"Tab" targeting issues

[NoRailgunner 0]

What if there are missiles which can be manually guided but also can lock on target or stay locked on current target if the connection is lost? Damn technology and progress.... :p;)

[.kju 3245]

@ DM

What about T34, T55, T72, LAV25, BMP2, AH1Z, Mi24, etc?

[dm 9]

@ DM

What about T34, T55, T72, LAV25, BMP2, AH1Z, Mi24, etc?

AH1Z/Mi24 should have manually guided missiles (as I said), except where the AH-1Z is equipped with radar hellfires and is pairing with say a Longbow Apache providing targeting data via datalink.

The rest shouldn't have radars to start with, but that's about sensors, not about guidance.

[.kju 3245]

Thanks

Well the topic initial was about radar behavior.

In any case I don't see BI change anything anyway - unfortunately.

Especially if a change would break gameplay vs AI (SP).

[On_Sabbatical 11]

when you have a AI gunner,and then you press TAB to lock a target that means that AI is doing that guiding stuff for you.

Do you think it's realistic to switch to gunner seat in an apache to guide a missile and then go back to pilot's seat ?

Use bombs if you dont like tab,they re even more effective,go to editor place some warfare buildings aand train on bombing them ...

[.kju 3245]

My take is that both in terms of realism and gameplay:

1. Vehicles and their respective position (gunner/commander) should have radar that have it in real life too.

Effectively this means most tanks don't, most choppers don't.

Most that have are limited to gunner and/or commander.

2. That friend-foe radar recognition should be dropped or reduced a lot.

3. Lock beyond viewdistance should not be 100% precise (for most vehicles at least).

4. Should be limited to manual guidance where realistic/appropriate.

5. As driver/pilot one should have a cursor again to be able to assign targets to AI effectively.

6. It should not be possible to lock infantry units at all.

7. Adjust AI to work along the lines of spotting units by eye/optics.

---

To me personally it is NOT about what I like.

To me it is about what improves gameplay both in PvP and vs AI.

Sounds sensible, no?

[NoRailgunner 0]

PvPscene still living in the 60's or 70's? ;)

More and more vehicles are + will be equipped with modern battlefield systems that can share information about current positions of friendly, unknown and enemy forces. There are even portable IFF devices which work on vehicles and soldiers. For me it looks like you want to dump the gameplay down to eyesight/CQB combat + manual missile guidance only. :confused:

Better ask BIS to make a better research and proper implementation of current/future mil systems/devices. It would be imo better + more immersive if there are working displays/switches/lever/handgear etc inside vehicles and aircrafts. Of course not every little switch or button - only important ones. :)

[sickboy 13]

Many of the weapons are beam riders or otherwise require manual control.

There are very few fire and forget missiles in the vehicles depicted by BIS, afaik only the Longbow hellfires, I think the russians have an equilevant as well, and the AA missiles and Javelin.

Perhaps NoRailgunner is living in the future, where we're talking about ArmA3 and "Future weapons" ;)

[.kju 3245]

"immersive" :D for forum guys yes - for players not.

In case you didn't notice NoRailgunner this thread is about A2/OA/CO - NOT A3.

Most equipment and vehicles do not have the capabilities - at best US/USMC/RUS.

But even there not every unit/vehicle. For sure not for CDF/GUER/TK.

[humvee28 10]

I didn´t liked this "TAB-Target" thing from the Start. ACE&Mando Missiles are my Alternative. :)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Ahh, the nerds and their thoughts about realism, fiction and how games ment to be played.... :p:D

Just another thought:

CDF/GUER/TK could have been made or bought upgraded/modernized variants of certain (weapon) systems, no? Or is it somewhere defined which faction should make progress/developments and which not? ;)

[sickboy 13]

I'd rather call "Every weapon/vehicle in game should have magic auto lock and fire and forget" Fiction :D

Regardless of authenticity, it's a gameplay problem too, but I think it has been explained often enough now.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Isn't TABing a well known (hated) BIS "milsim feature" or "trademark" since 2001? Sure it will be missed in A3! :biggrin_o:

[sickboy 13]

Isn't TABing a well known (hated) BIS "milsim feature" or "trademark" since 2001? Sure it will be missed in A3! :biggrin_o:

No, it has become increasing problem since A2 I believe, changes since OFP/A1, for the worse.

[kotov12345 10]

when you have a AI gunner,and then you press TAB to lock a target that means that AI is doing that guiding stuff for you.

when you have ai gunner mean YOU CAN USE GUIDED ROCKETS ONLY AS FFARS in MP GAMES but there is manual fire mod should be removed for veterans as well.

In even you wann kill enemy tanks like Rocky you need find HUMAN GUNNER to fly with you - that why it called mp games.And it is only offer for veteran mod.

For 15 years old kids available cadet mod with all still same settings.

---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------

and sorry again

in first ofp it wasnt problem because view distance was really low 1.2km or 1.5 in mp games.

If you lock tank you have to come closer than 1.2km to kill it.

Same time you you drive tank you can see chopper on map.when he get closer you can jump out and kill chopper with aa because probability of hit was nearly 1,same as probability of chopper hit tank with at.

Normally in first ofp I carry 2 AA rockets and give crew AA rocket as well so even ah64 who survive 2 aa have low chance to survive so was game - you lost tank or 2 or 3 and enemy lost chopper who come closer than some point.

Now you been locked from 4km and die - even you lock chopper and even you fire 3-4 aa all rockets missed anyway.

[Beagle 684]

Many of the weapons are beam riders or otherwise require manual control.

There are very few fire and forget missiles in the vehicles depicted by BIS, afaik only the Longbow hellfires, I think the russians have an equilevant as well, and the AA missiles and Javelin.

Perhaps NoRailgunner is living in the future, where we're talking about ArmA3 and "Future weapons" ;)

Longbow is fire and forget system, but the missles itself is not Fire and forget by itself. Even the very lates AGM-114L Hellfire II still needs the radar reflection from the langbow radar. It has no guidance of its own by an active seeker.

It resembles more the AIM-7M than a AIM-120B.

[max power 21]

I thought it had inertial navigation that would allow it to find a point in space in the absence of a radar return.

[Rusvolk 10]

Yeah like you dont even need to aim to get an instant lock with the Metis,Dragon,TOW.

Just pull out your launcher, aim randomly any were near enemy armor and youve got a kill, also im experiencing wierd issues were TAB lock, playing as either KA-52,MI-24V or allmost any other heli, doesnt lock on to idle (not moving) enemy cars.

[kotov12345 10]

also im experiencing wierd issues were TAB lock, playing as either KA-52,MI-24V or allmost any other heli, doesnt lock on to idle (not moving) enemy cars.

it comprise idea.Was removed lock from white targets(idle). Next fix should allow you move turret with engine off and stay idle as well.

[Beagle 684]

I thought it had inertial navigation that would allow it to find a point in space in the absence of a radar return.

That's just going straight, but it can't follow a manouvering target that way.

[max power 21]

That's just going straight, but it can't follow a manouvering target that way.

Yes, agreed... that's what I was getting at when I said, 'point in space'. I'd imagine that targets situated behind screens of air defences would be the stationary ones.

[dr. hladik 231]

Possible changes for TKOH/A3

1. countermeasures are too effective

- both weapon and ammo have "cmImmunity" parameter which defines how easily CM can confuse them -> data problem (you can suggest better values, but I'm sure if anybody here will time to change them for next patch)

2. radar - incoming missile detection is too fast

- I can try to add some delay but I'm not sure if this will really help; changing cmImmunity should help more

3. stinger/igla are too weak

- data problem (you can ...)

4. Auto Guided AT for everything

- data problem (you can ...)

5. javelin/metis automatical Locking

- I'd like to indroduce some "locking type" parameter so you can say if automatic/RBM only/ RMB+TAB locking should be present (I guess all rocket launchers should use only RMB for locking)

6. manually guided missiles

- parameter that locked missile behaves like not-locked TOW (controled by cusros) can be added -> Lock icon will be only visual help. But this will basicaly affect only human gunner.

7. fire and DO NOT forget

- I'd like to add this, however there is a problem with learning our AI it to keep target locked(and not to fly over it.

8. Tab-fire Tab-fire (WITH GUNNER != PILOT)

- TAB will not be removed, this is just a command to AI gunner to find next target

-- I can disable TAB if (AI) gunner is not present

- manualy guided missiles

-- will not help much since AI gunner will do all the guiding work for you (but you will miss if gunner is not present)

- TAB locks unknown(yellow) units

-- what is better? All unknown units or none (frienly units are usually know)?

- AI gunner is too good when searching for next target/keeping target locked

-- true, should be tweaked

9. Tab-fire Tab-fire (WITH GUNNER == PILOT)

10. Tab-fire Tab-fire (player is GUNNER)

- might be possible to allow only RMB locking (see 5.)

[kotov12345 10]

Possible changes for TKOH/A3

Sad that not for arma2 but anyway.

This is so many problems.

All my ideas for mp game/vet mod.

1.Countermeasures - works good and don't need to remove them.But

From my observation in real MP match need about 4 rockets to damage aircraft - but not to destroy.It depends on map.When we play AAS maps combat aircraft was not big problem to hit with aa.But warfare maps is absolutely impossible.Sometimes needed launch about 10-15 rocket to hit once.

So I'd rather decrease probability of GM (guided missile) to hit moving armor to 0.1-0.2 on highest speed.I assume that can be implemented much easier.

2.Gunner in aircraft.

Will be logical to remove TAB to Lock for ground target at all.Or if you prefer use it as command remove auto guidance for missile.

But I'd keep it for Air targets within logical angle or green round as present now.But to make it workable you need to see cursor which is off in vet mod.

Also will be useful and realistic to have ability move mouse over radar and lock them directly on dots.

Friend foe recognition currently available for air targets only.

3.Locking of not lockable ground weapons.

Metis ,reflex,invar,tow and other laser and wire missile need be working as

manual fire - rocket heading to cursor.

4.Javelin and other IR lock weapons have many restrictions and will be nice to see them in game.Honestly I NEVER SAW on video if someone use them on moving targets.If you look carefully army uses them against static targets only.

6.Smaw have maximum range 600m and if you wanna keep current as in game range please make fly not as sniper rifle bullet.Is too accurate.

7.Lock in tanks - If you wan keep as now I'd rather restrict it with optical distance.Drawing distance for armor is 2km (someone told me is half of view distance?)- so will be logical to restrict TAB/radar abilities to 2km.Also in documents regarding gulf was said that crew in m1a1s not able to recognize friend or for over 2km.

8.There is also idea to make reloading guided rockets longer let say 10-15 sec.May be add some support text in yellow.

It will decrease amount of dead tanks with players.

Edited December 16, 2011 by kotov12345

[sickboy 13]

That sounds rather awesome Hladik!

[dr. hladik 231]

> So I'd rather decrease probability of GM (guided missile) to hit moving armor to 0.1-0.2 on highest speed.I assume that can be implemented much easier.

There is no fixed probability. It is based on rocket maneuvering capability (so if vehicle is moving probability is smaller).

> Will be logical to remove TAB to Lock for ground target at all.

I add per-turret parameter if TAB is enabled (not sure what our designers will do with it)

> But I'd keep it for Air targets within logical angle or green round as present now.

Configurable area for TAB search can be added.

> But to make it workable you need to see cursor which is off in vet mod.

Should all cursors in vehicles be enabled for vet?

> Also will be useful and realistic to have ability move mouse over radar and lock them directly on dots.

I'm afraid this will not happen.

> 3.Locking of not lockable ground weapons.

My previous post - see 6.