Colonel Gadaffi found

[HyperU2 11]

Well if only OBL had gone down in front of a mob the video would have gone out. I'm pretty sure Q was alive for a while.

[VanhA-ICON 11]

I don't want to celebrate anyone's death on these forums.

However, I'm glad that the Libyan people have a chance for a fresh start. I just hope that the ones who gained most under Gaddafi regime won't be on the top positions again.

[sudayev 27]

That was just a dirty execution. He was still alive on this video without having two large holed on his head (temple and forehead). Executed at point blank range by this 18 year old gangbanger wielding gold plated browning. This shows how disorganized NTC is. They just ripped the old man into pieces instead fixing his wounds and bringing him to a court and then executing, that would +1 for NTC legitimacy. I don't see any bright future for Libya.

[ProfTournesol 956]

That was just a dirty execution. He was still alive on this video without having two large holed on his head (temple and forehead). Executed at point blank range by this 18 year old gangbanger wielding gold plated browning.

This weapon was Khaddafi's one. The fact he was executed after being captured isn't really surprising, Saddam wasn't because he was caught by US troops and not his own people.

[dale0404 5]

In my opinion he deserved everything he got at the end. Good riddance.

[Mr. Charles 22]

SPIEGEL Online reports that the NTC does not want to investigate Gaddaffis death, but they will bury the body as fast as possible:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,793100,00.html

[PELHAM 10]

You could add the UTA Flight 772 flight on that list. :mad:

If people wanted a complete list of Gadaffi's record of international terrorism it would stretch to many pages. I simply included the big 3 from the UK's perspective - there were many more. His meddling across Africa and his war with Chad resulted in 1000s of deaths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chadian%E2%80%93Libyan_conflict

RE Gadaffi's death - sometime after his capture he was shot in the upper left temple / left side of the head close to the left temple (there are 2 marks that look like bullet holes).

It looks likely that the entry wound is the lower one behind the left eye. The exit wound is at the top of the left temple

The NTC say it occurred in crossfire during an attack by Gadaffi Loyalists as they were putting him in a car.

The pictures I have seen on the net don't show any stippling or powder burns consistent with an execution style wound.

The trajectory of the bullet, from bottom left to top left also does not suggest an execution style wound.

The size of the wounds do not appear to be 9mm. They look more like the smaller 5.56 or 7.62mm to me? If so he could not have been executed with his own gun as suggested above.

With this type of wound to the front portion of the brain it was perfectly possible for Gadaffi to live for a short time afterwards. The blank expression on his face in the videos is typical of a lobotomy style injury. His body still appears to have muscle control, the neck is rigid, which is controlled from the lower, rear part of the brain.

The Spiegel is quite wrong - the body of Gadaffi was forensically examined. The funeral is taking place within 24hrs according Islamic practice and tradition. The thoroughness of the forensics is open to question but that is how things are done in Islamic Nations. Also he was not hiding in a sewer - it was in drainage pipes under a road where the road crosses a Wadi or dry stream bed. I guess German journalists are as ignorant as any other.

Edited October 21, 2011 by PELHAM

[sudayev 27]

Because their own people are only driven by revenge and hate, they can't control their behavior - this is their nature.

For example during the '89 Revolution in Romania their communist dictator Ceausescu was first captured, court marshalled and then executed - a right way of handling instead of yelling, smearing the body all over the place and praising the lord afterwards.

And now Interpol and International Criminal Court call Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam to surrender either them or locals. For sure he will go to surrender to this wild bunch of NTC especially after watching what happened with his father and brother.

This country is not ready for any form of democratic rule, they don't want any change in their country because all of them are violent just like Gaddafi. Now this 18 year old gangbanger should face the court now because he killed a damn important prisoner of war, but that's not gonna happen, this is Libya.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Sudayev

[max power 21]

They look more like the smaller 5.56 or 7.62mm to me?

Being hit in the head with rifle calibre weapons at close range causes what they call cranial evacuation. They would have had to have been long range shots if it was rifle calibre, I think.

[PELHAM 10]

Being hit in the head with rifle calibre weapons at close range causes what they call cranial evacuation. They would have had to have been long range shots if it was rifle calibre, I think.

Exactly - for all those who think this was an execution - search the term 'close range gun shot' and compare those pictures with the pictures of gadaffi. There are no black powder burns on either wound and there is no pock mark stippling from high speed burning grains of powder.

The journalists like a bit of fun - there is no evidence on the body of an execution. All I can see is that his nose appears broken. The fighters say they hit him in the face with a shoe which probably caused that.

[sudayev 27]

Forget about gun powder burns and what difference does it make if he was shot from point blank of 5 meters away, he was shot twice in the head after being wounded and captured alive and thats enough.

[PELHAM 10]

Forget about gun powder burns and what difference does it make if he was shot from point blank of 5 meters away, he was shot twice in the head after being wounded and captured alive and thats enough.

Forget about gun powder burns? Why? In the enlightened scientific age that is how we investigate things. People are saying he was executed with a 9mm pistol - there is no evidence of that.

If you go to the NY Times they link to the facebook video where you can see Gadaffi's actual capture. He is still fully conscious and is on the road above the wadi and is talking and wipes the blood out of his left eye and complains to the NTC fighters. There is significant bleeding from the left side of his head exactly where the shallow bullet wound is in the pictures taken after death. No doubt his condition quickly deteriorated as he was bleeding heavily inside the skull.

If he was shot twice in the head with a 9mm pistol there is no way he would be conscious and talking. There is only evidence of a shallow head injury. Sorry the facts don't agree with headlines and journalistic nonsense. Go look at the pictures yourself. This execution theory just doesn't add up.

If he was hit by an NTC bullet it was most likely while he was still inside the pipe. They probably didn't know who it was at first. If you poked your AK in there and noticed someone you would probably let off a few rounds while you jumped back.

Edited October 21, 2011 by PELHAM

[player999 10]

Wow i have heard nothing about this, its not on the news in my country i thought something like this would have to be on.

[sudayev 27]

Forget about gun powder burns? Why? In the enlightened scientific age that is how we investigate things. People are saying he was executed with a 9mm pistol - there is no evidence of that.

If you go to the NY Times they link to the facebook video where you can see Gadaffi's actual capture. He is still fully conscious and is on the road above the wadi and is talking and wipes the blood out of his left eye and complains to the NTC fighters. There is significant bleeding from the left side of his head exactly where the shallow bullet wound is in the pictures taken after death. No doubt his condition quickly deteriorated as he was bleeding heavily inside the skull.

If he was shot twice in the head with a 9mm pistol there is no way he would be conscious and talking. There is only evidence of a shallow head injury. Sorry the facts don't agree with headlines and journalistic nonsense. Go look at the pictures yourself. This execution theory just doesn't add up.

Of course he was alive during the video filming. Later on someone decided to decorate him two new bullet holes and this is what the whole thing is all about.

[PELHAM 10]

Of course he was alive during the video filming. Later on someone decided to decorate him two new bullet holes and this is what the whole thing is all about.

That makes 3 bullet holes - he only has two and he can be seen bleeding from them in the initial capture video.

Two bullet holes can mean 2 bullets or an entry and exit wound - if he was shot twice in the head he would not be fully conscious afterwards.

There is no evidence for anything you theorise here.

- no powder burns from a close range gun shot

- he could not have been shot from further away as after capture he was surrounded by a crowd at all times.

- at capture he was bleeding from the left side of the head and fully conscious, bleeding was exactly where the bullet wounds are pictured.

- there was fighting in the area and bodies can be seen in the wadi which are probably Gadaffi's body guards, he was not alone.

Therefore no evidence of summary execution.

Edited October 21, 2011 by PELHAM

[sudayev 27]

I'm not theorising about his death, you are mister with your forensic science knowledge I'm starting to believe you're a forum expert in the field. Yes I stated he was executed basing on actual information but the informations are quickly changing leading to constant develo[pemnt of opinions.

All I wanted to say he was slain right after they videofilmed and knoced him about without proper handling of a wounded person and trial.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Sudayev

[max power 21]

Exactly - for all those who think this was an execution - search the term 'close range gun shot' and compare those pictures with the pictures of gadaffi. There are no black powder burns on either wound and there is no pock mark stippling from high speed burning grains of powder.

The journalists like a bit of fun - there is no evidence on the body of an execution. All I can see is that his nose appears broken. The fighters say they hit him in the face with a shoe which probably caused that.

Oh, I was just saying it wasn't a rifle. And I call into question your ability to tell the difference between an 8mm hole and a 9mm hole from a photograph.

[PELHAM 10]

I'm not theorising about his death, you are mister with your forensic science knowledge I'm starting to believe you're a forum expert in the field. Yes I stated he was executed basing on actual information but the informations are quickly changing leading to constant develo[pemnt of opinions.

All I wanted to say he was slain right after they videofilmed and knoced him about without proper handling of a wounded person and trial.

I would agree with you about improper handling of a wounded prisoner. They did not treat his wounds and seemed more concerned at parading him around Sirte. He would have required urgent treatment and under ideal circumstances may have survived. The nearest suitable hospital was in Tripoli - 2hrs by car.

He was also shot in the upper abdomen / lower thorax and not much has been said about that. Who knows what damage that caused.

The NTC fighters version of events is that he fled from a 4WD in the convoy that was under attack and hid in the pipe. His body guards returned fire and were all killed. They can be seen lying dead in the wadi in early photographs of the scene. The NTC fighters say Gaddafi was already wounded when he came out of the pipe, he was armed. The mobile phone video is taken on the road directly above the pipe.

Who knows what happened but I can't find anything that backs up a summary execution. The injuries don't support it and if he was shot in the gunfight with his body guards or in the pipe by nervous fighters well that is understandable.

Badly treated and medical treatment withheld - yes.

---------- Post added at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------

Oh, I was just saying it wasn't a rifle. And I call into question your ability to tell the difference between an 8mm hole and a 9mm hole from a photograph.

Well you can't be precise. I have guestimated it based on other facial features. Eg the iris of the eye is usually around 12mm in diameter. I have compared that with the hole in the photo and to me it looks smaller than 9mm.

I would feel safe in saying it looks like a 5.54mm wound. Probably from a 5.54mmx39 standard steel core AK47 (edit - AK-74 I mean) round. Pistol rounds generally do not have steel cores and there would be a larger exit wound due to the deformation and fragmentation. The steel core rounds don't reliably fragment or tumble, particularly with shallow wounds of less than 100mm penetration, such as this. The entry and exit wounds are so small and neat I'm not sure how anyone could conclude it was made by a 9mm or 7.62mm pistol round which would normally have a soft lead core and would do greater damage.

Edited October 21, 2011 by PELHAM

[[asa]oden 0]

..Probably from a 5.54mmx39 standard steel core AK47 round..

Orly?

[eble 3]

Well on Australian TV, I was watching all the video as it came in last night, one NTC fighter described in quite some detail how they killed him.

They first showed him being driven round on the pickup truck as a trophy, they took him into town to show him off and a small group forced him away and put an end to it, probably for the best as he was being hit etc.

He was able to make normal conversation when first taken prisoner, but they kept beating him up until they finished him off.

[PELHAM 10]

ODEN;2041484']Orly?

Sorry mis-typed AK-74 lol

[roberthammer 582]

Sorry mis-typed AK-74 lol

Man you failed twice

AK74 have 5.45x39mm

[Tonci87 163]

I welcome that they captured Gaddafi, but I don´t think that its OK to treat someone like this. They should have arrested him! I don´t think Lybia is ready for Democracy

[ProfTournesol 956]

I welcome that they captured Gaddafi, but I don´t think that its OK to treat someone like this. They should have arrested him! I don´t think Lybia is ready for Democracy

I'm afraid this has nothing to do with being able to be a democracy or not, even though i doubt that they will be able to meet democracy compliances soon too.

Take liberated countries from Nazis after WW2 ending for example : lot's of fellow people having worked with Nazis were executed without any kind of trial, and those countries (including mine) were / are democracies. See how Mussolini was executed.

I guess those retaliations are unavoidable after the fall of a dictatorship, even if i don't agree with them.

Edited October 21, 2011 by ProfTournesol

[dale0404 5]

Personal opinion again.

He should have suffered more. Think about all the stuff that he was involved with and / or sanctioned.

Payback is a bitch!