Wall Street Occupation

[Beagle 684]

Spokesperson, if you are actually trying to say North Korea isn't as bad as what the media says, please pull your head out of your ass. I've talked to people who made it out of North Korea. What they were willing to talk about, what they described, was a living hell.

North Korea is not excactly a model for socialism either...but Sweden is...and that is often overlooked just because Sweden is still a constitutional monarchy.

[Tonci87 163]

I've seen tons of documentaries from all over the world showing the same thing. Police who are arresting people who are protesting peacefully.

Watch "into the fire" The Toronto G 20 summit. It is happening all around us. Social unrest is a sign that people are waking up, more and more, to what is happening worldwide and every Government is ready to smash every sign of opposition. We lost our freedom and Liberty. There is no such kind of thing. Maybe there's never been.

This is true

[Beagle 684]

Maybe the US can learn from, germany how to deal with protesters...pepper spray is for Noobs.

[ProfTournesol 956]

There are empty shops, queues in market economies as well.

Where ?

Despite the economic problems in the 80ies most people prefer socialism to capitalism in the USSR. Sure if you ask oligarchs like Putin, or others they will have different opinions, but do you share their multi-billion interests?

I wouldn't call Putin a democrat, for sure.

[Maio 293]

There is nothing bad with socialism per say as long as it's apllied in the sectors that matter, heatlthcare and education lower/upper.

Oh and btw spokesperson, the only people in Romania who want comunism back are those who knew somebody at the butcher shop or knew someone who was a party member :)

my 2 cents anyway

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well as long as the majority is happy enough with "bread and circuses" and/or "stick and carrots" - nothing will change.

Since how many years/decades people do vote for the lesser evil or have only one candidate to "vote" for? Who is a great politician and who got corrupted/obsessed by power?

Look around people have more important personal stuff todo and don't like to care or think about politics + the future of their real community.

[nodunit 397]

Maybe the US can learn from, germany how to deal with protesters...pepper spray is for Noobs.

How about this.

(and what a lovely demonstration they give us, thanks for showing us what it was really made for guys!) give them time, I'm sure if this persists then no doubt the big tools will be pulled out..no doubt at all, I can't wait to see this on the news where they have some expert showing non existant footage of the crowd asailing the officers.

But this won't change anything, the majority won't give a damn until you start closing down the fast food shops, you would not believe some of the things people do and say when you deny them fast food..not joking either.

Edited September 28, 2011 by NodUnit

[Spokesperson 0]

The real pitty for me personally is that all aroudn the world there are no real liberal parties to vote for...only neo market liberals....but no party seems to exist that stands for freedom at all...all we see is more regulation every day...and that not only USA...that's the whole world. Totalitarism is creeping back up, slowly but unstoppable...and it favors the people that hold the system intact...it has enough "soldiers" to keep it all as it is. the prefixes "Socialist", "Democratic", "Federal" are exchangable you can find them for all kind of systems of totalitarism.

Sometimes I really think we could have Kings and Emperors back and nothing would change at all

You know, there are no parties that represent all. Parties are interest-clubs and because of the nature of capitalism there are people who work and people who don't. You can't be for increased salaries and increased profits at the same time. This society isn't classless so you have to pick sides, do you want to defend your interests, your class, or those of those who own media, factories, politicians and so on?

Every state marks the existence of a dictatorship of one class over another. There is no such thing as democracy and freedom for all. You have to choose between freedom to exploit and freedom from exploitation. So, what's important is which class rules, and which class you yourself are part of. I prefer the democracy called proletarian dictatorship over the democracy for the rich - that's also called bourgeois dictatorship. I prefer socialism for all rather than socialism for the capitalists only.

Spokesperson, if you are actually trying to say North Korea isn't as bad as what the media says, please pull your head out of your ass. I've talked to people who made it out of North Korea. What they were willing to talk about, what they described, was a living hell.

Exile-North koreans are usually living in misery and get paid by giving interviews (of course by the principle that they get paid more if the story is more brutal). But I don't doubt that there is a little bit of truth in what they say. It was a living hell for them, of course, otherwise they wouldn't have deserted their country. But that doesn't mean that North Korea is a living hell for the common man. Counter-revolutionaries are dealt with, just like revolutionaries and counter-revolutionaries are dealt with in the US and other countries.

I personally believe that there is no possibility for a peacful powershift to take place. The current power structure of our world will not hesitate to kill you if you oppose their plans and if we don't fight back it will be too late.

Of course there isn't! There are no peaceful shifts of power, that's the meaning of it. The power never shifts in western "democracies", it's just a matter of appointing different representatives for the ruling capitalists. The parties are just different factions of the same capitalist backed party. If you don't have capital you can't organize people, create opinion, publish newspapers or anything at any scale of importance. But you are naturally free to do it (as long as it remains no threat to the current order).

Where ?

Everywhere.

[st_dux 26]

That's bullshit because there are no voluntary agreements between parties where one party depends on the other. Either you work for someone, at any conditions he seems fit, or you starve to death. Worth is the labor you put in into products to increase their value. You make sticks of wood into a chair. You produce ten chairs, but only get a couple in return. That isn't the worth of your labor, that is your wage. The worth of your labor are the full ten chairs minus the worth of the sticks.

Again the value is being determined by the market; you are just arbitrarily taking it out of the labor market and instead tying it to the market for chairs. But employers aren't bidding for chairs; they're bidding for employees. Why should someone who would work for less than the value of a chair not be allowed to do so? It is you who wish to restrict individual liberty, not the capitalist.

Furthermore, in your system of tying wages to the value of the products produced, how would you determine how to pay people who work in support positions, i.e., who aren't involved directly with the creation of the product? What do you pay the janitor who cleans up the chair factory or the salesperson who sells the chairs? Neither of them made any chairs at all, so I suppose the value of their labor, by your reasoning, is zero.

Slavery, feudalism, capitalism and socialism have nothing to do with human nature. They arise independently depending on the technologies present, and these technologies force structures in societies.

Explain to me how slavery arises in a world where there are no people. I don't doubt the impact that technology has on the creation of various systems, but to deny human nature as the root of human society is daft.

[Spokesperson 0]

The price is determined by the market, not the value. You can pay as much as you want for a couple of chairs, that doesn't change their value.

Employers aren't really bidding for employees. Employees are bidding for employers. On an average of course. That's why you see unemployment.

The capitalist is taking away things their employees produce, without working. The capitalists are completely superfluous, they are parasites. But of course they are needed in a capitalist society, but capitalism is not a requirement for production.

You're right, the value of their labor is zero. But that doesn't mean that they aren't needed. I'm not tying wages to the value of the products produced, but they have to be proportional. That is not the case today. Unproductive elements of society, the ones that are needed, would have to be paid for through taxes just like today or in a factory people would have to decide how to split the wages democratically. Every company is a dictatorship today that spans outside the work place. Capitalism is just another word for a plutocratic oligarchy. I see no freedom in that, apart from the that of the minority.

"Explain to me how slavery arises in a world where there are no people. I don't doubt the impact that technology has on the creation of various systems, but to deny human nature as the root of human society is daft. "

Where there are no people? That's faulty reasoning.

[Minutemen 10]

What do you know about the GDR? The german philosophy is Hegel and Marx, the germans are notorious socialists. Bismark, National Socialism, International Socialism and even the Westgerman "Republic" is a socialist state with forced federal healthcare and all that crap. There was never such thing as capitalism in West Germany. Imagine the EU Flag with the yellow stars would be red instead of blue, everyone would know how the wind blows.

They pay you less than what your labor is worth.

As russian you should know the russian joke: As long as they do as they would pay us, as long do so as we would work.

If they fire me, i work for some time for the next enterprise. As long as their is nothing as a dismissal protection or some similar socialist law which hurts the market and me as a potential employee. Pure capitalism is the most freedome you can gain and nearest thing to romanized anarchism possible.

Or i could even start my own bussiness if they would pay me so bad.

Where is the money ending up?

Central Banks, they which created it. And Central Banks, centralization of credit, is a point of the communist agenda, written in the communist manifesto.

Realy, this guy is hilarious. I mean, does he realy beliefe what hes saing? Always on double minded alice in wonderland trips. Sometimes i think we don't even need the secound amendment to protect us from communists. :D

And it must be a blast living in north korea.

Arg,, saw some footage a while ago, taken by japanese. Typical pictures from communism. Starving people, begging children, even the soldiers were underfed. Even NK is isolated, they wouldn't have such plagues in a free market. Even Cuba allowed free enterprise in this branch after they couldn't count on russian shipments anymore.

[nettrucker 142]

Most probably the only thing which could change things is a new french revolution. It always has been a class struggle between rich and poor. Between the ruling class and those who are ruled. The fact is . . . as long as people don't get active and hit the streets worldwide in peaceful demonstration we don't stand a chance in this struggle. We are going to loose. Posting info in the Internet is not enough. To achieve change people have to demonstrate all over the world in every major city. Together we stand . . . divided we fall. They have to hit the streets, otherwise nothing's going to change. Sad is most people are asleep or they don't want to see.

A must see Toronto G 20 summit

8YqU9lr9G-0&feature=related

Watch this documentary it is just another proof of the loss of liberty and freedom.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

North Korea is not excactly a model for socialism either...but Sweden is...and that is often overlooked just because Sweden is still a constitutional monarchy.

Sweden is certainly doing better than the US. Let's compare, shall we? :D

• We have normal to really fat women, they have normal to skinny women
  
• They have some of the safest roads in Europe, and are inching ever closer to 0 fatalities
  
• Their cost of living, at least for a college student, is about the same compared to here
  
• They have the fastest internet in the world, or close to it. (Can't forget the guy who set his grandmother up with something like 40GBps)
  
• The country in Sweden is utterly breathtaking. It's just awe-inspiring, not to mention almost 0 light pollution, the stars look amazing.
  
• Did I mention the beautiful women?
  
• They have reindeer. Some claim Sweden is Santa's summer home.
  

Edited September 28, 2011 by Darkhorse 1-6

[ryguy 10]

I think this pretty much shows what exactly is going on in New York right now. It's similar to the G20 summit protests that happen every year. People are certainly angry, but they have no idea what about or how to fix it.

The group’s lack of cohesion and its apparent wish to pantomime progressivism rather than practice it knowledgably is unsettling in the face of the challenges so many of its generation face — finding work, repaying student loans, figuring out ways to finish college when money has run out. But what were the chances that its members were going to receive the attention they so richly deserve carrying signs like “Even if the World Were to End Tomorrow I’d Still Plant a Tree Today�

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/nyregion/protesters-are-gunning-for-wall-street-with-faulty-aim.html?ref=occupywallstreet

I can hear "the man" talking now... "That's right... just keep protesting wearing your urban outfitters and using your macbook pro's, all is well..."

[nettrucker 142]

We would need politicians with integrity which are not corrupt and their only mandate is the well being of the nation they are running. Unfortunately this is Science Fiction.

[st_dux 26]

The price is determined by the market, not the value. You can pay as much as you want for a couple of chairs, that doesn't change their value.

If the price isn't an indication of value, what is? How else is value determined?

The capitalist is taking away things their employees produce, without working. The capitalists are completely superfluous, they are parasites. But of course they are needed in a capitalist society, but capitalism is not a requirement for production.

The capitalists have the capital. They own the means of production, and they are motivated to make those means of production as efficient as possible for their own benefit. This, in turn, benefits society as a whole. That's how capitalism works.

What you're suggesting is for the government to steal the capital away from capitalists and then arbitrarily divide it amongst the people in a way that you deem "fair." The problem with this is that "fair" is an abstract human concept that has never been the state of things in reality and never will be. This idealistic rebellion against reality leads only to gross inefficiency and stagnation. You like to think you would be spreading power equally to everyone, but actually all socialism does is concentrate it in one place, the state, the monopoly on violence.

[Spokesperson 0]

Price is an indication of value, but is not the same thing as value.

Value is determined by the average time it takes for society to complete one unit of a certain good. If there's perfect competition the price will equal the value, but there is no perfect competition.

The capitalists have the capital. They own the means of production, and they are motivated to make those means of production as efficient as possible for their own benefit. This, in turn, benefits society as a whole. That's how capitalism works.

Yes, and how do you get capital? By paying your workers less than the values their labor produces. You make them make ten chairs and take some for yourself as profit. The workers don't need that, they can work on perfectly well without capitalists, and that's why capitalists are parasites.

What you're suggesting is for the government to steal the capital away from capitalists and then arbitrarily divide it amongst the people in a way that you deem "fair." The problem with this is that "fair" is an abstract human concept that has never been the state of things in reality and never will be. This idealistic rebellion against reality leads only to gross inefficiency and stagnation. You like to think you would be spreading power equally to everyone, but actually all socialism does is concentrate it in one place, the state, the monopoly on violence.

Steal away capital? Taking money from other people is theft, and that's what the capitalists do. By taking over the means of production and putting them under democratic rule you put an end to theft. It's a pre-requisite for democracy. In every society, the class that owns the means of production also has the political power.

[dm 9]

And it must be a blast living in north korea.

It seems so. But everything that you read in South Korean news must be true, especially if it comes from Pentagon! You seem to trust news when it comes to that kind of political propaganda, but would you trust FOX too? Do you go to the enemies of someone to get a good picture about that person?

Watch Vice Guide to NK

Not from the Pentagon, not from South Korea, just some independent dudes going to NK.

(Tho I guess it explains a lot about why you think the way you do, when you get subjected to that much BS - as is common under communism - you cant help but be brainwashed...)

Edited September 29, 2011 by DM

[solidsnake2384 10]

I watched that awhile ago and was going to mention that but was too lazy. Very good documentary.

[Spokesperson 0]

There are documentaries supporting every side, and in order to talk about North Korea you have to understand their situation. People who don't know anything about history, economics or politics have a hard time assessing the country.

[Macadam Cow 1]

To achieve change people have to demonstrate all over the world in every major city. Together we stand . . . divided we fall

I remember pretty well, back in 2003, there were several protests in the streets of London and Madrid (or Barcelona ?) against the war iraq (before the invasion).

I remember those 2 because of the large numbers of protesters : more than 1 million.

What was the result ? Both UK and Spain send their men to Iraq...

If there's such a denial of your own citizens willingness I can only see 2 solutions :

a civil war

a global strike.

They just laugh at us when we're protesting. They see it as a good way to advertise the new toys they got for their police forces.

But if tomorrow we all stop working or we all stop paying our taxes (their salaries!) I'm not sure they'll laugh for long...

But as you said it has to be an united/collective action.

We would need politicians with integrity which are not corrupt and their only mandate is the well being of the nation they are running. Unfortunately this is Science Fiction.

I think the real problem is that being a politician is a job. It shouldn't !

Politicians should work just like you and me AND work as politicians.

How come someone who has never studied law is in charge of the ministry of justice ?

How come someone who never drove a bus is in charge of the public transport ?

How could they have the slightest idea of what they're talking about, of the consequences of their policies if they just don't know anything about it ?

I see it everyday in my job. I'm a cook and I have to follow a lot of strict rules (hygiene, "cold chain",...).

I can say for sure there isn't a single restaurant in the world who's following all of them. It's simply impossible.

Those rules were made by scientists, doctors,...not by cooks or anyone who has worked in a professional kitchen.

Some of them are unpractical, some are senseless, some would require to destroy the whole place and build it again,...

And guess what ? When do you think they're coming to check if you follow those rules ?

Do you think they'll come a tuesday afternoon when you only have a few customers ?

Hell no, they will patiently wait for the saturday evening, the busiest day of the week for us...

And when they're here everything else has to stop. They just don't give a flying fuck you still have 60 customers who are waiting for their food.

There's no inbetween with them, you follow the rules or you don't.

And that's what pisses me off, someone who has never worked in a kitchen comes to me and say : "now, you have to do this like this and that like that. I don't care about the problem it will cause, the rule is the rule..."

Edited September 29, 2011 by Macadam Cow

[dm 9]

People who don't know anything about history, economics or politics have a hard time assessing the country.

So, what you're saying here is:

"Because the country has been screwed up throughout history, is a-ok for it to be screwed up now!"

right?

Because that makes it sooooo much better....

---------- Post added at 16:20 ---------- Previous post was at 16:17 ----------

I remember pretty well, back in 2003, there were several protests in the streets of London

I remember those 2 because of the large numbers of protesters : more than 1 million.

What was the result ? Both UK and Spain send their men to Iraq...

If there's such a denial of your own citizens willingness

UK population: ~60 million

Protest turnout: ~1 million

doing the math, the protest represents ~1.6% of the population, hardly "the will of the people"

As with most things, you'll find the vast majority either don't know or just don't care one way or the other. Sadly.

[dmarkwick 261]

UK population: ~60 million

Protest turnout: ~1 million

doing the math, the protest represents ~1.6% of the population, hardly "the will of the people"

As with most things, you'll find the vast majority either don't know or just don't care one way or the other. Sadly.

1 million people is a massive turnout. Your assessment would indicate that only a turnout of > 30 million people would indicate the will of the people. Fact is, there is no democracy, anywhere. Anywhere in the world. What we DO have is a dictatorship with a 4 year option. And a poor option it usually is too.

[dm 9]

Yeah, playing devils advocate in this case.

[Macadam Cow 1]

[placeholder]

:D

Edited September 29, 2011 by Macadam Cow