[Sound] Echoes system from Battlefield 3

[Tonci87 163]

Guys just wait for JSRS 1.4

[dysta 10]

Guys just wait for JSRS 1.4

or ACSE.

[mrcash2009 0]

This thread as gone from "echos" thread title:

[sound] Echoes system from Battlefield 3

To sounds source, which isnt what it was about from what I can see.

So dynamics reflection/room reverb and 3d positioning would be welcomed. Dampened sounds and open reflective echo & trails are whats needed. You fire in a small enclosed room made of wood/empty of full of objects, a barn made of metals, you fire in a canyon, on a hill, below a hill ... all things reflect.

The rest seems to just be a debate of the source of the sound, I thought the OFP and this thread was a request about what happens "after" the sound has triggered, and how it trails and reflects the environment it was triggered in, even if that sound isnt what you like as the gun sound.

And hell yes this needs to be implemented, and optional in sound settings so systems than cannot handle dont have it and servers can turn it off too.

Then again if BIS dont want to spend time on it, I just hope there is a facility at least to let mods expand on it.

Edited October 4, 2011 by mrcash2009

[Tonci87 163]

Guys just wait for JSRS 1.4

or ACSE.

Or for JSRS Project Zero (will use ACSE)

[dysta 10]

Or for JSRS Project Zero (will use ACSE)

AND with DSS2, integrated with terrain and environment echos.

[mrcash2009 0]

Are these mods ready for Arma 3? Will they help BIS prep anything of this nature for Arma 3? Its about Arma3 ... last time I looked.

[DaveG 0]

Except BF3 being all about corridors has an environment that uses pre-recorded sounds since using echo and reverb would burn consoles alive (since EAX is only but a dream there, so an already extremely weak CPU would have to render these effects - unless they are stuffing the same CPU effect over every sound then maybe it does) - which as you understand is hard to do in a game that is all about open environments where sounds don't start and end with a few weapons and footsteps - since it won't just take too much time but make sounds in ArmA3 take gigabytes of space. Add to that that echoes and reverb are completely unrealistic in BF3 since as I've said toilets don't sound like concert halls IRL.

Now if an engine was to render echo and reverb with CPU (since ArmA3 won't support EAX) it would've been another thing. But even then I can't begin to imagine how many resources it will take.

How do you think EAX worked? It's basically programmable audio hardware effects like reverb, delay and various filters. If a game implemented EAX the developers have to program these effects and effect parameters themselves to achieve the enviromental effects like occlusion (which would mostly use a filter) etc. Or they would use the canned effects included in the API.

CPU's are god damned fast nowadays. All of this work can be done on CPU and take very little CPU time. In Ableton Live I can have tons of audio tracks running with multiple effects as well as soft synths running all at the same time and it barely touches the sides.

So, with that in mind how do you think BF3 is implementing these effects? Simple, the same way as they would have done if they used EAX only they've implemented all the effects in software. That's right, they're using basic samples and adding enviromental effects through software, extactly the same way as EAX worked.

And as for the consoles not being able to handle it? Well turns out they do it pretty easily. The sound system is almost the same as the PC version, maybe with less channels but the effects are all still there and of the same quality. I would wager that even the "general purpose" cpu in the ps3 is enough to handle the sound but I would not be surprised if it were implemented on one of the Cell's SPUs which would most likely be overkill in terms of processing power.

[NeuroFunker 11]

all i can say is, i do absolutely support general sound improvement in ARMA. From sounds itself, reverberation, to 3D sound placement.

There is really something that annoys me alot about Arma's sound engine - 3D sound! Especially in Multiplayer.

I and my team mate running nearby, he is to my left, starting to shooting at enemy, but instead sounds coming from centre speaker, not left side one. So it pretty annoys me, how i'm supposed to figure out, from which direction i've been shot?

I wish BIS sound engine programmer, would take a look at this. Maybe my creative extreme music soundcard is to bad for arma? And i have to get more costly card, to be able to enjoy real 3D sound? In various games using openAL sound engine, i've been experiencing really awesome 3D sound. I was able to hear, where exactly the enemies are. I do ever play Unreal Tournament 99 with fanmade OpenAL support, i even was been called a cheater, after i brought me my xfi xtreme music soundcard, and using 3DCSMS virtual surround sound and cheap 15€ Philips headphones. Cause i heard footsteps, 360° around me, and knew where the enemies are.

Also reverberation could be helpfull aswell.

Whats the difference in ArmA, when shots coming from the woods, open field or city? Nothing at all, it sounds all the same! I never been in real battlefield (thank god) But i have military shooting range in the fields nearby. You can clearly hear, if they are shooting in he fields, or woods. All thos echos and stuff. So don't you think, it would be helpful, to be able to hear WHERE exactly the shootings are coming from? It's not just an "eye candy" but also very important feature.

And BIS guys, could u perhaps take JareHead to your team pls? :) Since i've played arma with J.S.R.S. Mod, i just can't imagine playing with something, that sounds different, very lovely sound mod.

Ah yes, i've been playing BF3 Beta as well, sound is the only thing i liked in that game.

Edited October 10, 2011 by NeuroFunker

[Alex72 1]

I and my team mate running nearby, he is to my left, starting to shooting at enemy, but instead sounds coming from centre speaker, not left side one.

^^ I added a ticket for this when ARMA2 was released at the community issue tracker. It was deleted after a long time because it was said to have been fixed. However the problem still exists. In ArmA (1) you could hear where someone were even if they were close to you so i hope too this will be the case in ARMA3.

[NeuroFunker 11]

^^ I added a ticket for this when ARMA2 was released at the community issue tracker. It was deleted after a long time because it was said to have been fixed. However the problem still exists. In ArmA (1) you could hear where someone were even if they were close to you so i hope too this will be the case in ARMA3.

awww damn, so i have to deal with this then. I see...

:(

[Dwarden 1124]

How do you think EAX worked? It's basically programmable audio hardware effects like reverb, delay and various filters. If a game implemented EAX the developers have to program these effects and effect parameters themselves to achieve the enviromental effects like occlusion (which would mostly use a filter) etc. Or they would use the canned effects included in the API.

CPU's are god damned fast nowadays. All of this work can be done on CPU and take very little CPU time. In Ableton Live I can have tons of audio tracks running with multiple effects as well as soft synths running all at the same time and it barely touches the sides.

So, with that in mind how do you think BF3 is implementing these effects? Simple, the same way as they would have done if they used EAX only they've implemented all the effects in software. That's right, they're using basic samples and adding enviromental effects through software, extactly the same way as EAX worked.

And as for the consoles not being able to handle it? Well turns out they do it pretty easily. The sound system is almost the same as the PC version, maybe with less channels but the effects are all still there and of the same quality. I would wager that even the "general purpose" cpu in the ps3 is enough to handle the sound but I would not be surprised if it were implemented on one of the Cell's SPUs which would most likely be overkill in terms of processing power.

PS3 was supposed to use at some point nVIDIA SoundStorm 2 but it was dropped

(yet i assume as Sony had access to the technology, they might implemented needed routines to be handled by it's PPE better)

XBOX used nForce 1

XBOX360 similar to PS3 uses CPU processing but has lot of 'on chip' specialised processing bonus compared to average PC CPU

good read e.g.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3814/nextgen_audio_squareoff_.php?print=1

the problem here is that today soundcards onboard are really just audio processing codecs and nothing more

compared to that EMU chips (which Creative Labs use) are really great piece of silicon ... but also expensive ;(

the EAX and OpenAL sort of stagnated and died out by lack of 'ease to use'

CPU sound has still higher delay than hardware audio chip processing it

(that will be until CPUs gets these instructions and features them self)

tho the inclusion of memory controller inside CPU and fast CPU-PCIe I/O narrows the gap smaller with each generation

as we see already GPU moved into CPU (which can be used together with additional GPU in PCIe) so i hope audio processing units 'features' get on CPU too

plus this integrated GPU inside CPU could be used as computing unit for anything, audio, physics, w/e You need ...

so while upcoming generation of CPUs have great amount of multimedia instructions i think it's still not yet on the level of specialized audio processing unit ...

ofcourse from developers point of view it's easier to focus on software audio cause that's what majority users have

[NeuroFunker 11]

so, simple reverb effects, are not possible in arma? It must not be TOP quality, but just to make our brain know, aha i've been shot from the woods etc.

[Entelin 0]

BF3 is a bit too verbose, the sound doesn't get damped quite as much as it should, there is more echo than there is in reality. However, no question they did a good job on it overall.

I do agree that Arma needs VASTLY better sound than it has now, everything sounds really flat, unconnected, and lifeless, weapons sound like pea shooters. BF3's sound isn't terribly realistic, however neither is arma's.

[NacroxNicke 11]

It's funny how people think that the sounds that come from a tinny phone camera are how guns sounds in real life

If we wanted real life sounds, we should pump the sounds high into 140 dB and make a general template for all guns with small adjustements based on distance and localization of the gun, and with the loudness you shouldn't be capable of say "Oh, that's an AK74!" or "Oh, that's an M240!"

[dysta 10]

It's funny how people think that the sounds that come from a tinny phone camera are how guns sounds in real life

If we wanted real life sounds, we should pump the sounds high into 140 dB and make a general template for all guns with small adjustements based on distance and localization of the gun, and with the loudness you shouldn't be capable of say "Oh, that's an AK74!" or "Oh, that's an M240!"

To define the firearm noise, only a way is to hear the mechanism noise inside the firearm. Which is in a REALLY CLOSE distance. Other than that these are only echoly bangness.

[welcome to hell 23]

It's funny how people think that the sounds that come from a tinny phone camera are how guns sounds in real life

If we wanted real life sounds, we should pump the sounds high into 140 dB and make a general template for all guns with small adjustements based on distance and localization of the gun, and with the loudness you shouldn't be capable of say "Oh, that's an AK74!" or "Oh, that's an M240!"

Sound varies slightly, not only by the cartridge, but also by the length of the barrel, gas chamber construction and muzzle brake.

And from some distance away weapons do make a distinct sound.

But your right, from my machine-gun range experience, without any ear protection one gun sounds just like the one next to it. Loud and annoying.

[MADDOGdb7 10]

Just played the beta and the battlefield sounds amazing.

Every single sound has a realistic echo, firefights and tank battles sound amazing, sound is different in open/enclosed areas. Also it seems very realistic, similar to a lot of the combat videos I have seen.

I have no idea how the echo system works in Battlefield 3, but I would love to hear something similar in ArmA 3.

EDIT:

I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT BI, RIP THE SYSTEM FROM BF3. MERELY ATTEMPT CREATE THEIR OWN THAT DEMONSTRATES SIMILAR SOUND EFFECTS

Example of Echo/Reverb by the excellent HARCP mod:

Yeah, even though Operation Flashpoint Red River was god-awful and overall sucked ass. It had that distance echo and it sounded awesome.