediately "forgot" about it (fixed in 85881, caused by #2067 note-12 fix)

- when I first let enemy to know about me, but not enough to identify me as an enemy (e.g. by firing a silenced shot close to it), then waited long enough (~2 minuts) and started killing enemies, the alarm did not sound. The reason was that when enemy was unable to learn my precise position, it did not update the target "last known time" on subsequent kills, and the "Detected by" trigger did not fire, because it considered the information about the enemy as too old (fixed in 85882)

While both fixes make sense, both are potentially dangerous, as they could change AI behaviour in other missions as well.

Maybe apart from this resolved issue, there could be other official missions or third party missions having AI behaviour issues by other fixes introduced by recent betas.

Edited October 28, 2011 by msy

[metalcraze 290]

Hopefully BIS will release the beta with these fixes today then

[OMAC 254]

Hopefully BIS will release the beta with these fixes today then

Yes. Looks like we've got more testing ahead. I wonder if we could coordinate the testing between us in some way, to speed things up?

Suma's second fix:

- when I first let enemy to know about me, but not enough to identify me as an enemy (e.g. by firing a silenced shot close to it), then waited long enough (~2 minuts) and started killing enemies, the alarm did not sound. The reason was that when enemy was unable to learn my precise position, it did not update the target "last known time" on subsequent kills, and the "Detected by" trigger did not fire, because it considered the information about the enemy as too old (fixed in 85882)

presumably relates to a problem introduced post-1.59 either as an AI "enhancement" or as a fix for some other problem. Which of those is the case? If the latter is true, which ticket did that fix address? Was it #4483? If we knew that, we may be able to more accurately predict which official missions are most likely to be affected by Suma's new fix.

-------------------------------------------------------

Thanks a lot for providing the repro mission, metalcraze! Is it possible to use the editor in an MP online session (with voice from imbedded VON or teampseak) for teaching purposes? That would be an great way for experienced users to communicate their editing skills to editor noobs, and would help us learn how to create repro missions much quicker than finding and watching YouTube tutorials of variable quality. Just an idea. If that is possible, wouldn't it be awesome for BIS or some independent editor god to advertise and host teaching sessions?

Edited October 29, 2011 by OMAC