Flight dynamics

[almdudler 10]

Gents, my compliments for the game idea. It covers a segment that fsx hasn't, the interaction with ground life/extra vehicular first person experience and multiplayer combined. As part of the original flashpoint game, flying choppers in combination with ground troops activities was and is the top unbeatable feature of this genre. The last 2 releases (arma n stuff) were quite a disappointment against its predecessor, but here we, sorry you, have a chance to win ground. Despite its civilian character i assume you will be tracking a way or another to link it again with what we also love, warsims. Hey, landing a chopper into a hot zone, does it get any better?

But this ain't what i am trying to thread here. My concern for the moment is the degree of realism and flight control support. Flight model and aerodynamics must achieve the level of microsoft's fsx at minimum, otherwise the "simmers" will take it down as kiddy archade with maybe some nice scenery. The full spectrum of flight controls should be supported. That includes joystick, pedals and thrust, like a common logitech G940 set. Allow easy levels for beginners if you like, but do not, please do not forget the ones appreciating realism (huge community compared to beginners). When i saw your trailer, my deepest sorrows arised, as i havn't seen any pedals in action. i neither saw any tutorials on Flight Dynamics, Gear Control or Cockpit Management. The weak point of bohemia has unfortunately always been realism and A.I. (remembering those extra stupid soldiers in Flashpoint making me banging my PC-screen)

i hope this is going to end some day for better. The Seattle scenery and some interaction scripts won't make the game.

I beg you, this game can bring plenty of fun hours to our all homes if you don't mess up or find yourselves too great without checkin back. Trust your sence for a critical market segment which you enter. Many flight simmers will try a side step to your game, don't disappoint them. Provide them what they already know and expect, plus extradense sceneries, and on top of it all, extravehicular features which i know you will offer in its full spectrum and experience from Flashpoint.

Trying to be your first customer, all i expect is to be able to plug this game against the logitech gear i mentioned, pedals working, stick working, collelctive thrust working the way it should from time zero, start the engine by checklist, and have a quite realistic and difficult take off with crosswind and downwash around me while some some passenger claps on my shoulder because he doesn't feel well.

I assume you have pilots in your consulting team. Glad. Hope dies last.

Thanks for listening.

[zoog 18]

Welcome Almdudler! :)

Despite its civilian character i assume you will be tracking a way or another to link it again with what we also love, warsims. Hey, landing a chopper into a hot zone, does it get any better?

There will be military themed missions in the game. Quote: "Although we’re primarily a civil-based chopper game, we also feature military variants of each of our three classes of helicopter, with missions to support them!"

http://takeonthegame.com/take-on-south-asia/#more-637

When i saw your trailer, my deepest sorrows arised, as i havn't seen any pedals in action. i neither saw any tutorials on Flight Dynamics, Gear Control or Cockpit Management.

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting your questions right? Pedal animation is in game. The cockpit has clickable buttons and working gauges. I've been playing with my Saitek X52 and CH Pro Pedals without any problems. It also worked immediately with the Logitech 3D Pro. There will be tutorials (see quote below), but they're not putting that in one of the first trailers of the game :)

Training

- Simple Flight – If you know next to nothing about helicopters, but just want to get flying, this is the training mission for you, presenting players with some handy hints along the way.

- Start Up & Shut Down – We know that just starting up the helicopter can be a challenge, so we’ve included our fully-voiced tutorial, which helps to show you how to do just that.

- Basic Manoeuvres – Learn the basics of getting your chopper from A to B, by flying though a number of check-point courses, which introduce the principles of level-flight, banking, changing altitude, and more!

See also: http://takeonthegame.com/full/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/bg.jpg and http://takeonthegame.com/take-on-pre-order-beta/

[EagleEye-GER- 0]

The devs are scared when reading topic names like: Flight dynamics :D

Flight model and aerodynamics must achieve the level of microsoft's fsx at minimum

Pls no! Stock FSX isn`t known for having believable helicopter FM.

[almdudler 10]

Hi Zoog,

Great Reply you provided, covering quite all my questions. Thank you so much for the effort. I have a clearer picture of what to expect now.

Not sure whether you belong to the dev team, it is hard to identify by speaking on forums. Nevertheless, i would like to repeat on my thread core topic "aerodynamics" after looking at all the videos. My assumption is now that we can expect Flashpoint level, which is rather on the archade side and rather not reality-like. I am not validating, just recognizing. Kind of a pitty, i was hoping bohemia would invest more into physics during the last 10 years, but not much of a progress to see. I am fully aware that flight physics are hard to code, and not feasable by a simple motion capture equipment.

i will be curiosly tracking previews against how missions based on flight skills will come along and whether it is truly worth a buy. The Arma-elements like the action-menu is - sorry to say that - definetly a killer.

Thanks again for all your information.

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

Eagle Eye,

Agree partly. My statement for bohemia was "FSX at minimum".

In fact you can operate FSX close to real by the right tweaks and equipment, and the right paid add-ons. But first of all it's the equipment and settings.

From my perspective. I do not quote public voices.

Enjoy your PPL. Wish you all the luck for the JAR-/DLR-tests:)

[max power 21]

The community preview flight model seems much more advanced than anything BIS has done before.

[zoog 18]

Great Reply you provided, covering quite all my questions. Thank you so much for the effort. I have a clearer picture of what to expect now.

Glad I could help :) And no, I'm not part of the dev team. Just enthusiastic about this project ;)

I think one very important thing you have to keep in mind, assuming you are not in the position to play the Community Preview, is that user posted videos etcetera are based on the Community Preview. The Community Preview is in essence the new advanced flight model dumped in the current arma universe. So it's just the helicopter, not the customized Virtual Reality engine which will be (as far as I know) used for the final version of TKOH. For example, TKOH will have volumetric clouds, turbulence effects when you enter those clouds etc, but we can only experience this once the beta pre-order or full version is released, because the Community Preview just uses the assets of Arma 2. On top of that, many videos are recorded with easy difficulty and auto-trim functions enabled. This way it almost looks as flying in any arma game, which is definitely not true with TKOH.

As far as aerodynamics go, stuff like the rotor-in-ground effect is simulated. I haven't had any vortex ring state yet when descending very fast while hovering. But of course it's still in beta testing stage and feedback is gathered and implemented.

[almdudler 10]

zoog, you definetly encourage me.

But for an explanation: before arma was released i invested a lot of discussions to direct the attention of our csech friends onto some key issues, and i had the feeling that they listen. Then they turned away to military contracts for aprx. 5 years and left us gamers some Arma, which made me angry as it was way below expectations and came with many reverses (from good to worse). i played it 3 times and then scrapped it. Flashpoint i played a thousand times. They probably use my and others purchase of Arma to claim top selling quotes like with Flashpoint, but they didn't see many of us throwing this sequential off our harddrives. There is no money back thing, otherwise i would have claimed. And yes, all true and i am serious.

Such developers don't change over night, they have a pattern and a phylosophy which turns directly into their products. Logics tells me that this will continue, saying, they may take little steps forward, but not a leap.

If you can spend some bugs on chartering a heli flight at your local airport, check for special rates at a flight school, an instructor taking you up as a potential student, and check out in detail what the big difference is to what you believe having seen on community specials or elsewhere.

yes, i sound pessimistic, but in fact it is an attitude of anticipation and demand for better performance. They shouldn't buy our minds by highres terrain and glammer heli-surfaces.

The cloud techniques are as old as flight sims exist, so are turbulence effects, don't get layed by that easy stuff. Focus on the hard stuff, where you can pick on them:) E.G. hard coded aerodynamics.

Zoog, have you ever tried FSX? how would you describe the difference to TKOH?

[bobocz 10]

It will sound rude from me, but what you Almdudler want to say us, shortly, you are saying that FSX RULES! and ARMA/TKOH SUX.

And one months before game launch and only from one video, you are saying what's wrong with game, even if you didn't try it. Sound you want the game fail and then you can say I told you so. I know, It is a little bit of an exaggeration.

Even I don't know If i will like game. Maybe will fail, but from community preview I know that flight model is enjoyable and for me(noob) is quite challenging.

What I had problem with MS FS2004/ FSX10 that vanilla game is "boring like hell". I'm not saying that FSX is not grate simulator and superior with many areas, but is suit for enthusiast. This is what TKOH want to change that you will have reason for flying.

Sorry but now you are late with changing anything, game is almost done. Judge game after is released.

[zoog 18]

The cloud techniques are as old as flight sims exist, so are turbulence effects, don't get layed by that easy stuff. Focus on the hard stuff, where you can pick on them:) E.G. hard coded aerodynamics.

Well Almdudler, I think it's all about what every individual expects from this simulator. I expect it to be a real nice experience. Why? Because BIS is (or should) be capable of delivering us a combination of advanced flight dynamics and a more detailed/living world where you can get out of the chopper etc. Combine this with civilian and military missions tied into the armaverse and the new flight models being available in ArmA 3 (some dev mentioned that) we got a very nice future ahead of us.

I don't expect TKOH to replace all the other well established franchises. And I don't think that is their aim at all. First and foremost it's their first steps into the flight simming world, hence the name Bohemia Interactive's take on helicopters. Secondly they have the opportunity, as mentioned above, to combine advanced flight dynamics with a very detailed world all tied into the armaverse. I mean, the level of detail, sophistication and the size of the landmass of for example DCS: Black Shark is mind blowing. But it always feels empty, a ghost like world. There's no living soul, except you're enemy targets in the middle of nowhere. Blegh.

I don't expect TKOH to be simulating everything. I think that's too ambitious for a developer who just ventured into this new market. I love Arma and I love flying helicopters (but I hate the simple flight model in current Arma games). So for me this is going to be the best of both worlds. For you it might not be very interesting or maybe it will. If you're really a realism nut, and for example want the exact replica of the helicopters, this is already going to be a problem. Because they cannot/are not allowed to make them identical to the real life counterparts (as far as I know).

Zoog, have you ever tried FSX? how would you describe the difference to TKOH?

Nope, I've only played DCS: Black Shark. And with the Community Preview it would be unfair to compare, because it doesn't have everything that will be available in the full game. I've only seen videos of FSX with Helicopters, no clue how detailed their flight models for heli's actually are?

Edited September 22, 2011 by zoog

[EagleEye-GER- 0]

Eagle Eye,

Agree partly. My statement for bohemia was "FSX at minimum".

In fact you can operate FSX close to real by the right tweaks and equipment, and the right paid add-ons. But first of all it's the equipment and settings.

From my perspective. I do not quote public voices.

Enjoy your PPL. Wish you all the luck for the JAR-/DLR-tests:)

I hear you. Yes, with payware (i.e. Dodo and VRS Superbug) FSX comes closer. Thanks for wish me good luck with my PPL.:)

zoog you made an excelent post. Though, it`s really sad to jump from one game/sim to another because none of them can deliver all aspects. So ToH will have these great environments, people interaction and all the other awesome stuff and it would be a pity if the heli FM is not that what a sim enthusiast would expect.

So we have to wait until the beta/full game arrives to draw conclusions. The cargo transport and sling loads is another aspect we have not heard that much from. Will it dynamically react on the forces i.e. swinging on the rope and so on?

[almdudler 10]

Eagle Eye's conclusion/summary sounds just perfect and in combination with zoog's contribution tells we are all in some way agreeing, despite my pessimistic approach. i certainly don't want it to fail BoboCZ, it's the other way round. i just hate to wait for another 45 years until realism has found its way to our PC's. So, let's cross fingers and hope for a positive surprise (doesn't sound like me.:j:). 30 days to go.

and: i won't say "i was right", i promise.

Maybe "you will see".:D

[WarriorM4 10]

The last community preview is far from perfect.The flight model is still horrible.I hope its improved a great deal before release.If this is the state it will be in at release I will have to pass on a purchase.I think the flight model is very important.Since this will be considered a "simulator" it needs to be at the top of the list.

I fly FSX to and the dodosim bell 206 for FSX has a great flight model.Some should try that before judging FSX.

Edited September 28, 2011 by WarriorM4

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

HAHA ! stop ! the flight model is not horrible !

[_YoYo_ 10]

I fly FSX ... has a great flight model.

Are You joking? FS series is dedicated for airplanes in this subjects is ok (but not the best). FM wasnt or isnt in FS2004 and FSX (here in FS series is better than before) dedicated for copters. Without some changes of realistic, tune up of FM, addons default model isnt right for copters. FM is one of most important things for helicopter. Show me in FSX some things:

- influance of IGE (ground) in FS series for dynamic flight model

- differences between of IGE and OGE

- show me influance of buildings for dynamic flight model

- show me air lift for dynamic flight model if You flying near the ground

- show me air lift for dynamic flight model if You want to land/take off

- where is influance of wind if You want to turn after start (in the same direction or opposed)

- if You have a cargo, any differences between this in FSX (example: missions with carrying trees)

and many more.

So dont talk about FM like in FSX. Sure FSX is more realistic with clickable panels in virtual cocpits but about FM? No, its mistake, ToH represents best FM in heli sim till now, without any discussion.

Edited September 29, 2011 by _YoYo_

[EagleEye-GER- 0]

I fly FSX to and the dodosim bell 206 for FSX has a great flight model.Some should try that before judging FSX.

When I wrote about FSX I´meant allways stock FM. Sure the Dodosim is a class of it`s own, so VRS Superbug is. AFAIK both are using external FM calculations which are feed to FSX via FSUIPC.

For me, DCS:BS is the Top of helicopter sims currently. It have the right FM(proved not only by pilots of the Kamov Company), you have cascading systems effects, clickable cockpit and a unique damage model.

No one said that ToHs FM is perfect in its`s current state? From where do you have that statement? If you look in the CP thread you will clearly see that we have several things which are not done right yet.

Edited September 29, 2011 by EagleEye[GER]

[_michal 10]

Are You joking? FS series is dedicated for airplanes in this subjects is ok (but not the best). FM wasnt or isnt in FS2004 and FSX (here in FS series is better than before) dedicated for copters. Without some changes of realistic, tune up of FM, addons default model isnt right for copters. FM is one of most important things for helicopter. Show me in FSX some things:

- influance of IGE (ground) in FS series for dynamic flight model

- differences between of IGE and OGE

- show me influance of buildings for dynamic flight model

- show me air lift for dynamic flight model if You flying near the ground

- show me air lift for dynamic flight model if You want to land/take off

- where is influance of wind if You want to turn after start (in the same direction or opposed)

- if You have a cargo, any differences between this in FSX (example: missions with carrying trees)

and many more.

So dont talk about FM like in FSX. Sure FSX is more realistic with clickable panels in virtual cocpits but about FM? No, its mistake, ToH represents best FM in heli sim till now, without any discussion.

He was talking about Dodosim 206, not stock 206. Dodosim 206 doesn't use FSX flight dynamics, but it's own.

However I think FM in TKOH is nice.

[zoog 18]

The last community preview is far from perfect.The flight model is still horrible.I hope its improved a great deal before release.If this is the state it will be in at release I will have to pass on a purchase.I think the flight model is very important.Since this will be considered a "simulator" it needs to be at the top of the list.

Maybe make a few suggestions for a better flight model? Things you don't like and should be different etc..

[EMann 10]

The last community preview is far from perfect.The flight model is still horrible.

'Horrible' really? i would say in it's current form it's LEAPS & BOUNDS in the right direction!.. as for 'perfection' i don't know what that is? and i don't think your going to find it in TOH when no specific real world helicopter type is being simulated.

Personally i quite like Bohemia's take on the FM for helicopter's, i'm not a RL heli pilot so i don't have a objective opinion when it comes to realistic comparisons, so i won't even go there, regardless of how many sim titles i have experience in!

What i would hate to see is carbon copies of any FM's used previously, why would you? this is a BIS creation so i'm leaving my final verdict for 27th October.:)

The good news is that the RPS review laid to rest some of my fears and confirmed the wake-up call to other developers to go back to the drawing board and work on improving the immersion factor among other things.

[ocramweb 0]

Still few big troubles in some situations in flight dynamics.That should be looked after.

- The heli banking when pulling collective.

- The ground effect far too strong . try a precise landing with no hover on top of an object like a trailer or else.

- The heli not going down collective full down,..unless you wait 1 statut mile.

_ autorotations

... at least for the most annoying ones

[_YoYo_ 10]

Still few big troubles in some situations in flight dynamics.That should be looked after.

- The heli banking when pulling collective.

- The ground effect far too strong . try a precise landing with no hover on top of an object like a trailer or else.

- The heli not going down collective full down,..unless you wait 1 statut mile.

_ autorotations

... at least for the most annoying ones

1/ try to use manual trim. Banking can be cause of the wind. I always used manual trim and it helps a lot.

2/ a little right, its challenging too mutch but with precision joystick (with good resolution) its possible for sure, worse to do long hover without auto hover (I dislike facilitation), but its need a practice = colective, pedals, joystic

3/ no understand

[ocramweb 0]

Thanks.

1-I am really talking of what I think as a bug here, can be worth as putting the heli up to 45 degree bank. To see it better is to put the heli into a tail rotor failure and use the collective for direction.

2-It is fine on even surfaces, even on long hover, but as soon as you move over an object like a flat train wagon for example the heli will even go upward a lot (why I said too strong)

3-yet another bug that occurs here and there, the heli is sinking no more than 300 or more feets per minutes, collective full down.

1 and 3 happens but not always.

I could add that there is no sudden yaw, once you switch off the engine in flight, the level of torque needed to lift the heli ... etc but those are less important to me.

ToH is going the good way for sure, but some can be very annoying imo, if it stays in the current state. waiting for beta to test in other place than OA engine

Edited October 2, 2011 by ocramweb

[LeftSkidLow 1]

Your issues #2, and #3 are already submitted to bug tracker. You can up-vote them here http://dev-heaven.net/projects/toh-cit/issues?set_filter=1&tracker_id=1

Edit: I see you already found them....

[ocramweb 0]

Sure did, I asked for them to be put up there, as many of us do not, there is too little activities in the CIT imo,

those "troubles" are more detailed in http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=122626&page=4

So lets go vote on what you think is important or found by yourself as well so the Devs have an easier insight than to read the forum upside down